Cluster bombs.....

30 minutes ago, TheCallum said:

How what works?

What does the brace have to do with it? I have ECMs...

D'oh. Oops. I forgot those aren't Def Retros. I redact my second statement.

Kallus works with QLT? They're just so ineffective on their own... .5 avg dmg. With no rerolls. I guess you could conceivably Kallus, add a red/black, remove the blue with leading shots to make the red or black, but you're only getting 1/8 double hit on reds, might as well go blacks. Meh.

That whole thing starts to add up: 2x4 QLT, 3 kallus, 2x4 Leading shots, and one IS doesn't even have kallus. you're talking 19 points there. Yes for 8 points, I can see that another tie doesn't help that much, but at 19, you're getting a free aggressor. I think this depends on needing Leading shots for regular attacks too. whereas many builds won't fit those upgrades or eschew leading shots for other rerollers like Vader, Screed, DTTs, x17.

50 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Cluster bombs.....

Those I cant get behind cuz you're fudged if you go up against anything that can generate even 1 accuracy.

--

This list I'm a bit unhappy with. Feels like Bossk can be downed pretty easily (zertik can only protect one side of bossk). I'd also like to have a 6+ point bid, but I really don't want to lose to 134 squadrons, and we still have only 4 activations. and we're pretty light on AA squads.

I'd probably drop the 2nd DTT and drop mauler down to saber to get 8 points. And hope I can push aggro positioning to keep the ISDs relevant, which isn't easy against 6+ msu

Also, I prefer ISD2s over ISD1s with no defense retros. (not enough points!) At this point, its kind of a question of whether the whole QLTs (wow they're worth five points!) are even worth it.

IIZZ attempt.

Faction: Galactic Empire
Points: 400/400

Commander: Moff Jerjerrod

Assault Objective: Advanced Gunnery
Defense Objective: Contested Outpost
Navigation Objective: Solar Corona

Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)
- Skilled First Officer ( 1 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Quad Laser Turrets ( 5 points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets ( 5 points)
= 128 total ship cost

Imperial I-Class Star Destroyer (110 points)
- Agent Kallus ( 3 points)
- Flight Controllers ( 6 points)
- Quad Laser Turrets ( 5 points)
- Dual Turbolaser Turrets ( 5 points)
- Leading Shots ( 4 points)
= 133 total ship cost

[ flagship ] Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Moff Jerjerrod ( 23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 48 total ship cost

Gozanti-class Cruisers (23 points)
- Comms Net ( 2 points)
= 25 total ship cost

1 Bossk ( 23 points)
1 Zertik Strom ( 15 points)
1 Valen Rudor ( 13 points)
1 "Mauler" Mithel ( 15 points)

Card view link

Fleet

Quad laser turrets we're never meant to be a deterrent. if your opponent is bringing Squadron heavy he has to attack your ships if he's going to destroy them with his squadrons. However they do help bring down his squadrons little bit quicker. I have found that the best strategy when going up against pomalyst is destroying the farmers and avoiding the Intel. Because most fighter heavy list have decent AA. Long story short quad laser turrets help you take out enemy bombers a little faster and if you're going up against a bomber list you're just going to have to live with the fact that your ships are going to take a couple hits from them.

7 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

I like QLT on an ISD I with PDR, Kallus, and H9. You always deal 1 damage to scatter aces now.

You have to make a list with QLT to work. You can't just throw it in at the end because you have 5 points remaining and a slot available. You should have a plan to force squads to attack you and a way to deal extra damage to them.

Instigator engages squadrons and forces them to shoot you instead of your other ships(assuming you didn't fly in your squadrons as well). I think it might have been an intended combo.

13 minutes ago, Muelmuel said:

Instigator engages squadrons and forces them to shoot you instead of your other ships(assuming you didn't fly in your squadrons as well). I think it might have been an intended combo.

Instigator does not Engage Squadrons.

This interpretation of the rule in question is a shortcut, and incorrect, as it gives incorrect assumptions.

Instigator causes you to count as being engaged by 2 squadrons.

