1 minute ago, TallGiraffe said:

@Drasnighta are you building one upgrade fleets after the first? I am pretty sure if you retire a fleet, the next one is not limited to one upgrade.

"According to the Fleet Building Rules on Page 5."

Which includes 1 upgrade per ship.

Just now, Drasnighta said:

This is the tough bit:

If I'm attacking, that means I'm Player 1.

As Player 1, to maximise my advantage, I need to be able to out Deploy and/or out Activate my opponent. This is difficult, being 100 points Behind.

As Player 1, this means all Objectives are inherently advantaged to Player 2... my Opponent. I'm chosing from them, but ceding them the advantage.

As Player 1, I can go after Repair Yards, and hope they havnt built bases on them, as that makes life even more Difficult to Win.

As Player 1, I can go after Unoccupied territory - but building outposts still relies on winning the game , which is tough to do, being down in points, activations, deployments, Spynets and ceding my opponent the Player 2 Objective Advantage...

-Thank goodness rebels are cheaper, and by design able to out activate imperial forces.

-Then go after places with fixed objectives, like Asteroids, Nebula, etc.

-Its true, strategy will affect the game. Find a better target.

-If the slight player 2 advantage to objectives is going to be stronger then go for killing the small stuff.


An ISD is 110pts, which means if they didnt start with it they dont have it. An Imperial player may at most add a flottilla and a small base ship to his fleet after the start of the game. Rebel players squadrons require less backup, and have easier spam from transports and small or medium based ships. Use it to your advantage. Use your speed to your advantage. Use your ability to choose your attacks to your advantage.

Or dont, but dont blame the game for not using your advantages its providing you with.

You know, I think I'll just leave it as, "I'm leveraging every advantage I have (including a small, fast, Cracken Basted Fleet)..."

And lick of difference it does not make. I can't play a run away game, as the enemy has elements that are fast enough to catch, corner, pin, etc, and take me. I don't have the points for upgrades to even survive the "attempt to leapfrog and run" side of things, either. With Spynets, they're able to reposition their killer, even if I do out-deploy them and position well.

It certainly feels like every advantage I have, is being caught and flipped by a serious dis advantage being provided by the system.

I like to feel I'm not a stupid person, or a dumb player. Yes, I have some pretty abysmal dice rolls at time - but I'm not even counting those at this point. I'm not feeling like I have much of a chance given these circumstances. Perhaps they're circumstances that are being provided by having 3 Good Imperial Players on the opposite side. But I can't see my way out of this cycle right now... And I've attempted both running, and taking the fight to them in equal measure thusfar - and the advantages are just not there for me.

Maybe I just suck .

That could be it. Seems to be the easiest answer, doesn't it, rather than discussing things.

Do we need to do a lesson on how to play station assault?

First Rule: use obstacles to create a shield on one flank. Hide both stations behind this shield.

Second Rule: Have an ISD or MC80. They will need to go THROUGH you, and not around you.

Third rule: The game is going to be in a small area, so really no need for fast squadrons, Bwings will suffice.

Fourth rule: This is exactly the same as Hyperlane Raid, if the rebel player chooses to turtle on top of the stations..... the imperial player is going to struggle....

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

1) Multiple TRCing Arquitens and Jerry. With the ISD of Splattiness.

2) Victory Rhymerball of Doom

3) OzzelISD + Demolisher of Destiny. (Who is also packing all the Vector-Relay Phantoms)

You wont appreciate me saying this, but those are some lovely fleets.

Need bombers to take down the TRCkittens, they have no brace, so huge burst damage with X17s if possible the order of the day here.

Rhymerball of Doom, Well timed h9 MC30 runs on the vics, with Awings holding the bombers. Suspect Ewings are going to be needed to take out intel here. Its tough, really tough.

Yeah, good luck taking on Demo. Suspect bombers and huge burst damage again.

Just now, Ginkapo said:

You wont appreciate me saying this, but those are some lovely fleets.

Need bombers to take down the TRCkittens, they have no brace, so huge burst damage with X17s if possible the order of the day here.

