Whereas even at Yavin, where it was prevalent, I only played against it once, and that was my first time ever (and I've been to 2/3 events since it came around)

And I'd say number of lists counts as people complain when a card is unusable/never seen. So if a card is only working in one list, then gets changed and isn't used in any, isn't that just removing one problem and adding to another?

Did the triple jumps need a tweak? Yes. Will Deadeye now go back to being unused like it was before Jumps? Most likely. So you've just relegated a card because of one list that worked too well.

Don't want that to keep happening, no matter the list or card. That's all I'm saying.

Which is why I'm saying that the card just needs a nudge. Maybe just putting a range restriction on it, so a ship that's completely out of the fight isn't feeding two others that are, or putting one on Manaroo to ensure she has to be somewhere close to the fight if she wants to feed someone double tokens.

Ah yeah that would be fairly cool. Wouldn't mess with other lists too much, would just nerf Paratinni enough to REALLY make it a list based on flying more than the action economy itself. Would a range restriction on the card be for the stress too? Like you are totally out of range of your 'mindlink' like a radio lol

I don't have experience with the card, but it seems to me that the problem with Attani Mindlink is that it is very difficult to give a good points value to. All cards are more or less valuable depending on how they are used and what the opponent uses, but I suspect that Attani is an extreme example of this: too cheap and this is multiplied, too expensive and that is also multiplied. So as far as there is a problem, maybe it can not be solved. They can't make a cost variable, it has to be printed on the card.

"Nerfing an upgrade into oblivion" is not a huge problem though. I don't feel cheated because I bought Blaster Turret and Saboteur, even though both are not very good. FFG doesn't appear to be in the business of boosting specific upgrades, except maybe some attempts to bring Advanced Proton Torpedoes into the game and the change to Cluster Bombs (we got the templates, after all). Failed upgrades are left by the wayside as life's loose change.

1 minute ago, Verlaine said:

"Nerfing an upgrade into oblivion" is not a huge problem though. I don't feel cheated because I bought Blaster Turret and Saboteur, even though both are not very good.

Oh I meant that, for example, say down the road a ship/list FINALLY gave blaster turret/saboteur a use. But then a list with them tops the meta for a while and the cards get changed so they don't work as well. Then they'd be back in their "who uses those?" level.

But yes a card that means taking it on each ship means it's hard to price really. But I think 2pts (and 2 slots) plus per list is pretty decent. As above, a range restriction would be a decent (but not OTT) fix for it.

Atanni Mindlink is not a problem. The Fang Fighter is not a problem. The MECHANICS Creep for large based ships like the JM5K and Shadowcaster IS the problem.

No nerf needed. Just better lists to defeat them.

15 hours ago, Terminus-Est said:

Going though this, I was impressed by Kester Smith's performance against Parattani in the last few rounds — something like 2-0 vs. that list and a win vs. Kavil/Manaroo/Fenn with Vader and a Kenkirk Palpimator. Does anyone know how he flew it?

Prima facie, this has some similarities to Cal Jones' Heragator, if only in the sense that it leans on a boosting fat turret with two guaranteed evades at R3. Of course, if that was all it took, Fat Han would be cleaning house...and we've got the usual caveats about small sample sizes, etc.

On an unrelated note, does anyone know if Cal's Heragator ever did face a Parattani before the final?

Be interested to know about this Deci list too. Kenkirk Palp is my favourite Decimator build, was he on stream at all?

What are people's thoughts on VI instead of Predator on Vader to help arc dodge Fenn?

Like I said in another thread. The current 'Scumpremacy' we're experiencing is more a result of the poor balancing of the Jumpmaster chassis, and Manaroo's exceptional support ability, than the power of Attanni Mindlink (though it's a great card). Just consider all the recent dominant scum lists; U-boats, Dengaroo, and Paratanni. They all have one ship in common. Even the '2nd-tier' Scum stuff typically contains at least one jumpmaster (Bossk + Dengar alphastrike, and Fenn + Teroch + Manaroo, etc).

Also, whilst I don't consider the Shadowcaster to be too badly undercosted (only a little), I do wish the design team would reserve the green hard-turns for dedicated dogfighters like the Interceptor, A-wing, and Fang fighter. It's half of what makes Asajj so good in the Paratanni list, and makes stress a lot less effective in shutting it down.

