15 minutes ago, Jike said:

Agreed, but FFG have shown no willingness to adjust the base point cost of anything in the game so far. Also, this approach includes an element of future-proofing against new ships being undercosted (it shouldn't happen, but it does).

Yeah, this. You've got to work within the restraints provided, which appears to be that nothing outside the printed text box can be changed.

I don't feel like Mindlink needs a nerf. Nerfs should be reserved for cards that are invalidating entire list archetypes. For example, U-boats invalidated almost the entire rebel faction, while I would argue X7 and Dengaroo invalidate all swarm archetypes. I don't see Mindlink having this effect, as it doesn't particularly murderize any one list.

Yeah it dominates everyone equally.

Given that Parattani is probably a better jouster list than ANYTHING yet seen, /x7 and Dengaroo included, it's safe to say it invalidates Swarms - the fact that they were already invalidated notwithstanding.

1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:

Given that Parattani is probably a better jouster list than ANYTHING yet seen, /x7 and Dengaroo included, it's safe to say it invalidates Swarms - the fact that they were already invalidated notwithstanding.

Funny you should mention this now.

I just finished a quick solo test game (because my next gaming session is not until the weekend) of Parattanni into TIE Swarm. I thought TIEs would win as they beat jumpmasters. Turns out TIEs are slower than I remembered, and Parattanni has too many tokens. TIEs were getting smashed and missing their shots.

It's not a definitive test as it's solo (no AI was used) and a very small sample, but the result did surprise me. I don't know which is supposed to win, but I thimk you need to play the match before deciding whether or not you want to play a swarm into it.

edit: I'm wishing I'd done a new thread for this, as this should be for tournament results. I can't seem to move or delete it.

It might be a better jouster than x7's in purely mathematical terms (I.e. in a vacuum), but it's not when played as it should be played (I.e. in reality).

Every ship in an x7 list is expected to get stuck in and contribute to the list's offensive output. Manaroo is expected to run and hand out tokens to the list's heavy hitters, so you might as well ignore her contribution to the jousting stats, because if she's getting involved in the melee she's doing it wrong.

1 minute ago, Moppy said:

Funny you should mention this now.

I just finished a quick solo test game (no AI sillyness) of Parattanni into Tie Swarm. I thought TIEs would win as they beat jumpmasters. Turns out TIEs are slower than I remembered, and Parattanni has too many tokens. TIEs were getting smashed and missing their shots.

It's not a definitive test as it's solo and a very small sample, but the result did surprise me. I don't know which is supposed to win, but I thimk you need to play the match before deciding whether or not you want to play a swarm into it.

I mean, a well-played Fenn on his own should be about able to outjoust an entire TIE Swarm with Manaroo offscreen feeding him tokens. Drive into range 1, nuke Howlrunner before she can fire (TL/focus on 5 dice probably pops a TIE in a single shot), laugh as you need to get 2 results on your 4 dice to evade the remaining shots which are averaging 1.8ish hits rather than the 2.5 they get before howl pops, repeat until they're all dead.

3 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

It might be a better jouster than x7's in purely mathematical terms (I.e. in a vacuum), but it's not when played as it should be played (I.e. in reality).

Every ship in an x7 list is expected to get stuck in and contribute to the list's offensive output. Manaroo is expected to run and hand out tokens to the list's heavy hitters, so you might as well ignore her contribution to the jousting stats, because if she's getting involved in the melee she's doing it wrong.

Not remotely. I've seen Manaroo be played a lot more aggressively in Parattani than in most lists. Sure, she's not that likely to hit an x7 on her own, but blocking them still helps, and once they've spent their tokens, even a 2-pwt can scratch them.

And from bumped in the right place, a hard-1 and barrel roll can block virtually any move the Defender can make if you guess it right.

9 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

It might be a better jouster than x7's in purely mathematical terms (I.e. in a vacuum), but it's not when played as it should be played (I.e. in reality).

Every ship in an x7 list is expected to get stuck in and contribute to the list's offensive output. Manaroo is expected to run and hand out tokens to the list's heavy hitters, so you might as well ignore her contribution to the jousting stats, because if she's getting involved in the melee she's doing it wrong.

Manaroo won't run in Parattanni. If you don't believe me, watch the Yavin winner. Guy was often leading with Manaroo.