Instigator does not engage you with 2 squadrons.

Ergo, you are not engaged with Instigator, and you are free to shoot at who you want who is in range... This can be Instigator, or it can, indeed, be any other ship in range...

You're just not going ot be able to move while Instigator is doing its thing.

This has been Raised, Discussed, Explained and even Email Responded, and I think FAQ'd, all at one time or another

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

Instigator does not Engage Squadrons.

This interpretation of the rule in question is a shortcut, and incorrect, as it gives incorrect assumptions.

Instigator causes you to count as being engaged by 2 squadrons.

Instigator does not engage you with 2 squadrons.

Ergo, you are not engaged with Instigator, and you are free to shoot at who you want who is in range... This can be Instigator, or it can, indeed, be any other ship in range...

You're just not going ot be able to move while Instigator is doing its thing.

Oh yes well, you are right

That means instigator has to jump into the enemy squads before they come within distance 1of your other ships then.

It is a deterrent when you come along h9-warlord, if you do

11 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

In regular games, with regular lists... Probably not.

IN the Corellian Campaign... Where you are guaranteed to never have to face Rhymer as an Imperial Player?

GOLD

Please do not encourage Hrathen, I had a hard enough time not losing all my ships in our campaign.

They really only a deterrent against 1 die anti-ship attacks. Especially 1 blue die non-bomber attacks when you mop up the squadrons with your screen and your Interceptor or TIE Fighter squadrons have nothing better to shoot at. I mean it could help you if you are planing on going bomber heavy because once your squadrons are gone those single blue die damage begins to add up. But against an actual bomber even if it is a single die bomber not so much since bombers can do so much more with crits.

I'd like to try QLTs on the Warlord, but that takes away the Warlord's ability to be a good carrier.

Cluster bombs are sufficient because they vomit damage on anything other than an accuracy against a target that can't spend defense tokens against it. While you'll have that rare majority accuracy roll, there's a good chance of doing a chunk of 4 damage on a target fighter with no way to stop it. It goes a long way to crunching a lot of bombers out there, ripe for a squadron with snipe or whatever to pick them off. Only problem is, it's a discard. It IS nice insurance against Jan helping the bombers attack me though, because I can annihilate a bomber.

45 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

I'd like to try QLTs on the Warlord, but that takes away the Warlord's ability to be a good carrier.

Cluster bombs are sufficient because they vomit damage on anything other than an accuracy against a target that can't spend defense tokens against it. While you'll have that rare majority accuracy roll, there's a good chance of doing a chunk of 4 damage on a target fighter with no way to stop it. It goes a long way to crunching a lot of bombers out there, ripe for a squadron with snipe or whatever to pick them off. Only problem is, it's a discard. It IS nice insurance against Jan helping the bombers attack me though, because I can annihilate a bomber.

Also at 5 points and taking up the defensive retrofit, its just not worth it. 3 points? maybe. 4 points, theyre.. kinda still eh.

Same with QLTs. pretty eh for 5 points.

They have the potential to destroy aces and bypass scatter and brace tokens, which is why I think they were priced where they are. As you and I live in a universe where a very powerful fighter list is lurking, I've been more considerate of cluster bombs lately, along with offensive fighters of my own.

50 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

They have the potential to destroy aces and bypass scatter and brace tokens, which is why I think they were priced where they are. As you and I live in a universe where a very powerful fighter list is lurking, I've been more considerate of cluster bombs lately, along with offensive fighters of my own.

No, that's being warped by the meta, instead of warping the meta. Have a good time with those cluster bombs when you go up against 2 ISDs and 8 ties that don't bother attacking your ships. Or getting your brace targeted every attack.

(Lol. Sorry. )

Callum's build does surprisingly well at dealing with fighters/bombers. With 2 ISD2's in close support; for every bomber attack on one you'll likely get hit by:

1 Blue QLT

2 Blue AA from target ISD2

1 Blue AA from the other ISD2 (obstructed or it would be 2)

Then there's 1 (or 2 depending on the lifeboat situation) Gozanti's with black dice normally in close support and Mauler and a jumpmaster to pop in and damage everything. Both ISD's have Leading shots for when you roll 2 accuracies/crits and there's Kallus on 1.