I believe Shadowcaster was meant to be a PTL-friendly ship, hence the dial. It was supposed to be balanced by the relative awkardness of being constrained to either speed 2-4 straight maneuvers or speed 3 banks/turns. I've tried running Assajj like that early on after wave IX launched and it was a real positioning challenge to keep Assajj in the fray and at optimal range without bumping or moving through asteroids. Those fast maneuvers really do take her far. Of course that problem goes out of the window once you start relying on Mindlink instead. Clearing stress isn't a huge problem on Assajj if you only have to do it occasionally.

12 hours ago, InterceptorMad said:

Whereas even at Yavin, where it was prevalent, I only played against it once, and that was my first time ever (and I've been to 2/3 events since it came around)

And I'd say number of lists counts as people complain when a card is unusable/never seen. So if a card is only working in one list, then gets changed and isn't used in any, isn't that just removing one problem and adding to another?

Did the triple jumps need a tweak? Yes. Will Deadeye now go back to being unused like it was before Jumps? Most likely. So you've just relegated a card because of one list that worked too well.

Don't want that to keep happening, no matter the list or card. That's all I'm saying.

You may only have played it once, but if you managed to make the cut, your chances of encountering it next match could go as high as 75-80%. No single list should ever dominate like that. It means the game isn't healthy.

As for the Deadeye analogy - it is used on bombers, though the archetype is fairly inflexible and hence not very popular. The problem though isn't that the card was "relegated" because it worked too well in one list. If Deadeye had been used in another big ship list and that archetype was destroyed as a collateral damage of nerfing u-boats, you'd have a point. But it wasn't - u-boats were the only ones using Deadeye and it didn't make much sense on any other big ship. Hence, the Deadeye nerf was essentially the u-boat nerf and that's it. It's hard to argue that Deadeye was turned from a fantastic card to a mediocre one if it was never used anywhere else to begin with.

11 hours ago, rilesman said:

Atanni Mindlink is not a problem. The Fang Fighter is not a problem. The MECHANICS Creep for large based ships like the JM5K and Shadowcaster IS the problem.

No nerf needed. Just better lists to defeat them.

I think Attani Mindlink is a problem. As I've replied somewhere else I've got a scum list that's just... it's just junk, utter junk. But all four ships have Attani Mindlink so it's actually extremely good. Whenever I think 'oh yeah its not Mindlink' I remember what all of my opponents have said when they've had to play against my pile of junk Mindlink list.

I chewed up Duchess, Quickdraw and Maarek last night with just... with garbage. Garbage with Mindlink.

9 hours ago, Goseki1 said:

Be interested to know about this Deci list too. Kenkirk Palp is my favourite Decimator build, was he on stream at all?

What are people's thoughts on VI instead of Predator on Vader to help arc dodge Fenn?

Depends on the rest of the list, but in the current meta I'd usually prefer Adaptability and save a point. PS8 and PS9 are the important numbers, there's almost nothing at PS10, only really RAC and the occasional Duchess.

And perhaps more to the point, unless your list is at 100 points, even a 1 point bid is enough to outbid Parattani, so that might be plenty to allow you to keep your rerolls.

The Ghost list that came second... while I absolutely admire the creativity and piloting to come up with it, surely it has to make for some seriously boring games of X-Wing as he kites you around the table? It makes playing against Quad TLT look like a party where everyone's invited.

19 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

The Ghost list that came second... while I absolutely admire the creativity and piloting to come up with it, surely it has to make for some seriously boring games of X-Wing as he kites you around the table? It makes playing against Quad TLT look like a party where everyone's invited.

+1

I have to admire how it overcomes the Ghost's lack of defense and vulnerability to certain crits (especially the one that reduces the number of dice rolled). It has most of the advantages of Kanan+Biggs list without most of it's most glaring weaknesses. I do hope it won't become popular though... It has Dengaroo level of frustration written all over it.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I think Attani Mindlink is a problem. As I've replied somewhere else I've got a scum list that's just... it's just junk, utter junk. But all four ships have Attani Mindlink so it's actually extremely good. Whenever I think 'oh yeah its not Mindlink' I remember what all of my opponents have said when they've had to play against my pile of junk Mindlink list.

I chewed up Duchess, Quickdraw and Maarek last night with just... with garbage. Garbage with Mindlink.

..OK, so we're saying an upgrade which makes underpowered ships usable is bad for the game now?

What you're saying there is a positive, not a negative.

