Rebels don't reposition well but they do synergize well. So stop trying to make them do what you want them to do and let them do what they do well. One of my personal favorite lists uses a U Wing and Braylen Stramm and you just park in a corner and zero stop with the U Wing and position the stress machine behind. Stramm does greens and clears his stress bumping to stay behind. Arcs spread out to cover almost all approach angles.

Another of my favorite current Rebel builds uses Kanan, Determination Biggs with Rex and Jan Ors crew. It's really hard to hit Biggs when he's sitting behind a tac jammer with an Evade and Focus x2 (Jyn Erso) and I can remove two of your red dice.

I think Rebel list crafting is tougher than the other factions (it likely has been for a while) but some outside the box thinking and playing can yield great results. As evidenced by the whacky Range 3 Ghost/Ashoka list. Step outside the box and outside your comfort zone if you want to play Rebels.

2 hours ago, charlesanakin said:

Rebels don't reposition well but they do synergize well. So stop trying to make them do what you want them to do and let them do what they do well. One of my personal favorite lists uses a U Wing and Braylen Stramm and you just park in a corner and zero stop with the U Wing and position the stress machine behind. Stramm does greens and clears his stress bumping to stay behind. Arcs spread out to cover almost all approach angles.

Another of my favorite current Rebel builds uses Kanan, Determination Biggs with Rex and Jan Ors crew. It's really hard to hit Biggs when he's sitting behind a tac jammer with an Evade and Focus x2 (Jyn Erso) and I can remove two of your red dice.

I think Rebel list crafting is tougher than the other factions (it likely has been for a while) but some outside the box thinking and playing can yield great results. As evidenced by the whacky Range 3 Ghost/Ashoka list. Step outside the box and outside your comfort zone if you want to play Rebels.

Ok? And maybe some of us like to actually play the game...

If you're telling me one of the better Rebel lists is played by not doing anything, maybe i think i'm done playing Rebels.

It's like playing Sonic in Smash Bros. for Wii U. Just do 1 or more percent of damage then hang out on the platform and cancel spin dash with shield over and over again because it's an instantaneous cancel.

I quit that game because of Sonic.

There's a line between "giving a game your all" and "winning at all costs." I mean, really, how can you hate playing the game that much and still play it?

15 hours ago, gennataos said:

This is completely open-ended. I surely don't have the answer. Is it as simple as the great, cheap action economy of things like Defenders and Parattani?

With the increase in attack dice, Rebels can no longer rely on the age old crutch of Regen - and they haven't received anything in recent waves to compensate/balance it out.

Yeah, as much as i try regen builds, they get shut down very quick. Not really a lot time to regen, before u get demolished. As by a lot pointed out. Red dice, get to creep in with a lot modifiers or more dice.

I think, rebels can still be played ok, just need to find good new builds, that don't only need regen. We need to find combos for dice modifications maybe.

I pretty much exclusively play rebels. I've dabbled in the dark forces of the empire and the scourge that is scum... but I prefer the alliance. It's a hard one to find something ultra competitive in the new world. My meta is very...mixed with nothing really croping up from the world meta too much. Paratanni is the best showing I've seen of a "meta list" since Phantom/Decimator. Palp aces was never really a thing either.

That being said... lately Rey and Corran have been my goto cornerstones. It's a matter of finding something that blends properly though... and I think the Sabine Ties are the key in unlocking some cool combos. Just need to play around a little more. There is a lot of really wicked stuff in the Rebels, the problem is the lists do rely on synergy and if your keystone falls the list falls.

I really don't think rebels are struggling anymore than anything else that isn't a Mindlink list.

This competitive season has seen Triple KWings, Corran+Miranda, Miranda+stuff, Kanaan Biggs, Triple T-70s!!, Rebel Swarm (5-6 ship lists), and Dash+something.

On 2/21/2017 at 3:13 AM, Keffisch said:

With the increase in attack dice, Rebels can no longer rely on the age old crutch of Regen - and they haven't received anything in recent waves to compensate/balance it out.

