1 minute ago, benskywalker said:

So by your numbers at least 38% of the ships in the game are relevant at the absolute highest levels of competition and you think this is bad diversity?

It is when the iconic ships are not in that 38%. I'm talking X-wings, tie fighters and the like. The ships that made me want to play this game. I'm a huge fan of the original trilogy, I want to fly those ships. I'm glad I got into this game when I did. If I walked into a store now and there was an x-wing tournament going on, I probably wouldn't even know it was star wars if I didn't already play. Never seen rebels, or clone wars or what ever. So yes, when the ships that dominate the game aren't the easily recognizable, iconic, classic ships that's bad.

So the ships that should dominate the game, should be the same now that in wave 1?

X wing, Falcon and tie fighter, maybe a bit of Y wing and tie advanced... B wing, Interceptor? They appear in the original trilogy, but just a few seconds each.

And only them? The previous 58% is too **** high?

Because if not, at least one x wing, Biggs, appears in many rebel lists, from the very beginning until today. The Falcon is still very used, even more the Lambda with Palpatine. The interceptors have dominated the years of palpaces. The 4 Y wings are one perfectly powerful list even against 3x7 defenders. Even the Tie swarms are still to be seen (and will be more and more with swarm leader).

Because a game with exacly the same meta (dominated entirely by Luke, Solo and Vader to be recognizable evento for the most casual player). Or a game without any expansión over the initial...

8 minutes ago, Draconis Hegemonia said:

Even the Tie swarms are still to be seen (and will be more and more with swarm leader).

Because a game with exacly the same meta (dominated entirely by Luke, Solo and Vader to be recognizable evento for the most casual player). Or a game without any expansión over the initial...

I seriously doubt swarm leader is going to reinvigorate the pure TIE swarm. We may see a few more TIES hit the table as evade feeders but it's far and away better to put swarm leader itself on something with massive action economy like Vessery/Ryad or something with 4 reds like the UPS or Pure Sabbac. Even then x7 delta defenders are honestly the best swarm leader escorts imaginable since they get the evade every turn for free and due to the 4k will almost always have the target in arc.

The solution to that is already underway naturally. Look at Han, he's got a new pilot card even if the 2nd one kind of sucks but it's at least interesting and thematic. And I'll be downright shocked if we don't see a Last Jedi version of Luke Skywalker. As more and more of the new trilogy come out along with the Han and Boba Fett stand alones we'll naturally see the ships and pilots being released sourced from them rather than the more obscure books, video games, and cartoons of the last few waves. Plus as we saw with Poe they're not totally opposed to releasing minor variants on existing pilots, no reason they can't make a decent version of a few underplayed favorites in aces packs.

25 minutes ago, Draconis Hegemonia said:

So the ships that should dominate the game, should be the same now that in wave 1?

Yep.

Or at least they should show up a heck of a lot more than they do currently.

Which is not to say that the game should play as it did in Wave 1. Do not confuse wanting to see Wave 1 ships with wanting to play a Wave 1 game.

2 hours ago, RayCidivist said:

I think what the OP was really after was a new core set with Sabine for each faction, but wasn't sure how to word it. Maybe put her in a T65, a Starviper, and a TIE Punisher. There: X-Wing fixed, no 2.0 required. You're welcome, Internet!

If you put Sabine in a punisher and give her an EPT it would be"fixed."

1 hour ago, Clancampbell said:

It is when the iconic ships are not in that 38%. I'm talking X-wings, tie fighters and the like. The ships that made me want to play this game. I'm a huge fan of the original trilogy, I want to fly those ships. I'm glad I got into this game when I did. If I walked into a store now and there was an x-wing tournament going on, I probably wouldn't even know it was star wars if I didn't already play. Never seen rebels, or clone wars or what ever. So yes, when the ships that dominate the game aren't the easily recognizable, iconic, classic ships that's bad.

I definitely understand that sentiment.

As a casual player with a full selection of ships I ever expect to see them release, and no interest in tournaments at this point, if they go 2.0, I'll be done. I'm not buying new versions of everything I already have, nor even buying a bunch of new cardboard and paper. I find the game as is works just fine and fully satisfies my gaming buddies and I. From this standpoint, as soon as FFG releases a second edition, I'm done with new material and will simply play with what I have.

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FFG has produces 2nd (and some times 3rd and 4th) editions of several of their games - and the result is always better.. Off course they would have to make a "transition" box making it possible to use your 1st ed ships´ in order to not alienate their userbase and existing customer

That transition box is why they won't. They're not going to do a new edition, playtest ten waves of altered ships all in one go and then release it all in an affordable package from the get go. That's madness from a business perspective.

It seems much more likely to me that they'll make 1.0 for as long as it continues to sell and then do something else. Because of the price of the models making a profitable 2.0 presents a significant marketing challenge. To make 2.0 work you've got to find a way to resell your customers ships they already have.

The only way I can see it working is abandoning the current distribution model and instead releasing the cards and the ship models separately.

4 minutes ago, Blue Five said:

That transition box is why they won't. They're not going to do a new edition, playtest ten waves of altered ships all in one go and then release it all in an affordable package from the get go. That's madness from a business perspective.

