I'm sure it can be better. But I thought this thread was about how awesome XWing is. Seems to be plenty of other discussion about all the many perceived issues.

"Everything is awesome" ;-)

Even though the first few comments read like satire, I'll go with a serious comment:

The space miniature game we're all playing, at the current state, is very healthy, I agree on this. There is a diverse meta and so on.
But you have to see that the space miniature game at the current state is a very different game from Wave 1-3 Star Wars X-Wing TMG.

Everyone focuses on the power- and complexity crep, but that's not the problem. It's simply an easy target and scapegoat.

More important are the detachment from iconic, main stream Star Wars ships, and even more important the change in game focus. @Stay On The Leader mentions it as his third point in the newest blog post, and I think he's on point there: we see a drastic refocusing on the activation phase - something that was a decision between Focus or TL, with the rare boost/barrel roll in early waves. But by now we see 2-4 actions per ship, routinely!

This leads to a change in skill requirements to be good at the game. List building became more important (and this boils down to netlisting for a huge amount of people) while flying and decision making are decreased in importance.

That leads to two important consequences:
1. Many players feel some kind of betrayal - the game changed under their nose and now their once carefully honed skills are less important
2. The game slowly loses the ability to provide a feeling of accomplishment. If I netlist Paratanni, Dengaroo or Commonwealth Defender and wipe the floor with homemade lists, what exactly is my own acchievement? The ability to use google? And how does that make the other players feel?

The game is played for fun, after all. And this new-ish development to focus on listbuilding instead of planning and combat decisions can potentially suck out the fun of the game. Combine this with a departure from Star Wars and you don't have to wonder when the game starts to lose its appeal.

Some people are happy, some people are unhappy.

The unhappy people have enough threads, let the happy people have theirs.

Fair enough
I do think that some understanding for "the other side" is beneficial for all though.
I'm not unhappy myself, as I like the increased complexity and the focus on list building.

But I do understand why many get more and more frustrated by this development. Circlejerking in either direction is not helping us as a community.

Finally a thread with proper attitute.

Thread for me

There are issues, but the game is overall in excellent shape.

It's normal that forum is more filled with whining and nerf threads, than with "cool" threads as it's nature of people: those unsatisfied write whining posts, while happy ones enjoy the game in the same time playing with friends

Uhappy people usually breeds pestilence

I just introduced 2 friends to the Heroes of the Aturi Cluster campaign. They've never played the full game before. One immediately asked how much the core set costs, saying "that's the most fun I've ever had while getting my a** kicked".

16 minutes ago, Parable said:

I just introduced 2 friends to the Heroes of the Aturi Cluster campaign. They've never played the full game before. One immediately asked how much the core set costs, saying "that's the most fun I've ever had while getting my a** kicked".

It's a wonderful way to introduce people to the game, speaking as someone who used to run an Aturi Cluster game.

So taking the first post seriously. If that's the way you (or others) actually feel, very good for you! That's wonderful. However, even the most staunch defenders of this game have to realize there are holes in it. Holes large enough to fly a star destroyer through. This game is good, but far from perfect. Forget perfect, perfection is unattainable, this game is good, but it could be very good, or great.

The game is great. I think the problem is the "rose colored glasses" for folks who have been here since the beginning (or early waves). It probably had issues back then that you complained about but just don't now because it was "the good old days".

I have a few minor concerns here and there, but there isn't any major catastrophe like the complainers are saying there is. My main concern goes into epic play anyway, not standard. The other one is the potential (as in it hasn't happened yet) risk of overcomplicating the game with too many conditions.

But overall, the game is fun and I'm happy to see so many options everywhere.

1 minute ago, ScummyRebel said:

I have a few minor concerns here and there, but there isn't any major catastrophe like the complainers are saying there is.

So do you disagree that the game changed significantly from early waves?

That increase in actions is not an opinion, it's a measurable fact. You are however arguing that people feel the wrong way about it - and discussing subjective opinions about objective facts is a bit nonsensical at best and rude at worst.

Game is great, but where is my Gunboat?

I love this game, its all I ever want to play. Even at work I'm constantly on the forums or list building. My only complaint is its dead in my area all the local store guys have moved on to Armada, its all they want to play when I try to get a group together. Can't even get games going at the college I work at, no one ever shows.

I literally just grabbed this core a few weeks ago and have been testing it out solo, I threw together a very cheap list with Miranda and Poe and will be testing it out for my first quarterly tournament in a few weeks. I have to say this game is pretty amazing. Still learning obviously, I am very confused by the flying techniques but I think the only way to learn that is to practice practice!