Yeah, Manaroo's a brawler in Paratanni. It's why the mooted range restriction on Manaroo doesn't really hurt Paratanni much.

I'm trying the Paratanni match with my A-Wing Snap Shots a bit at the moment, and it's a similar story to what @Moppy says happened to him. The Snap Shots in my list are a big help but you're walking a tight rope against Fenn - ignore him and he'll eat your ships, swarm him from the front and Concord Dawn Protector will kick your ass, don't kill him on the initial engage and he'll come around behind you and eat your ships.

It's possible to win the match with a swarm but I think it's uphill. When you DO manage to get rid of Fenn it gets easier as Asajj and Manaroo struggle to punch through your green dice, but even then you've got a narrow window to do damage because if you get down to just 2 ships left or something then Asajj will tank you all day long.

And don't forget it's the typical bumping swarm strategies that struggle against Mindlink... you've lost a key swarm tool in the matchup. I'd much rather chase Soontir than Fenn Rau with a swarm.

We will see very shortly whether a response from FFG is necessary. If there is a counter to Parattani, we will see it soon. The distributed hive-mind is aware of the problem and working feverishly on a solution... I'm skeptical that they will find one.

Edit: and why not? Here's my suggestion add this line to Mindlink via errata: "You may not attack targets outside of your primary firing arc."

How about for Manaroo:

At the start of the Combat phase After you perform an action, you may assign all focus, evade, and target lock tokens assigned to you to another friendly ship.

Its a pretty slight nerf, but it does make the decision on where to send tokens a bit more difficult. You do not have the whole board available to you to make that decision. It also allows for blocking on Manaroo and negating her ability. If she cannot perform an action her ability does not go off.

4 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

We will see very shortly whether a response from FFG is necessary. If there is a counter to Parattani, we will see it soon. The distributed hive-mind is aware of the problem and working feverishly on a solution... I'm skeptical that they will find one.

Edit: and why not? Here's my suggestion add this line to Mindlink via errata: "You may not attack targets outside of your primary firing arc."

FFG move verrrrry slow on this sort of thing.

If there's going to be a change I think they'll wait until a couple of weeks before Worlds again, like they did with Deadeye. See if it works itself out without them needing to do anything.

3 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

We will see very shortly whether a response from FFG is necessary. If there is a counter to Parattani, we will see it soon. The distributed hive-mind is aware of the problem and working feverishly on a solution... I'm skeptical that they will find one.

Ditto. One of the things that makes parattani so good is that it's exceptionally well-rounded and lacking in significant weaknesses.

For my money the best fix is for Mindlink: append 'You cannot be assigned more than one focus token. You cannot be assigned more than one stress token.' Dramatically limits the level of synergy available via Manaroo (give her K4 and Mindlink and she can still spot very effectively for Fenn though) and removes the token stacking entirely.

If you run Manaroo out of the fight, you're not using Paratanni right. Excepting fringe cases where it actually is a good idea, I guess, though none come to mind right now.

I played my first kit tournament by keeping Manaroo out of it, and I finished 3-1 with a very narrow loss, but ungodly long games. I wised up and brought her to the fight at the Ottawa regional, going 5-1 and getting overall runner-up (so 7-2 over that stupidly long day). Of the 3 mirror match I faced, two kept Manaroo away, they lost. The final match was a tight one where I made one mistake with Fenn that was smartly capitalized on. He also kept Manaroo in the thick of it. I was still running Manaroo until she finally croaked, but she got hits and crits in along the way and with some luck (a lot), could have actually turned the game. My MoV was fantastic

She's an awesome blocker and she can actually hit stuff, particularly since she'll be at range 1 of many ships and generally not shot at that much. Though if you want to focus on her, be my guest.

I'm by no means an expert at it since I'm not one to "get reps in," but across those 2 tournament and the one Vassal league match, I kept her in the fight and she more than pulled her weight.

9 hours ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I think Attani Mindlink is a problem. As I've replied somewhere else I've got a scum list that's just... it's just junk, utter junk. But all four ships have Attani Mindlink so it's actually extremely good. Whenever I think 'oh yeah its not Mindlink' I remember what all of my opponents have said when they've had to play against my pile of junk Mindlink list.

I chewed up Duchess, Quickdraw and Maarek last night with just... with garbage. Garbage with Mindlink.