That's exactly what they did with Descent...

Not saying they won't rerelease new versions of things and include must have upgrades to tempt people into buying them. But madness is alienating your entire playerbase in a single stroke by not allowing for upgrades

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That's exactly what they did with Descent...

Did they? Would their method there carry over in a profitable manner?

If FFG has a way of doing workable transition kits I could see them doing that wave by wave when ships repeat.

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Not saying they won't rerelease new versions of things and include must have upgrades to tempt people into buying them. But madness is alienating your entire playerbase in a single stroke by not allowing for upgrades

Which is why I doubt they'll do a 2.0 at all if they can't find a profitable way to do it without doing that.

21 minutes ago, MarekMandalore said:

As a casual player with a full selection of ships I ever expect to see them release, and no interest in tournaments at this point, if they go 2.0, I'll be done. I'm not buying new versions of everything I already have, nor even buying a bunch of new cardboard and paper. I find the game as is works just fine and fully satisfies my gaming buddies and I. From this standpoint, as soon as FFG releases a second edition, I'm done with new material and will simply play with what I have.

I know what you mean. I had been perfectly find with my horse, hell, we got along like best buds, and then they released "car." I said, No Way, my horse works great and have been riding everywhere ever since.

Why the heck would you even use a word like "diversity" to apply to a game's mechanical and structural balances? lol

I can already tell this conversation isn't going to offer any net value to this thread.

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Why the heck would you even use a word like "diversity" to apply to a game's mechanical and structural balances? lol

He's using the word to refer to the metagame. A diverse metagame is one where a large proportion of the available ships appear and there's a lot of variety in list composition. In other words, the range of lists is diverse.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

I know what you mean. I had been perfectly find with my horse, hell, we got along like best buds, and then they released "car." I said, No Way, my horse works great and have been riding everywhere ever since.

Hopefully, this was meant as a joke; if it wasn't, the comparison is at best misguided. The transition from one mode of transportation to another is a matter of practicality. This is a game, existing purely for entertainment, and is in no way necessary for successful living in a developing society. One can quite effectively utilize theoretically outdated systems of entertainment without any negative impact on one's life. As it is, I already play numerous games which are not particularly new, and many are long out of print.

If a second edition of any game comes out, there are many reasons to buy into it, but in the case of X-wing, none of them apply to me.

1. If you consider something about the previous edition to limit the fun or playability of the game, and if you think the new edition fixes it, buy it. I have no objections to X-wing as it is, so this does not apply.

2. If you play in tournaments, you must naturally continue to play with whatever the current rules are, just as you must use current FAQ and errata. I don't play in tournaments (tried once, but thematic games interest me more), so this is irrelevant.

3. If you are new to the game, and second edition is more widely available, unless something about first edition seems better, it is only logical to go with second. Having started with first edition, and not wanting to devote my entire disposable income to one hobby, it is equally logical for me to simply keep with the materials available for the edition I already have and enjoy.

4. If you are a plastic crack addict, and you feel you must spend more on expansions to the line, whether or not you even want to play with them, of course anything released for a second edition is required. I don't feel compelled to spend money on things that don't interest me, so this is not applicable. (Its the lack of addiction that results in my minimal scum selections, and a lack of many upgrade cards that would require I buy ships I'll never play with just for one or two pieces of paper; in casual games, you can always proxy if all players are agreeable.)

1-3 above make perfect sense to me, and for the sake of anyone falling into category one, I hope that FFG does something to improve the game for you, be it v2.0 or some incremental fixes. Either way, they've released every ship I wanted them to for v1.0, as well as offering a few things that I wouldn't have asked for, but turned out pretty cool when they appeared (Protectorate starfighter, for example, as well as going all the way back to wave 3 and the Moldy Crow). There's more v1.0 stuff I plan to pick up but haven't gotten around to yet, as well.

On the other hand, and back to the point, there is nothing wrong with choosing to stick with an older edition of a form of entertainment if you enjoy it. I still prefer old Star Trek to J.J.'s version. I prefer Star Wars Ep. IV over its cheap clone, VII. Newer isn't always better, especially with regard to something that is just a matter of personal taste. Like a game with little plastic spaceships.

11 minutes ago, MarekMandalore said:

Hopefully, this was meant as a joke;

A horse!! (Or maybe one of those new-fangled cars with a flat. . .)

But seriously, almost every player of this game would be out if 2.0 voided their entire collection.

I do clamor for X-Wing 2.0, but when I say that, I mostly mean seeing all errata printed to the cards and a comprehensive rules rewrite that brings the FAQ back down to a 0 page document (so that the process can start all over again). Hopefully, it would also rectify the creative/power gap between the early waves and the later ones, because I am pretty certain if the designers designed the X-Wing and TIE fighters now, they would be different ships, spec-wise.

The last time there was a concept as contentious as 2.0 in X-Wing it was the Scum faction, and we all know how that turned out.

I still fantasize about having been adequately vindictive to have gone through every "Third faction??" thread prior to release, gathering up the stubborn, absolutist "No", "Never", "Impossible", "If it happens I'm out" posts to condense for public shaming. It would have been so scummy.