Rhymerball of Doom, Well timed h9 MC30 runs on the vics, with Awings holding the bombers. Suspect Ewings are going to be needed to take out intel here. Its tough, really tough.

Yeah, good luck taking on Demo. Suspect bombers and huge burst damage again.

Well, SkyCake is the Victory RhymerDoomball Player (and Grand Admiral)... And LegionofBoom has the DemoDand. They're hardly "inexperienced" players and really shuffled their imperial choices well.

Its also very difficult to even conceptualise what I should do with a single Single-Upgrade Fleet as well.

- And can't access Jan, Norra, All Fighters Follow Me! or Hera, or any of the usual "Go Harder" Rebel Bombing Tricks.

Or Admonition, or Home One. Or Bright Hope.

6 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Well, SkyCake is the Victory RhymerDoomball Player (and Grand Admiral)... And LegionofBoom has the DemoDand. They're hardly "inexperienced" players and really shuffled their imperial choices well.

Its also very difficult to even conceptualise what I should do with a single Single-Upgrade Fleet as well.

- And can't access Jan, Norra, All Fighters Follow Me! or Hera, or any of the usual "Go Harder" Rebel Bombing Tricks.

Or Admonition, or Home One. Or Bright Hope.

http://armadawarlords.hivelabs.solutions/view_list.php?token=84517

If they want to win, they go THROUGH you. Start formation flying. Worth a shot at least.

As much as I wish I had access to TwinLiberty, I don't.

3 hours ago, Sekac said:

So you agree that killing a stationary and defenseless station is twice as hard as killing an ISD? Because that is mathematically false.

Your opinion might be that it doesn't matter in the long game and that's fine. That, to me, doesn't excuse objectively identifiable poor balance.

The thing is when you kill an ISD, your opponent loses 55/60 points and you gain 20 resources, not to mention going a long way to winning the objective 40... What does the rebel lose when a station blows up? nothing.

The reward is there, you just need the right kind of eyes to see it

15 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

As much as I wish I had access to TwinLiberty, I don't.

High hull, high salvo ships work, not just liberties.

MC30 and corvettes just dont cut it

16 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

The thing is when you kill an ISD, your opponent loses 55/60 points and you gain 20 resources, not to mention going a long way to winning the objective 40... What does the rebel lose when a station blows up? nothing.

The reward is there, you just need the right kind of eyes to see it

I had considered that, but:

1) That's irrelevant if they already have repair yard dominance.

2) That's irrelevant if they're already at 500 and have nothing else to spend their points on.

3) If I kill the ISD, but lose the battle, they still get more resources, whereas it is nearly impossible for rebels to come out ahead on Show of Force. An even split is usually best case scenario.

4) The scenario inherently plays to the strength of the ISD, so it's a case of high risk/low reward. Show of Force does not inherently favor rebel tactics.

5) If we ignore the above 5 points, you've got an argument as to why they should be worth the same points, but certainly not double .

On 22/02/2017 at 1:51 PM, SmurfWedge said:

Our campaign is 7-0 to the Imperials....with 2 more games to go in round 3. We (Rebels) just never recovered from the first round with lots of points going to unscar fleets. ISDs are potent as it's not easy to take one down....they can always speed 3 and get out of danger areas it seems.

Speed 3 ISD *is* the Dark Side of the Force!

11 hours ago, Milienius said:

Quite frankly in that situation you have been outplayed. I understand you got Thrawned by the Imperial GA but that signals to me you probably don't want to play with an asshat like that again.

I love it.

"You got Thrawned."

Was that a phrase already, or did that just get coined? At any rate, I want it to be a thing, so I'm declaring it a thing.

4 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Maybe I just suck .

That could be it. Seems to be the easiest answer, doesn't it, rather than discussing things.

Maybe you do, but Im not the one who said it.