The community has been very supportive and informative as well, thanks for that.

Rebels have super strong lists available.

Miranda and whatever

Kannan Biggs Rex

Triple wardens

Scum has parratani and dengaroo

Imps have Commonwealth and decimator /whatever.

That's just the big leaguer stuff. You can still do well with lots of jank all around.

I just don't see the sky falling because some.ships aren't great right now. There is nothing out and about that isn't countered in more then one way.

In most cases the mole is just a mole. Skin cancer is incredibly rare.

9,500 people are diagnosed with skin cancer every day in the USA alone. Maybe a better example was needed?

Rebels are probably the weakest in terms of options but thats not to say they dont have any great lists either, just less diversity as most of them feel the same with a different ship doing it.

But i agree. Out of 32 small ships (counting shared faction ones) and 15 large ships i'd say only 4-5 of them are either utterly useless or been pushed to uselessness by new ships. As in bad enough where i wouldnt even use them in a casual game.

Its nowhere as well-rounded Armada is right now (Armada literally has 1 ship/squad that is pointless...the Phantom) but its still in a good state. Would be in a better state if they'd errata the JM5K already though.

15 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

I just don't see the sky falling because some.ships aren't great right now. There is nothing out and about that isn't countered in more then one way.

The sky already fell for all those people that liked the previous X-Wing. There is all this talk about X-Wing 2.0, but we're already there.

The core set introduction of 2 TIEs vs 1 T65, no upgrades and an extremely short activation phase, is very, very far away from what we play today at tournaments. That's just fact.

Dismissing feelings of people that miss this old version of the game is not constructive. The question and discussion should be if we want the game to continue down this path? If yes then the competitive game is not anymore for some players.

If you need one more example, just look at HotAC - it's simple, it's Star Wars with X/Y/A/B-Wings vs TIEs. That's just not happening anymore in tournaments. I'm not judging here, I'm merely observing. And yet it's something that immediately draws people in, any people joined because of Star Wars and the dogfighting with simple mechanics. But now they either like the more complex mechanics like ( @AceWing apparently) and stay because of them, or they are in for a heavy disappointment.

19 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

9,500 people are diagnosed with skin cancer every day in the USA alone. Maybe a better example was needed?

Out of 318 million people yes. There should be a better example.

Still...I get the point. And it's true.its worth bringing up things that need attention. I just can't find where the big flaws are in the overall game.

I'm seeing it brought up that most ships aren't good in a tournament...But...Like...I see that and think..Well most people can't do well in a Superbowl.

Like if I am coaching a football team. There are probably better choices of who to put in my kick the ball farther squad( I don't know football...I'm sure there's a name for that ).

So..I shouldn't let cousin Louie play because he's funny.i should let a " kick the ball better" guy do it.

Likewise...Porkins is fun...But porkins is not great to try and win an event with.

I think there are a few ways to play the game, which is good.

Competitive- Heavy emphasis on action-efficient/combo-effective lists. Needs way more skill at managing abilities and interactions. Players need to be knowledgeable about the latest waves and the overall tournament meta.

Casual- Bring what you want, fly what you like. Doesn't have to be the newest and greatest, but players still need to be up to date on the latest FAQ. I guess the focus would be an enjoyable experience more than victory-at-all-costs (not saying that competitive players don't want to have fun, just their focus is winning).

Narrative/Campaign- Like HotAC, these games are house-ruled and varied. Some ships/combos may be restricted/banned, or may have new limits placed on them. This style tends to be more like a traditional pen and paper RPG, where community and the overall story are the focus.

Overall, you can have a good time doing any of these. Obviously FFG is going to cater to the competitive set- they are who buy every wave/ship and attend the most tournaments. Doesn't mean that those who play more casually aren't wanted or appreciated, but this is a business and FFG has to make a profit.

I think the game is fairly balanced and in a decent spot right now. Yes, it is gaining complexity with more activation phase hijinks and Conditions, but given that it started from a very simple base the game is not overly complicated.

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Even though the first few comments read like satire, I'll go with a serious comment:

The space miniature game we're all playing, at the current state, is very healthy, I agree on this. There is a diverse meta and so on.
But you have to see that the space miniature game at the current state is a very different game from Wave 1-3 Star Wars X-Wing TMG.

Everyone focuses on the power- and complexity crep, but that's not the problem. It's simply an easy target and scapegoat.

