I basically used my Arrer Boyz to gun down my opponent's entire battlefield (save for units with toughness) a couple of turns last game, because I had a Big 'Uns out, allowing me to continually use the Arrer Boyz without killing them.

But I felt like I was doing something wrong, like it wasn't legal for some reason. Arrer Boyz says that if thier ability is used they TAKE one damage. It all comes down to what TAKE means in the game. If a unit TAKES damage, does that mean it gets assigned, then applied, allowing Big 'Uns to prevent the once-wounded Arrer Boyz to survive their ability infinitely, or does TAKE damage mean the damage is instantly applied, by-passing toughness. Does damage only get assigned, then applied if it's combat damage, or does damage from tactics and other cards get assigned first, then applied as well?

bitva said:

Sounds legit. I agree that having "take 1 damage" added to the fold confuses things. If the wording had been "then deal 1 damage to the Arrer Boyz", clear sailing, Toughness would kick in. Maybe "take" means toughness doesn't kick in? All damage apart from counterstrike is assigned, then applied (CS applied immediately upon assign). Probably need to check for an official word on "take".

I think it should work this way, still word "take" is a bit confusing. Remember that you always need to pay 2 res for each "arrow", so it's not broken.

Well, you have to remember that the Arrer Boyz don't have that damage protection if they haven't been damaged beforehand. Big 'Uns ONLY give toughness 1 to DAMAGED enemies. Meaning that they have to have at least 1 damage point on them before they get the bonus. So if you were playing them with toughness 1 and they were in perfect health, yeah you were doing it wrong. However, after let's say that they used their ability once their life would be at 2 out of 3 and then would qualify to get toughness 1 from then onwards.

Another thing going against the combo is that it's ineffective against other units with toughness (any number). However, I still feel 'dirty' using this combo. Being able to dish out 4-5 direct damage on the battlefield on an average turn is harsh. I would also like to say, that the game I used this combo in, I lost (to Dwarves).

10r/rd is a bit much for an Orc deck. And 10 resources for 5 damage is quite ineffective. Get some units or waagh for it and you can blow up the remaining zone.

True, but add in a Sadistic Mutation...

Brad Harrington said:

Except that SM is waiting clarification on whether it works outside combat damage. Dormouse felt that SM doesn't work like Shrine to Nurgle ("during combat") and only works when the Unit with SM deals combat damage (is either attacker or defender).

Dam said:

True, some clarification on the difference between "deals damage in combat", "combat damage" and "is damaged during combat" is sorely needed.

We need the FAQ now!!! Or maybe it's in a quest? Or we need to get more resources before putting it in play?

Which of you is volunteering to sit on the quest for three rounds to summon the FAQ?

Brad Harrington said:

Sadistic Mutation clearly says on the card damage in combat.

And maybe there isn't a difference between deals damage in combat, combat damage and damaged during combat. Call me crazy but those all mean the same thing and I am pretty sure in any defintion of the English language it would.

Toqtamish said:

Well, Shrine to Nurgle ("during combat") has already been ruled to work whenever you deal damage during combat (the 5 steps of the Battlefield Phase). Hence the Pestilence + Shrine combo works during any of those 5 steps. Combat damage is dealt by Units in combat, either as attacker or defender. Which leaves "in combat" in the middle for now, though it seems to go with combat damage.

When the FAQ is released, I hope, for the sake of clarity, that all those terms (damage in combat, combat damage and damaged during combat) mean "damage inflicted by attacking or defending units during the 5th battle step. Damage inflicted during the action window of this step doesn't count as this kind of damage"

No. Not unless Nate has decided to take it in a different direction. We already have multiple statements from him that damage during combat is during the five steps and is not the same as combat damage. I highly suspect he will errata Shrine to Nurgle before he changes the rule.

We know what combat damage is as well both by the rulebook and further clarification from Nate. The only thing we don't know is damage in combat.

Comparing Arrer Boyz to Nurgle Sorcerer, this combo being legal wouldn't be too shocking. Nurgle Sorcerer is pay 3 resources to do 1 damage to any unit (2 if the target is corrupted). With Toughness, Arrer Boyz is pay 2 resources and deal 1 damage to any unit in any Battlefield. So it costs 2 resources instead of 3 but you are restricted to targetting unis in the Battlefield and of course you have to set the combo up first.

Seems the FAQ didn't address this combo.

Maybe not directly, but it did clarify on what Non Combat Damage is: "Non Combat Damage is the term for all damage generated besides combat damage." (FAQ p.7). Arrer Boys ability can be triggered in any action window as long as they are in the Battlefield right? So I'd assume that the damage they receive, based on the definition of Non Combat Damage, is "applied as soon as it is assigned", thereby by-passing Toughness.

What do you guys think?

that means Toughness works only in combat? I was thinking that it cancels assigned damage, and do not need a action window between a assign and apply...

"applied as soon as it is assigned"

How does that bypass thougness? It will still be applied and thus thougness will trigger.

This combo still works. The only situation I can find where toughness would not work is if you are "moving" damage such as the effect of Stubborn Refusal.

mathulus said:

Gerson said:

emphasis added

How is that unclear ? Page 13 talks about how Toughness kicks in during the Apply Damage step.

Dam said:

Actually, what was unclear was my post!

When I read that non combat damage "is always applied as soon as it is assigned, before any other actions can be taken", it seemed to me that nothing could prevent the damage to be applied. Even Toughness.

Gerson said:

its refereing "turn player priority" and the like. its trying to say that when you assign the damage it is also applied. Normally you have a "action" window that you can take. But thats Actions that YOU the player takes. in which case if a forced. ability is being forced then you arnt taking the action. You only take actions by choice. so a "you may" ability would be skipped.