Im saying that, regardless of whether your current setup is boned do to a dozen variables that are already well past us at this point the campaign as a whole does not punish rebel players, and there are usually ways to come back. Based on the other players in your rebel faction, the setup of the board, and of course luck.... that may not be possible for you, regardless of your skill. Because you may have just been straight up outplayed already.

I generally doubt it, but its possible. Happens in even the most balanced systems and the most forgiving ones.

So figure out where it went belly up and make sure it doesnt go down that way next time. Your loss doesnt mean the campaign is broken.

You say you have problems with hyperlane raid- why? Do you not have squadron superiority or is it a lack of dice pools on your ships? Did you neglect to take XI7s vs Imperials to negate their redirects? Is the Imperial player really, really good at formation flying so you having a hard time picking off single ships before running away?

How are you being chased down? Is it Demolisher? Raiders? Kittens? I see some of those in your remarks. Im sure you know that MC30s will win against Kittens and Demolisher needs to be hit by fighters early on, but have the lists you brought against them had those tools? Is it your list, is it the match ups? Or is the world just out to get you?

12 hours ago, Grey Mage said:

Maybe you do, but Im not the one who said it.

Im saying that, regardless of whether your current setup is boned do to a dozen variables that are already well past us at this point the campaign as a whole does not punish rebel players, and there are usually ways to come back. Based on the other players in your rebel faction, the setup of the board, and of course luck.... that may not be possible for you, regardless of your skill. Because you may have just been straight up outplayed already.

I generally doubt it, but its possible. Happens in even the most balanced systems and the most forgiving ones.

So figure out where it went belly up and make sure it doesnt go down that way next time. Your loss doesnt mean the campaign is broken.

You say you have problems with hyperlane raid- why? Do you not have squadron superiority or is it a lack of dice pools on your ships? Did you neglect to take XI7s vs Imperials to negate their redirects? Is the Imperial player really, really good at formation flying so you having a hard time picking off single ships before running away?

How are you being chased down? Is it Demolisher? Raiders? Kittens? I see some of those in your remarks. Im sure you know that MC30s will win against Kittens and Demolisher needs to be hit by fighters early on, but have the lists you brought against them had those tools? Is it your list, is it the match ups? Or is the world just out to get you?

No my loss does not mean the campaign is broken.

My continual losses shows me that there's at least something to look into there, as to why it is happening that way in multiple local campaigns here... Is it deliberately mismatched or accidentally so.

Would it be "fair turnaround" to run a campaign where the Rebels performed the Show of Force and the Imperials did a Hyperlane Raid for their Special Assaults?

That's what I'm railing against more than anything... I am looking at:

1) A Heavy Points Mismatch
2) a heavy Upgrade differential

And I am truly wondering what I can do to even survive a game to address one or the other... I don't mind the Underdog status. I mean, I live the Underdog status, being Mr. Statistically Abysmal and all...

But I'm struggling to even see what I can to do give myself a fighting chance .

Especially when the "advice" of "just run away for a game" still gets half my fleet destroyed.

Unfortunately, I'm not being specific enough about the circumstances here, versus the generalist advice given.

Besides, if MC30s "will win" against Arquitens, then I wouldn't be in this position in the first place, since that was the list that trashed me striaght up twice in a row at the start, and I had a pair of MC30s to begin with...

But hey, these are my problems, and I'll take them away from here, because essentially - I do believe there is an imbalance in teh system - and I'm seeing it with how I'm playing in a different campaign (as an Imperial), as well as monitoring 3 other local campaigns that are all going in the same directions, and in some cases, its in adversity to relative player skill as well..

So its anecdotally telling for me.

In my humble opinion I feel the Arqs do a lot for the Empire early on. You can field a few and a bomber or aas wing and be good until you can buy more ships.

Have any Rebel players tried making a fleet that can do well vs Empire turtles for the Hyperlane Raid objective, with a goal of destroying one fringe ship if they turtle? Seems a pretty easy thing to do against a turtle when you have a massive B-Wing bomber force backed by Yarvaris, Intel, Boosted Comms and/or Relay. One turn of attacks will pretty much kill anything focused fired. You only need to win by 1 point to get 40 resources.

