21 minutes ago, haslo said:

Because otherwise, there's no reason to call it 2.0.

Interestingly, I have used the same miniatures through four revisions of D&D.

8 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Interestingly, I have used the same miniatures through four revisions of D&D.

D&D isn't a miniature game and the miniatures have nothing to do with the "gameplay" of D&D.

Yes Xwing 2.0! I am all for it.

Just now, Jeff Wilder said:

Interestingly, I have used the same miniatures through four revisions of D&D.

This is an entirely different beast though. Many pen-and-paper RPGs make do without any minis whatsoever.

And this is FFG we're speaking about. You can use minis from Mansions of Madness 1st Edition in 2nd, but it doesn't really enhance your experience. There's an upgrade pack for Descent 1st Edition minis in 2nd Edition, but that's a take-it-or-leave-it affair, too. Drakon 2nd and 3rd Edition completely replace their predecessors. Doom 2nd Edition is a completely different game from the 1st. Eldritch Horror is arguably Arkham Horror 2nd Edition and only shares the names of investigators and thematic similarities. Things they reprinted that were previously printed by other publishers (Talisman, Dungeonquest, Blue Moon) don't have a hint of backwards compatibility.

I'm sure I don't have to go on

1 minute ago, Derpzilla88 said:

D&D isn't a miniature game and the miniatures have nothing to do with the "gameplay" of D&D.

The miniatures have nothing to do with the gameplay of X-Wing, either. The game can easily be played without them.

My point is that there is no reason to think that X-Wing 2.0 would scrap all of the miniatures -- that would be suicide for the game -- and plenty of reasons to believe that it wouldn't.

When 2.0 happens -- and it will -- there will need for reinvestment ... but to buy updated rules and cardboard, not 100+ new miniatures (speaking personally).

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Why do people thing that X-Wing 2.0 means all the current stuff goes into a wood chipper??

Eventually the game will need a cohesive revision. Otherwise, the game will collapse under the weight of all the sequential releases. The designers would be stupid to NOT reexamine the game as a whole at some point and make a sum-total tune up.

Because second editions mean starting from the beginning.

Pilot cards, upgrade cards, base cardboard... it all goes away. None of it is viable in a second edition.

The only thing that could transfer over would be ship models, which doesn't do a whole lot of good when they'll have to start back at X-Wings, Y-Wings, TIE Fighters, and TIE Advances again..

Just now, Jeff Wilder said:

The miniatures have nothing to do with the gameplay of X-Wing, either. The game can easily be played without them.

My point is that there is no reason to think that X-Wing 2.0 would scrap all of the miniatures -- that would be suicide for the game -- and plenty of reasons to believe that it wouldn't.

When 2.0 happens -- and it will -- there will need for reinvestment ... but to buy updated rules and cardboard, not 100+ new miniatures (speaking personally).

I'm not going to say there won't be a second edition. But I pray there won't be.

If they were to release a "cardboard & card pack" with updated rules, that works only for those who have the ships from "first edition".

What about new players? Are they expected to buy the models from the first edition that include cards and cardboard that doesn't apply to the second edition? Then pay more for the updated pilot cards, upgrades, and cardboard for second edition? Of course not, that's unfair. FFG would, most likely, release new models with the second edition cards. But if they're going to release new models with the second edition cards, why bother making a card & cardboard packs for the first edition players to update? It'd make more money to have people rebuy models to stay with the new edition.

Second edition would also start from the beginning, so we'd be back at Wave 1. If they did release card & cardboard packs along with second edition models with those same cards, it would only be for whatever is in Wave 1. Releasing second edition updates for all the ships they currently have out wouldn't solve the problem people have with the "bloat" of the game when the first wave of second edition includes ships, pilots, and upgrades for everything that's currently released.

[/rant]

I'm just trying to say that a second edition of X-Wing would not be as simple to introduce as some people think it would. Second edition means complete restart from the ground up. Not a patch for what already exists.

48 minutes ago, haslo said:

Because otherwise, there's no reason to call it 2.0.

Fine. Pick an acceptable term and get back to me:

http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/revised

Because, all semantics aside, you know what we are talking about.

15 hours ago, Cgriffith said:

So we've had 5 World Championships between 10 Waves and we've had exactly 5 different lists win; the Meta will change, lists continue to evolve and fixes will be made by the developers as of now the game is fine.

Of course the lists change as the new cards and ships change. This is meaningless and provides no valuable insight into the state of the game.