To be clear, I am not disagreeing with you. But, I think the Mechanic Creep is the problem, otherwise you would see more Jank list with Mindlink like I have flown myself.

Let's do a mental exercise in order for me to demonstrate why I am pointing to Mechanic Creep as a problem rather than a strong card. Please don't dig into the details as this could be a whole "fix" thread itself, but the big picture.

Example, What if B-Wings were a little different in their mechanics.

Please ignore that they are small versus big as there are pros and cons. Let's make an assumption that we are only looking at offensive capability (not defensive).

Now, imagine if you will that B-Wings have the Jumpmaster Dial. Then imagine a build that includes them with FCS which is "similar" to Mindlink statistically on offense.

Now imagine that with the exception of one move, they will always have a green or white maneuver and therefore stress is minimal. Since most lists are Paratanni let's assume there are three named pilots with special abilities and/or crew.

Imagine how this game would go against most builds. Might not win all the time, there are weaknesses, but if flown well I bet that list would EAT so many other lists.

Or if you want a large based example, .imagine that the U-Wing has native barrel roll action, all have EPT, and the same dial as either the JM5K or Shadowcaster (and agility of 2). Imagine what it could do now?

I think you would find that the Maneuver Dial would give players a much better capability to UTILIZE the action efficiency that is found in FCS. I believe this is the same reason for Mindlink. If I knew a large based ship only had 4 green manuevers, either in the 1 range or 2 range, then as an opponent I have a better knowledge and "control" of the gamestate. But with S-Loops, 5 green forwards, SB and other illicits, green 3 Turns or banks (with astromech if required)....I mean...how do you control or coral. So the only "negative" of the stress, the "punishment" has been removed. This punishment still exists on rebel ships, and Imperial do not have multi-toolsets.

This is why I am agreeing with you that Mindlink is powerful (since Stress is limited to 1 total) BUT pointing out that the MECHANIC CREEP of the scum large based ship maneuver dial is what changes how powerful this build can be rather than other Mindlink builds.

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Ditto. One of the things that makes parattani so good is that it's exceptionally well-rounded and lacking in significant weaknesses.

For my money the best fix is for Mindlink: append 'You cannot be assigned more than one focus token. You cannot be assigned more than one stress token.' Dramatically limits the level of synergy available via Manaroo (give her K4 and Mindlink and she can still spot very effectively for Fenn though) and removes the token stacking entirely.

K4 and Mindlink won't work unless you drastically cut upgrades on Fenn. Parattanni is already 100 points and Assajj only has Latts, so there's no room for a K4 unless you cut Autothrusters and the title.

+2 to JM5K cost (and move the Jankymech slot to the Punishing One title, which goes to 10 or 11 points). Parattani now has to decide between Latts on Asajj or Autothrusters on Fenn.

And the JM5K -- sans Punishing One title -- is simply undercosted. It needs to be reined in, because it has so many good slots -- and thus can make so many combinations -- if it's not reined in, people will continue to create dominant lists with it. U-Boats, Dengaroo, Parattani ... if Mindlink is nerfed instead of JM5K, you're not actually fixing the one factor these dominant lists have in common.

I know this is major errata. But it's the real fix for the actual problem. JM5K's undercosting is the source of most of the game's recent problems.

(As far as Mindlink ... I do think it's good, but I'm not convinced it needs a nerf, the way I'm convinced JM5K needs a nerf. I'm personally okay with Mindlink lists being "good" or even "very good." My only issue is with "dominant." But if there is a Mindlink nerf, it should be simple: double-dot (i.e., only two per list.)

16 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

+2 to JM5K cost (and move the Jankymech slot to the Punishing One title, which goes to 10 or 11 points). Parattani now has to decide between Latts on Asajj or Autothrusters on Fenn.

And the JM5K -- sans Punishing One title -- is simply undercosted. It needs to be reined in, because it has so many good slots -- and thus can make so many combinations -- if it's not reined in, people will continue to create dominant lists with it. U-Boats, Dengaroo, Parattani ... if Mindlink is nerfed instead of JM5K, you're not actually fixing the one factor these dominant lists have in common.

I know this is major errata. But it's the real fix for the actual problem. JM5K's undercosting is the source of most of the game's recent problems.