More important are the detachment from iconic, main stream Star Wars ships, and even more important the change in game focus. @Stay On The Leader mentions it as his third point in the newest blog post, and I think he's on point there: we see a drastic refocusing on the activation phase - something that was a decision between Focus or TL, with the rare boost/barrel roll in early waves. But by now we see 2-4 actions per ship, routinely!

Personally I don't have a problem with this. Neither from a gameplay standard or a tone/theme based standard. Here's why:

Gameplay: Games evolve for a reason, to keep things from becoming stagnant. If every ship that ever came out played exactly like the first 4 ships, then everyone would be complaining that there are 30 ships and none of them feel different at all. There are only so many things you can modify without adding new mechanics or refocusing on existing ones.

Because of this a little bit of power creep is inevitable. New ships with refocused mechanics start outpacing more 'vanilla' ships, which are then re-balanced to keep up, both with new cards (TIE advanced and x-wings) and errata based changes (Heavy Syk).

This evolution certainly means that the game isn't the exact same as it once was. It would be dead if it was. The nice thing that FFG does is take the time to update the older ships to keep them in the game. Does this mean that at any particular moment everything is exactly balanced, and every ship sees equal play? Of course not, and it is certainly valuable to point out where there can be improvements. But let's be honest, considering the lengthy development cycle for only a handful of ships each year, FFG does a great job of pulling under performing ships into the meta.

Tone/Theme wise: The game does feel very different from the simple place movement template, pick one action format of the early days. That definitely felt a lot more like the dogfight in a New Hope. However, the movies evolved as more were released, Empire added new ships that weren't really dogfighters and new mechanics such as ships docking stealthily or hiding in debris fields. Return introduced massive fleet battles that definitely felt more chaotic and had a bit more of the randomness of something that scale. When 40 ships from each side are all flying straight at each other, you can be boned regardless of how great a pilot you are just by an unfortunate batch of focused fire.

To me, based on the development/production cycle, this game does an excellent job of promoting variety and pulling older ships from the scrapheap. Does that mean that you shouldn't voice your concerns? No of course not, we all help make the game a little better when we do. However, I don't think it is necessary to try to bring down one of the few celebratory posts on this forum with comments that we already get in all the 'nerf/fix/complaint' threads.

Just my two cents.

2 minutes ago, benbaxter said:

Personally I don't have a problem with this. Neither from a gameplay standard or a tone/theme based standard. Here's why:

That's nice. Neither do I. But do you recognize the reasons why many people do have a problem?

3 minutes ago, benbaxter said:

However, I don't think it is necessary to try to bring down one of the few celebratory posts on this forum with comments that we already get in all the 'nerf/fix/complaint' threads.

Do you need celebratory posts to have fun? If yes then maybe the state of the game is worse than I thought...

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's nice. Neither do I. But do you recognize the reasons why many people do have a problem?

Do you need celebratory posts to have fun? If yes then maybe the state of the game is worse than I thought...

I do understand why people would be upset, people inherently don't like change. We have an aversion to the 'new' or 'different'. The solution for that is to play in a way that is fun for you and not to demand that everyone be forced to play the game as it was 4 years ago.

*Puts on matching sarcasm hat* Do you only come to the forums to complain? If so I guess you aren't having fun even when you aren't playing.

I like birthday parties where everyone comes to have fun, and I don't need a Debbie Downer to show up everywhere I go. If I wanted a debate I would go to a political science class.

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Do you need celebratory posts to have fun? If yes then maybe the state of the game is worse than I thought...

No, but I've been in enough gaming communities to know that a toxic/complaint-driven forum is a recipe for losing players and interest in the game. X-Wing is not nearly as bad as some, but occasionally can be pretty grim. Having a decent opinion of the game and its current state is not a bad thing, nor is having a negative opinion. Seeing constant negative posts however, is not fun, nor are having the positive posts constantly hijacked by complaint threads useful.

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

So do you disagree that the game changed significantly from early waves?

That increase in actions is not an opinion, it's a measurable fact. You are however arguing that people feel the wrong way about it - and discussing subjective opinions about objective facts is a bit nonsensical at best and rude at worst.

Change != Catastrophe.

I made no claim that the game is identical today as it was in wave 1. Not only is that easily disproven, I wasn't there so I'd have no frame of reference.

The entirety of my post was put forward as a subjective opinion, and I never called anyone wrong, only that I disagreed with them. I explained one specific example of how people who have been involved in an activity tend to look back at the "old days" as better. This is simply human behavior, and I've seen it in many other hobbies before getting into xwing or seeing the forums here. I've probably even been "that guy" who saw the past as better than it actually was. It happens, and that isn't wrong. It's just something that does happen.