http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2627
i collected these on the day and entered them to LJ tonight. because of some drops LJ gets confused so dont forget to sort by Score before taking a look.
it makes for interesting reading. total dominance by Scum (of various archetypes), Defenders, Kwing Bombers and Ghost-Biggs
Wow. I'm glad I got around to playing Parattani, instead of just brain-playing it, because if I hadn't I would have never believed these results.
Step 1. Take Parattanni
Step 2. Go 7-2 or better.
Step 3... ???
Step 4: Profit!
Maximum respect to that Brohwk player.
10 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:Wow. I'm glad I got around to playing Parattani, instead of just brain-playing it, because if I hadn't I would have never believed these results.
I did the opposite, in my own way: I played it for a couple months, and THEN ran the jousting numbers on it. It's probably the most jousting efficient list that X-wing has ever seen.
45 minutes ago, MajorJuggler said:
I did the opposite, in my own way: I played it for a couple months, and THEN ran the jousting numbers on it. It's probably the most jousting efficient list that X-wing has ever seen.
I'm not saying you're wrong. However I am asking how you're defining that? Because I do not think Parattanni can joust a crack swarm.
2 hours ago, MajorJuggler said:Step 1. Take Parattanni
Step 2. Go 7-2 or better.
Step 3... ???
Step 4: Profit!
The meta is as diverse as ever ?
2 hours ago, Moppy said:
I'm not saying you're wrong. However I am asking how you're defining that? Because I do not think Parattanni can joust a crack swarm.
This is something that should be investigated in the name of science!
I haven't thought of the math on that particular matchup until now, so you could be right. Running some quick off the cuff numbers, the two squads should be roughly around the same, probably with a slight edge to Parattanni. Bear in mind that Parattanni is worth around 105 - 110 points of raw dice before considering that it can adapt the action economy ideally, which directly translates into a jousting advantage. I haven't specifically quantified the latter (its complicated), so I have just been estimating Parattanni as being worth around 110 - 115 points of dice.
The TIE Crackswarm is only worth around 82 points of dice (by wave 5 standards) once Crackshots are expended, and assuming that Howlrunner is still around. A vanilla TIE is only worth around 14 when supported by Howlrunner, and Howlrunner herself is only 12. So 5*14 + 12 = 82. Normally 6 Crackshots will be enough to remove at least 18 points worth of opposing ship off the board in the initial alpha strike, so the Crackswarm quickly reduces the enemy squad to well below 80 points and then just grinds it out. Vs a 7 TIE Howlrunner TIE Swarm you basically take 2 ships off the board the first round of shooting, just with crackshot.
Vs Parattanni, the TIEs can't shoot first. But we can approximate how much it can eat out of Parattanni. The jousting values for the ships in Parattanni are dependent on who is getting the extra focus token, and if you're skewing offense vs defense. But in general just assume that Fenn gets the extra focus, and he target locks for his action. JV for each ship are around:
Fenn: 46
Asajj: 43
Manaroo: 19
An approximation for the effectiveness of Crackshot is to reduce the JV of the Parattanni ships based on how much health gets removed from each via Crackshot. A ship's value is roughly proportional to the square root of it's attack times its durability, so if you only half kill a ship it's not a linear reduction: you only reduce its value by about 25%, not 50%.
Scenario A: the TIEs put 2 Crackshot into Fenn, 1 into Manaroo, and 2 into Assajj. One TIE dies a horrible death before he gets to use his Crackshot. So, a coarse estimation of the JV of Parattanni is then:
46*(2/4)^0.5 + 43*(8/10)^0.5 + 19*(7/8)^0.5 = 89
Spreading out the Crackshots in this case is not enough.
Scenario B: the TIE Swarm uses Crackshot to single handedly kill Fenn.