6 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

..OK, so we're saying an upgrade which makes underpowered ships usable is bad for the game now?

What you're saying there is a positive, not a negative.

And if it was only usable on underpowered ships I would agree!

I'm really conflicted on Mindlink, I mean I wrote two blogs saying how much I liked it and the creative lists it was letting people make! But I think it's been demonstrated to be too good for its cost. The Manaroo/Mindlink combination is far too good for the cost required to access it, and I fear that if you hit that element but leave Mindlink intact it's just going to keep popping up as a problem in other builds. It's going to be like a Biggs that restricts all future Scum designs.

So what's the solution? Make Attanni small ship only?

It's a shame we've never seen a direct change to a pilot card, because removing Manaroo's Elite Talent slot would make a big difference (and is likely the only nerf really needed).

11 hours ago, Goseki1 said:

Be interested to know about this Deci list too. Kenkirk Palp is my favourite Decimator build, was he on stream at all?

What are people's thoughts on VI instead of Predator on Vader to help arc dodge Fenn?

Kester's being flying that list a very long time. Once Kenkirk loses his first hull point, he's suddenly a 2 evade ship every turn, making it very hard to blast him away, especially with Vader sitting behind you and the decimator shooting you to pieces!

Unless I'm mistake all they've ever done is affect the text of cards, not their cost, statline or associated symbology.

6 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

So what's the solution? Make Attanni small ship only?

It's a shame we've never seen a direct change to a pilot card, because removing Manaroo's Elite Talent slot would make a big difference (and is likely the only nerf really needed).

Maybe Attanni's cost should increase with each added card. Like the first is 1, the second 2, the 3rd 3 points, etc. So 3 Mindlinks would cost 6 points. Or some other progression, like a cost equal to the number of cards in play, for every card. 3 mindlinks would then be 9 points.

Just now, Verlaine said:

Maybe Attanni's cost should increase with each added card. Like the first is 1, the second 2, the 3rd 3 points, etc. So 3 Mindlinks would cost 6 points. Or some other progression, like a cost equal to the number of cards in play, for every card. 3 mindlinks would then be 9 points.

Overly complicated and pointless.

You're never going to play 1 Mindlink, pretty much nobody uses 2, and 16 points for 4 is so prohibitively expensive nobody would use it. You're functionally just making it cost 3 each, at which point you may as well just ban it for all the use it will see.

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

Overly complicated and pointless.

You're never going to play 1 Mindlink, pretty much nobody uses 2, and 16 points for 4 is so prohibitively expensive nobody would use it. You're functionally just making it cost 3 each, at which point you may as well just ban it for all the use it will see.

That's not what I wrote.

1 minute ago, Verlaine said:

Maybe Attanni's cost should increase with each added card. Like the first is 1, the second 2, the 3rd 3 points, etc. So 3 Mindlinks would cost 6 points. Or some other progression, like a cost equal to the number of cards in play, for every card. 3 mindlinks would then be 9 points.

That's one of the better ideas for Mindlink, IMO. It directly addresses the problem with balancing it since the card just gets better and better with each ship that takes it.

I was all for doing something about Manaroo's ability (and I do still think a range limitation would be welcome on her) but these results seem to imply Mindlink is also a problem. It's a shame because I agree it's a very cool card with a lot of possibilities but I think it just magnifies the effect of slightly undercosted ships.

3 minutes ago, Jike said:

It's a shame because I agree it's a very cool card with a lot of possibilities but I think it just magnifies the effect of slightly undercosted ships.

...surely that's an issue with ships being undercosted, not Mindlink being overpowered? Fix the problem, not the symptoms. Otherwise you just end up with ships which are still undercosted that find other ways to exploit that advantage.

17 hours ago, markcsoul said:

Yeah attani needs a fix. But let's not forget x7 needs a fix as well. It's basically the imperial equivalent of attani.

After searching the results for /x7 and searching for Attanni or Manaroo I have to disagree on the strongest possible terms. Your claim isn't supported by the results at ALL

11 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

...surely that's an issue with ships being undercosted, not Mindlink being overpowered? Fix the problem, not the symptoms. Otherwise you just end up with ships which are still undercosted that find other ways to exploit that advantage.

Agreed, but FFG have shown no willingness to adjust the base point cost of anything in the game so far. Also, this approach includes an element of future-proofing against new ships being undercosted (it shouldn't happen, but it does).