Yeah.

Our Mon Mothma MC30/Corvette list can reach and kill a turtling ISD before the end of a Hyperlane Assault pretty easily.

5 minutes ago, Thraug said:

Have any Rebel players tried making a fleet that can do well vs Empire turtles for the Hyperlane Raid objective, with a goal of destroying one fringe ship if they turtle? Seems a pretty easy thing to do against a turtle when you have a massive B-Wing bomber force backed by Yarvaris, Intel, Boosted Comms and/or Relay. One turn of attacks will pretty much kill anything focused fired. You only need to win by 1 point to get 40 resources.

I'm pretty sure a shrimp swarm would do okay on it. Haven't faced a turtle with mine, but my fleet currently looks like this and I've won my two HR games so far:

CC Final Form (500/500)
======================
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 26)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
+ Admonition (8)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 23)
+ Lando Calrissian (4)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 20)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Concussion Missiles (7)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
MC30c Torpedo Frigate (63 + 18)
+ Skilled First Officer (1)
+ Ordnance Experts (4)
+ Assault Proton Torpedoes (5)
+ H9 Turbolasers (8)
Modified Pelta-class Assault Ship (56 + 11)
+ Entrapment Formation! (5)
+ Projection Experts (6)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 31)
+ Mon Mothma (30)
+ Quantum Storm (1)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 7)
+ Slicer Tools (7)
GR-75 Medium Transports (18 + 2)
+ Comms Net (2)

19 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

You know, I think I'll just leave it as, "I'm leveraging every advantage I have (including a small, fast, Cracken Basted Fleet)..."

And lick of difference it does not make. I can't play a run away game, as the enemy has elements that are fast enough to catch, corner, pin, etc, and take me. I don't have the points for upgrades to even survive the "attempt to leapfrog and run" side of things, either. With Spynets, they're able to reposition their killer, even if I do out-deploy them and position well.

It certainly feels like every advantage I have, is being caught and flipped by a serious dis advantage being provided by the system.

I like to feel I'm not a stupid person, or a dumb player. Yes, I have some pretty abysmal dice rolls at time - but I'm not even counting those at this point. I'm not feeling like I have much of a chance given these circumstances. Perhaps they're circumstances that are being provided by having 3 Good Imperial Players on the opposite side. But I can't see my way out of this cycle right now... And I've attempted both running, and taking the fight to them in equal measure thusfar - and the advantages are just not there for me.

Maybe I just suck .

That could be it. Seems to be the easiest answer, doesn't it, rather than discussing things.

So mail in a round and catch up your fleets.

1 hour ago, Tirion said:

So mail in a round and catch up your fleets.

Tried that. Got Caught and Stomped.

6 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Tried that. Got Caught and Stomped.

If you're really in such dire straits... Hyperlane Raid, turtle in the corner, hyperspace out on Turn 4. They can't possibly put that much damage on you by then, right...?

I mean, it would be a pretty awful game to have to play, particularly with the hoops you have to jump through to show up; and you'd be giving up some resources overall, but if they're already maxed out that won't really matter much anyway...

That's where I'm at now. Trying to fly parallel to the endzone in a Hyperlane Raid, after I sell to the rest of the Rebels its best for them to not get any resources that way by trying the raid itself.

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

If you're really in such dire straits... Hyperlane Raid, turtle in the corner, hyperspace out on Turn 4. They can't possibly put that much damage on you by then, right...?

I mean, it would be a pretty awful game to have to play, particularly with the hoops you have to jump through to show up; and you'd be giving up some resources overall, but if they're already maxed out that won't really matter much anyway...

I had the rebels do that in their own Hyper Raid...turtle, then hyper out.

And it was the right thing to do, the state of the fleets considering.

13 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

That's where I'm at now. Trying to fly parallel to the endzone in a Hyperlane Raid, after I sell to the rest of the Rebels its best for them to not get any resources that way by trying the raid itself.

Sounds like you're really on the ropes. How's the rest of your team doing?