46*(0/4)^0.5 + 43*(10/10)^0.5 + 19*(8/8)^0.5 = 62
This mathematical formula values Fenn at 0, which is not true -- he will get at least one shot off since he is higher PS, and possibly kill a TIE doing so. So in reality it will likely be 4 TIEs + Howlrunner vs Manaroo and Asajj under this scenario. This is probably the absolute best that the TIE Swarm can do, and it's still not automatic; even if Parattanni gets reduced to 62 JV, the Swarm is likely reduced to 68 JV. (4*14 + 12).
Scenario C: All 6 Crackshots get dumped into Asajj.
46*(4/4)^0.5 + 43*(4/10)^0.5 + 19*(8/8)^0.5 = 92.
Assajj eats a ton of damage, but then the swarm gets picked apart. Tactically, the way I see this going down is Asajj probably gets 2 shots off, maybe 3 if she is very lucky, while Fenn becomes a homicidal maniac tossing 5 dice with TL+F, and basically eats an entire TIE per turn.
None of this gets into bumping -- I assume the same standard baseline action economy for both sides. It also isn't considering that Parattanni's token stacking is generally worse against more ships, since the tokens eventually get burned down. Damage mitigation via token stacking is a non linear effect. And of course this is all entirely theoretical -- to really find out you would need to playtest it and get some hard data. But, in general, it looks like Parattanni can roughly hold its own in a joust vs the Crackswarm.
Edited by MajorJuggler4 hours ago, atr127 said:http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=2627
i collected these on the day and entered them to LJ tonight. because of some drops LJ gets confused so dont forget to sort by Score before taking a look.
it makes for interesting reading. total dominance by Scum (of various archetypes), Defenders, Kwing Bombers and Ghost - Biggs
you the man, thank you for the data entry :-)
Going though this, I was impressed by Kester Smith's performance against Parattani in the last few rounds — something like 2-0 vs. that list and a win vs. Kavil/Manaroo/Fenn with Vader and a Kenkirk Palpimator. Does anyone know how he flew it?
Prima facie , this has some similarities to Cal Jones' Heragator, if only in the sense that it leans on a boosting fat turret with two guaranteed evades at R3. Of course, if that was all it took, Fat Han would be cleaning house...and we've got the usual caveats about small sample sizes, etc.
On an unrelated note, does anyone know if Cal's Heragator ever did face a Parattani before the final?
Edited by Terminus-Est40 minutes ago, Terminus-Est said:Going though this, I was impressed by Kester Smith's performance against Parattani in the last few rounds — something like 2-0 vs. that list and a win vs. Kavil/Manaroo/Fenn with Vader and a Kenkirk Palpimator. Does anyone know how he flew it?
Prima facie , this has some similarities to Cal Jones' Heragator, if only in the sense that it leans on a boosting fat turret with two guaranteed evades at R3. Of course, if that was all it took, Fat Han would be cleaning house...and we've got the usual caveats about small sample sizes, etc.
On an unrelated note, does anyone know if Cal's Heragator ever did face a Parattani?
Check on the juggler....
Yes he did. Won giving only half ghost. And in finals. But then he just made really stupid, really crucial mistake that costed him the game (his list was designed to run and he flew ghost into r1 of whole parattani...) so this result is skewed IMO.
Sorry, not enough coffee - I meant pre-finals.
I agree with your take about that boost - easy to do when tired I guess. I ask about other matches mainly to find another bit of evidence about its performance besides the obvious one...
EDIT: ...and I see I also either missed something or it's been updated — looks like one win, one loss for Heragator vs. Parattani before the final rounds.
Edited by Terminus-EstI knew I should have taken five Cartel Marauders...
9 hours ago, MajorJuggler said:
I did the opposite, in my own way: I played it for a couple months, and THEN ran the jousting numbers on it. It's probably the most jousting efficient list that X-wing has ever seen.
6 hours ago, MajorJuggler said:Bear in mind that Parattanni is worth around 105 - 110 points of raw dice before considering that it can adapt the action economy ideally, which directly translates into a jousting advantage. I haven't specifically quantified the latter (its complicated), so I have just been estimating Parattanni as being worth around 110 - 115 points of dice.