What is more telling is what the distribution is of similar lists at each tournament. Lists changing is normal for any game like this. However, if 95% of the lists at any given tournament fall into a handful of basic structures (Palpmobile, Manaroo, Quad TLTs, etc depending on what year it is) then you're demonstrating a pattern that the game tends to release new game-breaking combinations, rather than creating a system where thoughtful list construction is the norm.

There were 13 different ships in the Top 16 of last year's Worlds. The largest variety was Imperial, which fielded 5 different ones. Scum fielded 4. Rebels fielded 4. The only reason diversity was that large on Rebels is that only 2 Rebel players even made the Top 16 and their lists were different, lol. There are 34 total ships in X-Wing. Meaning that 21 of them were completely meaningless to the bracketed single-elimination phase of the game. That's not really a good thing. Outside of trick ponies, there are quite a few ships in X-Wing that never get used because they are either overcosted, or completely outclassed by similar releases.

A 2.0 X-Wing doesn't need to completely obliterate the existing collections. But there definitely needs to be a complete re-examination of the earlier wave ships, at the very least. The game has added 3 different kinds of upgrades, and two entirely new maneuvers to the game, unnecessarily hamstringing earlier ships that don't get them, likely for no better reason than "This didn't exist when that ship was released".

16 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

When 2.0 happens -- and it will -- there will need for reinvestment ... but to buy updated rules and cardboard, not 100+ new miniatures (speaking personally).

NO NO NO!!! I will only shovel my money for forever into this game if it is called First Edition!!

The power creep has just been exponential the last couple of waves. I've heard speculation that FFG might be afraid of losing the Star Wars IP, so they're just churning out ships....

I've also heard that doing a 2.0 might be difficult because Lucasfilm may not approve the release of Legends ships anymore. If that were the case, a good number of those minis—K-Wing, TIE Phantom, HWK, and so on—would be useless.

That said, I'd still rather have an X-Wing 2.0 right now, because most of my minis have been power creeped into uselessness anyway.

No.

17 hours ago, Shadow345 said:

Just clean the game up.

for Armada?

I feel that X-wing 1st edition will continue on and on until enough people get tired of the bloat & power creep that come with constant expansions & game mechanics, that it is no longer profitable OR Disney says "That's enough. We're pulling the license."

What I'd expect to see before that happens would be another X-wing like game set in a different era, possibly Old Republic or more likely Prequel, that implements a lot of what some are calling for and gets back to the spirit of what X-Wing started out as: a space Dog-Fighting game. That's your 2.0. The two could exist side-by-side, each in their own lane and 1st edition people can stay there if they want to. Or you could be 2.0 all the way.

Whatever. As long as the money keeps on money and you money the money for money, they'll be money. [ Too cynical?]

Maybe one day we'll get that SW ground war game too.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Why do people thing that X-Wing 2.0 means all the current stuff goes into a wood chipper??

Eventually the game will need a cohesive revision. Otherwise, the game will collapse under the weight of all the sequential releases. The designers would be stupid to NOT reexamine the game as a whole at some point and make a sum-total tune up.

I didn't say everything goes in the wood chipper, but a wholesale reboot would likely need new cards, possibly new punch and dials. I suspect the costs would be at least $2-3 per ship and I have 2-8 of every ship and there are something like 35 or more ships so just rough numbers I suspect my costs would run $300+ to upgrade.

Maybe after the sequel trilogy is finished there will be a major revision of the game but right now people are mostly complaining of a few sticking points, including the weakness of 2 dice primaries in the face of damage mitigation/regen, lack of repositioning on all ships, obsolescence of genetics and mid PS pilots, ect. These are complaints that would require more than just a second edition, they would require a totally new game to fix, really going back to square one and rebuilding from nothing. I don't think anyone wants that, so we are stuck with incremental fixes to keep things from falling completely apart.

not that it's that bleak, the game is still great fun and the minis are still awesome.

10 minutes ago, Jetfire said:

I didn't say everything goes in the wood chipper, but a wholesale reboot would likely need new cards, possibly new punch and dials. I suspect the costs would be at least $2-3 per ship and I have 2-8 of every ship and there are something like 35 or more ships so just rough numbers I suspect my costs would run $300+ to upgrade.

43 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

NO NO NO!!! I will only shovel my money for forever into this game if it is called First Edition!!

So then what's the big deal? You'll probably spend money on this game anyway even if they don't do a revision/2.0/2nd Ed. Wouldn't it be nice to spend those dollars on a better version of the game?

When Warmahordes changed editions last, they invalidated all the old cards that came with the models. Their fix was to release faction packs containing all the new cards for ten bucks.