The way I see it, there are only two possible outcomes. The first is X-Wing dies, and it sucks. The second is that there's a new "edition" (in one of many forms that could take). I like X-Wing so I root for the second outcome.

There are ways to minimize the pain of updating. It's doubtful that every pilot and upgrade would require changing, so some stuff would stay current. They could do card packs. They could also finally provide their own online squad builder, and allow a list from that + old upgrade cards to suffice for sanctioned play.

7 minutes ago, Gibarian said:

The last time there was a concept as contentious as 2.0 in X-Wing it was the Scum faction, and we all know how that turned out.

I still fantasize about having been adequately vindictive to have gone through every "Third faction??" thread prior to release, gathering up the stubborn, absolutist "No", "Never", "Impossible", "If it happens I'm out" posts to condense for public shaming. It would have been so scummy.

Beyond 2.0, I would also include the non-faction ship and the Mining Guild TIE, and Prequel ships.

I'm betting we see all 4 eventually.

The thing with a 2.0, is that they have been all too willing to invalidate AGOT player's collections, so why do you think they wouldn't invalidate ours.

Also, creating a conversion isn't exactly the best way to go. How long do you think it would take for them to develop and test 10 whole waves, to be released at once? Which at the same time means, no new stuff is being released. Which, let me tell you, companies are not fans of putting their largest revenue streams on hold.

And really, all you are doing is replacing the current issues with different issues. Because, I am pretty **** sure releasing 10 new waves of stuff at once is not going to be even less tested than what we are currently getting. AGOT was able to get away with their second edition because they are not completely redoing their old card base. What everyone advocates here, is quite frankly, a flight of fancy. It is not practical, nor good for the game, to completely redo all the existing ships in a way that you can just release a simple conversion pack.

And let me tell you, FFG will get you to rebuy the ships anyway. See Descent and the Heroes and Monster Packs.

I don't know why people are wanting to revert back to 2nd edition, were already on 4th edition... ( see FAQ for reference if you don't get it) ?

This probably a foolish idea but I'm going to share it anyway.

What if the core ships (X-Wing, A-Wing, Y-Wing, TIE Fighter, TIE Interceptor, TIE Advanced) were balanced to each other with just a couple of auto-include upgrades. IA and R2 for example. Then everything else was just slightly underpowered or, better still, situational compared to them. It would keep the ships from the movies always winning tournaments but give a variety for casual play. If more of the ships were situational, like freighters flying like freighters, and bombers played like bombers, then you could seriously expand the missions.

Of course your going to say this will kill the tournament play. Maybe not. But like I said it is just an idea.

3 minutes ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

This probably a foolish idea but I'm going to share it anyway.

What if the core ships (X-Wing, A-Wing, Y-Wing, TIE Fighter, TIE Interceptor, TIE Advanced) were balanced to each other with just a couple of auto-include upgrades. IA and R2 for example. Then everything else was just slightly underpowered or, better still, situational compared to them. It would keep the ships from the movies always winning tournaments but give a variety for casual play. If more of the ships were situational, like freighters flying like freighters, and bombers played like bombers, then you could seriously expand the missions.

Of course your going to say this will kill the tournament play. Maybe not. But like I said it is just an idea.

It is a terrible idea from a gameplay and game design standpoint.

I didn't say it was a great idea, but to respond I would say:

10 minutes ago, Sithborg said:

It is a terrible idea from a gameplay and game design standpoint.

Or a great one for missions and campaigns, which is gameplay. Plenty of games have transports that are not fully combat ready, so I doubt this is the only one that would suffer. As for design it really wouldn't hurt a game to have types of ships fly and behave as their class might; I would disagree with your design standpoint as well.

Edit: I did say it might hurt tournament play, but the rest of the game might just improve.

At what point does FFG and Disney say, "Our target market is post episode VII sales." meaning they want rey, finn, rebels, rogue one and all other pure Disney Star Wars markets to sell. Just my 2 cents that perhaps they care a bit less about the OT and care more about all of the new stuff.

1 minute ago, Luke C said:

At what point does FFG and Disney say, "Our target market is post episode VII sales." meaning they want rey, finn, rebels, rogue one and all other pure Disney Star Wars markets to sell. Just my 2 cents that perhaps they care a bit less about the OT and care more about all of the new stuff.

That is a good point and may happen. But to go too far turns off a generation with the funds to over indulge financially in this game. But still possible.

1 minute ago, Luke C said:

At what point does FFG and Disney say, "Our target market is post episode VII sales."

My guess is sometime last year at a meeting in a secret lair constructed into a volcano shaped like a Mickey's head. Would expect a bare minimum of 50% of stuff moving forward to be sourced from the yearly movies.

1 minute ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

That is a good point and may happen. But to go too far turns off a generation with the funds to over indulge financially in this game. But still possible.

Why? I'm solidly a part of that generation and while I despise the prequels and doesn't really care all that much about the cartoons I loved the latest 2 movies, especially Rogue One (give me my K2-S0 card, best character in that movie). They felt like the Star Wars I remember and scratch that same itch