So that translates into 110% jousting efficiency for Parattanni "roughly" compared to your estitames of 104% for the /x7 TIE Defender?
6 hours ago, Sciencius said:
So that translates into 110% jousting efficiency for Parattanni "roughly" compared to your estitames of 104% for the /x7 TIE Defender?
Basically yes, but I'm looking at the entire squad not just the individual ships. When I talk about Parattanni being worth 110 points of raw dice, I'm adding the JV for each ship. It sounds like I have also updated the metrics slightly since the earlier 104% number for the Defenders. So lets look at the pilots again to re-baseline. The TIE Defender pilots all have slightly different efficiencies.
Vessery here is assumed to get a free TL 50% of the time, and Juke triggers 75% of the time. It's still assuming a wave 5 meta though, so targets may generally be less likely to have a focus token on defense compared to today's focus-happy Mindlink squads, so in reality even when Juke triggers, it is probably less effective now, averaged over all possible matchups. In any event, Commonwealth Defenders total JV before considering Palpatine is around:
22.3 + 38.6 + 38.9 = 99.8 points
Add Palp into those JV, and you're definitely up over 100 points of raw JV. How much more depends how long Palp hangs around for, and how much the shuttle is actually in the fight. If Palp dies or the Shuttle can't get any shots, then the JV drops significantly from these numbers. On the flip side, if the shuttle survives for a while and gets shots, and Vessery gets closer to 100% free TLs, then you'll do even better than those numbers.
Straight up triple Defenders is a little more straightforward to calculate (Swarm Leader variety notwithstanding). Delta + Ryad + Vessery (Juke) is 26.8 + 38.6 + 38.9 = 104.3 points of raw dice, which is, by pure coincidence, right around that 104% number that you quoted. The problem is that Vessery is the obvious target in this list, and there's nothing you can do through action economy to change that. So not only is Parattanni worth a few more dice to begin with, it can adapt its action economy to alleviate any "glass cannon" problems on a turn-by-turn basis. The Defenders obviously get a white K, but Parattanni gets PS9 repositioning, a stress control mechanic, a mobile arc, a PWT on manaroo, and arguably better blocking with the jumpmaster. Parattanni is just flat out better than that Defender squad. Hence at high level tournament play you'll see something else like triple crackshot, or Swarm Leader instead -- although I haven't specifically run the numbers on those yet.
Edited by MajorJugglerWith results like this, I have to assume a Mindlink nerf is coming. It was a keystone of 34 of the reported lists (with a large majority of the lists still unreported), including at least six of the top 8. It really feels like something here has been broken and I'm not sure how to fix it.
What was Faan's list? It's not up there.
...however all three Defenders are likely to be actively seeking to engage the enemy, while Manaroo is more likely to be running away from combat and passing out tokens
Yeah attani needs a fix. But let's not forget x7 needs a fix as well. It's basically the imperial equivalent of attani.
No no no, Atanni ON CERTAIN SHIPS is strong. The card itself doesn't need a fix. It has been out way longer than Paratinni has been a thing and was barely used and didn't make it high in events.
I wish people would stop sky-falling predictions every time a new list comes along and makes existing cards work better than before.
41 minutes ago, InterceptorMad said:No no no, Atanni ON CERTAIN SHIPS is strong. The card itself doesn't need a fix. It has been out way longer than Paratinni has been a thing and was barely used and didn't make it high in events.
I wish people would stop sky-falling predictions every time a new list comes along and makes existing cards work better than before.
A card does not have to be a problem on all ships to be a problematic. Was ACD really a problem on anything but Whisper?
Attani certainly is a piece of the puzzle, even if not the whole puzzle. The problem with Attani is that, as I've said elsewhere, it gets extremely good on efficiently costed ship, especially if those ships have a nice suite of green maneuvers, which is why it is so effective in Paratanni. Prior to these ships, a lot of the ships it was being used on weren't all that efficient in the first place (Scum options for efficient ships was pretty limited) and it provided a nice balance for them to make them competitive. So, I understand your point there.