It might not eliminate your fighters in 1 turn but it will soon whittle them down and the ISD's have the hull to survive. The list is a menace! However it is weak to MSU if flown well.

These sort of upgrades are a necessary evil due to the current game environment.

By which I mean - if you have 5 points, you want to be spending them on torpedoes or intel officers or missiles or turbolasers - something that makes your big fighty ship do what YOU want it to be doing! But instead we are having to compromise because the squadron game has gone from a side show into basically an unavoidable and decisive fight in itself.

Its sort of like mid-pacific war, when everyone realised that what was important in a ship was to 1) not die to bombers and 2) (most important), help keep the big ships dying from bombers. To that end we saw ships of all sizes losing all sorts of main batteries and "proper" guns to allow them to be festooned with AAA.

And even then all the flak in the world was very limited if you lost air superiority. Its the same situation here.

On a more practical note, QLTs are gold on an ISD2, because it means if they bomb you they are signing up for at least three blue dice. Add Kallus and leading shots if you can. Its funny when even Yavarised Bwings are thinking better of double bombing you and just bugging out of the fight after one mithel run.

If I could equip two, I'd probably not leave home out without them. I remember from my brief experiment with decimators and dengar that counter 1 just isn't anything worth spending points on.

12 minutes ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

If I could equip two, I'd probably not leave home out without them. I remember from my brief experiment with decimators and dengar that counter 1 just isn't anything worth spending points on.

And the way to do it is called Agent Kallus (or Toryn Farr for Rebels)

1 hour ago, pt106 said:

And the way to do it is called Agent Kallus (or Toryn Farr for Rebels)

Which helps with tokens, but not much else.

13 hours ago, Ophion said:

These sort of upgrades are a necessary evil due to the current game environment.

By which I mean - if you have 5 points, you want to be spending them on torpedoes or intel officers or missiles or turbolasers - something that makes your big fighty ship do what YOU want it to be doing! But instead we are having to compromise because the squadron game has gone from a side show into basically an unavoidable and decisive fight in itself.

Its sort of like mid-pacific war, when everyone realised that what was important in a ship was to 1) not die to bombers and 2) (most important), help keep the big ships dying from bombers. To that end we saw ships of all sizes losing all sorts of main batteries and "proper" guns to allow them to be festooned with AAA.

And even then all the flak in the world was very limited if you lost air superiority. Its the same situation here.

On a more practical note, QLTs are gold on an ISD2, because it means if they bomb you they are signing up for at least three blue dice. Add Kallus and leading shots if you can. Its funny when even Yavarised Bwings are thinking better of double bombing you and just bugging out of the fight after one mithel run.

If you play world of warships youd know that that's just utter baloney. The AA late war hulls of the american ships like destroyers are utter uncompetitive crap for the majority of teh games that you play without an overpowered carrier. (and theyre less and less overpowered now), and you end up losing tons of games simply cuz you don't have the effective damage per minute. They aren't fun either, trading automatic AA for your extra gun. You can see the stats for C-hull ships in taht game always are far under 48%.

Nope, that is a really bad way of viewing a game. If we also want to talk historically, planes entirely took over of the face of war post-WW2. Destroyers nowadays have literally 1 or 0 guns, and load nuclear missiles. I'll give you a hint, that's not fun either. And dogfighting also went away, its now replaced with accurate over the horizon air to air homing missiles.

If you want the real historical full story, ships were replaced entirely by squadrons (planes), and all previous classes of ships became defunct. We operate now with nuclear missile strikes, drone strikes, air bombing. And only the "large" modern size Destroyer, which serves as a communication hub and missile silo exists.

Either way, youre not getting the value of 5 points like DTT from QLTs. QLTs are not good and overpriced and yet the only possible of the few really sh*tty means of AA for ship-based solutions of defense.