(As far as Mindlink ... I do think it's good, but I'm not convinced it needs a nerf, the way I'm convinced JM5K needs a nerf. I'm personally okay with Mindlink lists being "good" or even "very good." My only issue is with "dominant." But if there is a Mindlink nerf, it should be simple: double-dot (i.e., only two per list.)

If you took away the mech the generic would be an expensive ordnance carrier(now needing K4 to get target locks reliably).

Mindlink limit 2 guts the card- mindlink is a card that really needs to be 3+ to be of much value(I think in most situations mindlink needs to be on 4 ships to have amazing value, but Manaroo does make this easier).

Any Parattanni list with only 2/3 ships Mindlinked? My suspicion is that the overall effectiveness of the Parattanni list would drop off significantly if you took Mindlink off one ship (even if that ship wasn't Manaroo). If that's true (and I suspect it is) Mindlink isn't the problem. Parattanni is just a corner case that hits a sweet spot. It's simply a perfectly efficient combination of ships and upgrades. If Mindlink was the issue Mindlink lists would have been dominating for a while. Bad reason to reactionarily nerf something. Especially given the results of some of FFGs previous nerfs.

38 minutes ago, Panzeh said:

If you took away the mech the generic would be an expensive ordnance carrier(now needing K4 to get target locks reliably).

Mindlink limit 2 guts the card- mindlink is a card that really needs to be 3+ to be of much value(I think in most situations mindlink needs to be on 4 ships to have amazing value, but Manaroo does make this easier).

Or it can be a blocker. Or it can take Punishing One. Removing the Jankymech from the base JM5K is not going to kill the ship, giving how exceptional it is, with upgrades and stat-line.

I don't think there's enough data on whether Mindlink (limit 2) would "gut the card." I personally don't think it will -- just for instance, I know people who swear by Mindlink Brobots -- and I can't think of a fix that isn't much worse for the card. (And remember, as I said, I'm not convinced it needs a nerf. A JM5K nerf targets the same problem list, and might be enough. And has the added advantage of fixing something that's definitely too good.)

12 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Or it can be a blocker. Or it can take Punishing One. Removing the Jankymech from the base JM5K is not going to kill the ship, giving how exceptional it is, with upgrades and stat-line.

I don't think there's enough data on whether Mindlink (limit 2) would "gut the card." I personally don't think it will -- just for instance, I know people who swear by Mindlink Brobots -- and I can't think of a fix that isn't much worse for the card. (And remember, as I said, I'm not convinced it needs a nerf. A JM5K nerf targets the same problem list, and might be enough. And has the added advantage of fixing something that's definitely too good.)

I understand the thinking on the trashtromech becoming part of the title. Makes sense fluff-wise too. However, the barrel-roll action is maybe one of the biggest strengths of the JM5K chassis and locking barrel roll to the title would really help.

Off-topic: Why wouldn't FFG allow individual pilots with unique action bars? Seems like a missed opportunity.

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Or it can be a blocker. Or it can take Punishing One. Removing the Jankymech from the base JM5K is not going to kill the ship, giving how exceptional it is, with upgrades and stat-line.

I don't think there's enough data on whether Mindlink (limit 2) would "gut the card." I personally don't think it will -- just for instance, I know people who swear by Mindlink Brobots -- and I can't think of a fix that isn't much worse for the card. (And remember, as I said, I'm not convinced it needs a nerf. A JM5K nerf targets the same problem list, and might be enough. And has the added advantage of fixing something that's definitely too good.)

What if Attanni only assigned one focus token/stress to another ship with attani rather than to all? This is very similar to the effective limit of having just two in a list in terms of action economy but still gives you the option to take more in a list. There's also still use to having three or more in the sense of having more choices for who takes the focus and who ends up with the extra.

22 minutes ago, AlexW said:

What if Attanni only assigned one focus token/stress to another ship with attani rather than to all? This is very similar to the effective limit of having just two in a list in terms of action economy but still gives you the option to take more in a list. There's also still use to having three or more in the sense of having more choices for who takes the focus and who ends up with the extra.

That would make Attani really weak without Manaroo.

39 minutes ago, Panzeh said:

That would make Attani really weak without Manaroo.

I think it would put it on par with other upgrades that award other abilities, especially since it doesn't have a range restriction. Fleet Officer costs an action and hands out a stress for three points. Operations Officer (?) costs 3, requires a miss and can be useful or not depending on the timing of the situation.