2 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

Whatever. As long as the money keeps on money and you money the money for money, they'll be money. [ Too cynical?]

Only if you think a for-profit company is doing something wrong by continuing to make money on a product they create so they can pay employees, provide health care for said employees, pay the electric bill, etc. etc.

I think what the OP was really after was a new core set with Sabine for each faction, but wasn't sure how to word it. Maybe put her in a T65, a Starviper, and a TIE Punisher. There: X-Wing fixed, no 2.0 required. You're welcome, Internet!

8 hours ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

Got you to respond though

Yes sir he did and was wondering when someone will call me on it Props fine sir.:)

19 hours ago, chervorlovesu said:

Skip second, we need X-Wing 360 right?

Just so we're clear, x-wing 360 is where every ship gets a turret right?

14 minutes ago, RayCidivist said:

I think what the OP was really after was a new core set with Sabine for each faction, but wasn't sure how to word it. Maybe put her in a T65, a Starviper, and a TIE Punisher. There: X-Wing fixed, no 2.0 required. You're welcome, Internet!

But that would require 3 new Xtreme painted models for Sabine's T-65, Sabine's Starviper, Sabine's TIE Punisher. Plus all new box art for the Sabine's Core Set for Sabine's X Wing: A Sabine's Star Wars Miniatures Game.

Sigh... she's basically space Tyler Perry

3 hours ago, Derpzilla88 said:

I'm not going to say there won't be a second edition. But I pray there won't be.

If they were to release a "cardboard & card pack" with updated rules, that works only for those who have the ships from "first edition".

What about new players? Are they expected to buy the models from the first edition that include cards and cardboard that doesn't apply to the second edition? Then pay more for the updated pilot cards, upgrades, and cardboard for second edition? Of course not, that's unfair. FFG would, most likely, release new models with the second edition cards. But if they're going to release new models with the second edition cards, why bother making a card & cardboard packs for the first edition players to update? It'd make more money to have people rebuy models to stay with the new edition.

Second edition would also start from the beginning, so we'd be back at Wave 1. If they did release card & cardboard packs along with second edition models with those same cards, it would only be for whatever is in Wave 1. Releasing second edition updates for all the ships they currently have out wouldn't solve the problem people have with the "bloat" of the game when the first wave of second edition includes ships, pilots, and upgrades for everything that's currently released.

[/rant]

I'm just trying to say that a second edition of X-Wing would not be as simple to introduce as some people think it would. Second edition means complete restart from the ground up. Not a patch for what already exists.

A second edition could undoubtedly mean either. Saying, "a second edition MIGHT not be as simple to introduce as some people think it would." Would be an accurate statement. Saying it won't be is merely your opinion because you don't design the game. Might FFG eventually do a 2nd edition of x-wing that renders all first edition product void? Yes, they might. It is probably far more likely that is not the case though, and they would work on a way to get it done without people having to purchase all new miniatures. Looking at how they have done new editions previously would support this argument.

4 hours ago, VaeVictis said:

Of course the lists change as the new cards and ships change. This is meaningless and provides no valuable insight into the state of the game.

What is more telling is what the distribution is of similar lists at each tournament. Lists changing is normal for any game like this. However, if 95% of the lists at any given tournament fall into a handful of basic structures (Palpmobile, Manaroo, Quad TLTs, etc depending on what year it is) then you're demonstrating a pattern that the game tends to release new game-breaking combinations, rather than creating a system where thoughtful list construction is the norm.

There were 13 different ships in the Top 16 of last year's Worlds. The largest variety was Imperial, which fielded 5 different ones. Scum fielded 4. Rebels fielded 4. The only reason diversity was that large on Rebels is that only 2 Rebel players even made the Top 16 and their lists were different, lol. There are 34 total ships in X-Wing. Meaning that 21 of them were completely meaningless to the bracketed single-elimination phase of the game. That's not really a good thing. Outside of trick ponies, there are quite a few ships in X-Wing that never get used because they are either overcosted, or completely outclassed by similar releases.

A 2.0 X-Wing doesn't need to completely obliterate the existing collections. But there definitely needs to be a complete re-examination of the earlier wave ships, at the very least. The game has added 3 different kinds of upgrades, and two entirely new maneuvers to the game, unnecessarily hamstringing earlier ships that don't get them, likely for no better reason than "This didn't exist when that ship was released".

So by your numbers at least 38% of the ships in the game are relevant at the absolute highest levels of competition and you think this is bad diversity?