That makes no sense: a yavaris bwing is hitting 2.5 avg damage per attack. times 6 is equal to 15 damage. enough to largely cripple an ISD. In response you got 2 QLT attacks: 0.5 x 2 = 1 dmg. And possibly another AA attack 0.5+0.75 = 1.25 per squadron. And since they can choose their engagement the best way is to tattakc from one side of the ISd where the other ISD isn't going to get flak shots off.

Also, regardless, THEY get the first attack either through FCT or just in the squadron phase or after out activating you. So.... you take 15 first, they lose half health (IF YOU ATTACK THE SQUADRONS), they finish you off next turn.

48 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Either way, youre not getting the value of 5 points like DTT from QLTs. QLTs are not good and overpriced and yet the only possible of the few really sh*tty means of AA for ship-based solutions of defense.

That makes no sense: a yavaris bwing is hitting 2.5 avg damage per attack. times 6 is equal to 15 damage. enough to largely cripple an ISD. In response you got 2 QLT attacks: 0.5 x 2 = 1 dmg. And possibly another AA attack 0.5+0.75 = 1.25 per squadron. And since they can choose their engagement the best way is to tattakc from one side of the ISd where the other ISD isn't going to get flak shots off.

Also, regardless, THEY get the first attack either through FCT or just in the squadron phase or after out activating you. So.... you take 15 first, they lose half health (IF YOU ATTACK THE SQUADRONS), they finish you off next turn.

How is a B-Wing averaging 2.5 damage per attack? 1 black + 1 blue=1.25 average. Yavaris will double that to 2.5. So that's 1 activation. 3 activations with a token can average 7.5 damage per round.

3 B-Wing Yavaris Attack: 7.5 average. 18 damage max.
QLT counter: 1 damage average total.
ISD I AA: 1.25 average

Brace the B-Wing attack: 6.75 average
Redirect: 6-7 damage
Shields Remaining: 3-4

2 B-Wing Yavaris Attack: 6 average
QLT counter: 1 damage average total.
ISD I AA: 1.25 average

Brace the B-Wing attack: 5.25 average
Redirect: 0 damage
Shields Remaining: 0
Hull damage: 1.25 and contain the last attack

Now, these are all averages, and most likely there will be a Tryn+BCC around. This will increase the average B-Wing attack to 2, or 2.125 if you reroll the initial hit into a hit/crit. If you take near to max damage in the alpha strike, that ISD will likely die next round.

If you are using an ISD I, you are likely moving at speed 2/3 so escaping a Yavaris B-wing trap is easy with some Navs. They might chase you to attack, but you aren't taking Yavaris attacks. I still think QTL is one of the best upgrades for an ISD I and II. The threat of dealing 1 damage is nice, and you should have a fighter screen that can deal with the B-Wings.

52 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

How is a B-Wing averaging 2.5 damage per attack? 1 black + 1 blue=1.25 average. Yavaris will double that to 2.5. So that's 1 activation. 3 activations with a token can average 7.5 damage per round.

3 B-Wing Yavaris Attack: 7.5 average. 18 damage max.
QLT counter: 1 damage average total.
ISD I AA: 1.25 average

Brace the B-Wing attack: 6.75 average
Redirect: 6-7 damage
Shields Remaining: 3-4

2 B-Wing Yavaris Attack: 6 average
QLT counter: 1 damage average total.
ISD I AA: 1.25 average

Brace the B-Wing attack: 5.25 average
Redirect: 0 damage
Shields Remaining: 0
Hull damage: 1.25 and contain the last attack

Now, these are all averages, and most likely there will be a Tryn+BCC around. This will increase the average B-Wing attack to 2, or 2.125 if you reroll the initial hit into a hit/crit. If you take near to max damage in the alpha strike, that ISD will likely die next round.

If you are using an ISD I, you are likely moving at speed 2/3 so escaping a Yavaris B-wing trap is easy with some Navs. They might chase you to attack, but you aren't taking Yavaris attacks. I still think QTL is one of the best upgrades for an ISD I and II. The threat of dealing 1 damage is nice, and you should have a fighter screen that can deal with the B-Wings.