However, it's hard to argue that Attani by itself is balanced once you use it on more than two ships (again, I made this point elsewhere). Once you have three ships you are getting 2 extra focus tokens at the cost of three points. No other upgrade card can get you this for that cost. Some would say that Attani has the drawback of stress, but I think a case could be made that it's actually a wash since you can still end up with tokens while stressed, provided you have ships with at least halfway decent green maneuvers.
In addition, if you consider it from a development standpoint, I don't see how Attani Mindlink doesn't begin to really limit the development of scum faction ships. They have to consider Mindlink now whenever they design a ship. Make it too efficient (think X7 efficient) and Mindlink will make it almost unstoppable (and we're seeing quite a taste of that with Paratanni). Heck, they have to consider it with any ship that is decently balance but with very good green maneuvers.
Edited by AlexWEPT is one of the most coveted slots on ships, so I'd say that is also a slight drawback to it. And that you really have to design your whole list around using Mindlink. So it limits your choices. AND it limits your ship choice, as not all ships can make it work that well (you need ships with decent, green-filled dials).
So yes, it's powerful. And there are some very good lists with it. But I think changing/nerfing it now would just make it a card that never gets used. It seems prevalent at the mo, but it's because of 1 list, maaaaybe 1 more list. But that's it. If it was changed in some way to make Paratinni not so prevalent, would it still be used...ever?
And from what I hear, it seems to be mainly a UK meta thing. It might break out elsewhere now, but come the next FAQ and then the next release, it'll be used less and less just like EVERY major list that gets complained about. It's having it's day, it'll fade away soon.
5 minutes ago, InterceptorMad said:EPT is one of the most coveted slots on ships, so I'd say that is also a slight drawback to it. And that you really have to design your whole list around using Mindlink. So it limits your choices. AND it limits your ship choice, as not all ships can make it work that well (you need ships with decent, green-filled dials).
So yes, it's powerful. And there are some very good lists with it. But I think changing/nerfing it now would just make it a card that never gets used. It seems prevalent at the mo, but it's because of 1 list, maaaaybe 1 more list. But that's it. If it was changed in some way to make Paratinni not so prevalent, would it still be used...ever?
And from what I hear, it seems to be mainly a UK meta thing. It might break out elsewhere now, but come the next FAQ and then the next release, it'll be used less and less just like EVERY major list that gets complained about. It's having it's day, it'll fade away soon.
You're conflating a lot of things but the real argument is whether the list is too good. Agreed that it shouldn't nerfed yet - we have to wait and see how many more tournaments it dominates and if FFG think it's pushing too many other lists out of the meta.
Also, yes, it's only one list - but so was triple-scouts. Whisper was only one ship in one list. How is the number of lists its used in even relevant, anyway?
31 minutes ago, InterceptorMad said:EPT is one of the most coveted slots on ships, so I'd say that is also a slight drawback to it. And that you really have to design your whole list around using Mindlink. So it limits your choices. AND it limits your ship choice, as not all ships can make it work that well (you need ships with decent, green-filled dials).
So yes, it's powerful. And there are some very good lists with it. But I think changing/nerfing it now would just make it a card that never gets used. It seems prevalent at the mo, but it's because of 1 list, maaaaybe 1 more list. But that's it. If it was changed in some way to make Paratinni not so prevalent, would it still be used...ever?
And from what I hear, it seems to be mainly a UK meta thing. It might break out elsewhere now, but come the next FAQ and then the next release, it'll be used less and less just like EVERY major list that gets complained about. It's having it's day, it'll fade away soon.
It's absolutely not a UK-only thing. It's been winning multiple regionals in North America, including Vancouver (where it was three out of the top four) and Seattle. The first thing you have to ask when planning a list is "How will this handle Paratanni?"