Bail and Norsehound regularly face a very specific list designed to maximize B-Wings (and in the hands of an extremely skilled player, no less). It has between 2 and 3 BCC transports (depending on the specific variation) along with Toryn, Yavaris and Norra Wexley. And a Pelta with AFFM. And 3 B-Wings, Jan Ors, and other squadrons to bring it up to 134. The combination allows the B-Wings to operate very close to the maximum theoretical efficiency (which is 3 damage + a shield from Norra).

Also, the Black Bomber die averages 1 damage, and a blue bomber dice averages .75, for a baseline average of 1.75 damage. Add a shield point from Norra, and you already are doing effectively 2.75 damage before BCC rerolls.

1 hour ago, Onidsen said:

Bail and Norsehound regularly face a very specific list designed to maximize B-Wings (and in the hands of an extremely skilled player, no less). It has between 2 and 3 BCC transports (depending on the specific variation) along with Toryn, Yavaris and Norra Wexley. And a Pelta with AFFM. And 3 B-Wings, Jan Ors, and other squadrons to bring it up to 134. The combination allows the B-Wings to operate very close to the maximum theoretical efficiency (which is 3 damage + a shield from Norra).

Also, the Black Bomber die averages 1 damage, and a blue bomber dice averages .75, for a baseline average of 1.75 damage. Add a shield point from Norra, and you already are doing effectively 2.75 damage before BCC rerolls.

Man. He's lucky to live in a meta where people don't even take one BCC, let alone two and Norra! =) AND toryn far!

And that's just 3 out of the 9-10 squadrons in the list! =) Wow! Much dice, very good.

@Undeadguy

Also, its wholly and literally inefficent to take Yavaris and FCTs to allow turn 1 Yavaris-ing and Bwings and NOT take one BCC. That's just nonsense. Its also pretty nonsense to not use FCT, preferably two. And preferably two BCC, and toryn.

10 hours ago, Onidsen said:

Bail and Norsehound regularly face a very specific list designed to maximize B-Wings (and in the hands of an extremely skilled player, no less). It has between 2 and 3 BCC transports (depending on the specific variation) along with Toryn, Yavaris and Norra Wexley. And a Pelta with AFFM. And 3 B-Wings, Jan Ors, and other squadrons to bring it up to 134. The combination allows the B-Wings to operate very close to the maximum theoretical efficiency (which is 3 damage + a shield from Norra).

Also, the Black Bomber die averages 1 damage, and a blue bomber dice averages .75, for a baseline average of 1.75 damage. Add a shield point from Norra, and you already are doing effectively 2.75 damage before BCC rerolls.

Yup I just realized this morning I did not factor in the bombing dice.

9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Man. He's lucky to live in a meta where people don't even take one BCC, let alone two and Norra! =) AND toryn far!

And that's just 3 out of the 9-10 squadrons in the list! =) Wow! Much dice, very good.

@Undeadguy

Also, its wholly and literally inefficent to take Yavaris and FCTs to allow turn 1 Yavaris-ing and Bwings and NOT take one BCC. That's just nonsense. Its also pretty nonsense to not use FCT, preferably two. And preferably two BCC, and toryn.

Also, Blail, your initial response did not include any mods to the dice. You just mentioned B-Wing average 2.5 damage.

In NC, we play a variety of things. We don't constantly run the list over and over, and we are migrating to the "less-squad" lists now.

I'd disagree that you NEED to run more than 2 BCC. I'm fine with 1 and Toryn. I also never use 2 FCT because I rarely have 2 ships that can use them. To each their own I suppose.

PDT and Quads is 75% chance of damage on that counter1. its not bad. Add Kallus and it helps.

Quads will come in round 4+ when squadrons start getting down to 1hp. That being said if i have a chance to kill a ship I will throw my squadrons into the blender if the points work out. losing 4-5 squadrons to drop an ISD is worth it. to drop a ship worth 60pts, not so much.

Quad on Flechette Raider with Kallus does seem fun but then again, why would they even attack it at with their squadrons at that point.