This is pretty much it. Other factions are getting instant non action evades through things like x7, latts razzi crew, concord dawn title. Rebels are getting actions to pass focus tokens ala jyn erso, or abilities to reroll dice like M9G8 or jess pava or rey. This RNG defense to go along with their 1 and 2 agi ships is not enough. Rex is a good ability, but stuck on a tie fighter. Its like sticking old terochs ability on a Z95.

I've been thinking about what Keffisch said, about how Rebels havent received anything in recent waves to balance out the declining effectiveness of Regen.

And i realized something. I've come to quite a startling conclusion.

Can anyone name a new central mechanic that Rebels have received in the last 3 waves? Imperials got Palp in Wave 7, and then got x/7 in Wave 8. Scum got Tractor Beams, torp scouts, Manaroo.

All Rebels have received is new ships to play the same stuff we've been using for forever on. I guess the closest to "new" is the K-Wing, which we got SLAM on. But look at the T-70, the ARC-170, the U-Wing. Rebels haven't actually received anything that became a major player in a large number of Rebel lists. When the Empire got Palp, it became the core of the overwhelming majority of Imperial lists. Manaroo is in an overwhelming majority of effective Scum lists.

Rebels don't have anything that can be identified as being in an overwhelming majority of lists....except R2-D2.

Rebels haven't really gotten anything NEW new, we've just got new ships to put the same stuff on that we put on everything else.

I'm not really sure you can say "scum got Tractor Beams" when anyone can take the Tractor Beam. They may get auto-tractor, which is about the only good way to use Tractor Beam Tokens, but that's not on the Tractor Beam itself, if that makes any sense. I mean, not even scum actually take Tractor Beams.

That said I've been flying:

Norra Wexley (40)
ARC-170 (29), R2-D2 (4), Push the Limit (3), Tail Gunner (2), Alliance Overhaul (0), Vectored Thrusters (2)

Braylen Stramm (32)
ARC-170 (25), R3-A2 (2), Gunner (5), Alliance Overhaul (0)

Gold Squadron Pilot (28)
Y-Wing (18), R4-D6 (1), Twin Laser Turret (6), Hull Upgrade (3)

lately and been having fun. Full disclosure, 99% of that is simulator flying. I haven't gotten a game in for a while now, but when I do that's the next list I'm going to try. Against Mindlink lists, making sure Braylen can line up two shots is very important for shutting down multiple ships. If you can get two shots, one against a stressed ship and one against an unstressed ship, make sure to shoot the stressed ship first. They get a second stress, passing one to everyone else, then you shoot your gunner shot (unless your dice are on fire) at the previously unstressed ship. Boom, two double-stressed ships. Y-Wing is pretty good at plinking wounds, and the R4/Hull upgrade pair keeps him around. It actually gives him the same hull/shields as the Arcs.

I'm sure in actual play it will be garbage, but I'm keen to try it out.

3 minutes ago, streamdragon said:

I'm not really sure you can say "scum got Tractor Beams" when anyone can take the Tractor Beam. They may get auto-tractor, which is about the only good way to use Tractor Beam Tokens, but that's not on the Tractor Beam itself, if that makes any sense. I mean, not even scum actually take Tractor Beams.

That said I've been flying:

Norra Wexley (40)
ARC-170 (29), R2-D2 (4), Push the Limit (3), Tail Gunner (2), Alliance Overhaul (0), Vectored Thrusters (2)

Braylen Stramm (32)
ARC-170 (25), R3-A2 (2), Gunner (5), Alliance Overhaul (0)

Gold Squadron Pilot (28)
Y-Wing (18), R4-D6 (1), Twin Laser Turret (6), Hull Upgrade (3)

lately and been having fun. Full disclosure, 99% of that is simulator flying. I haven't gotten a game in for a while now, but when I do that's the next list I'm going to try. Against Mindlink lists, making sure Braylen can line up two shots is very important for shutting down multiple ships. If you can get two shots, one against a stressed ship and one against an unstressed ship, make sure to shoot the stressed ship first. They get a second stress, passing one to everyone else, then you shoot your gunner shot (unless your dice are on fire) at the previously unstressed ship. Boom, two double-stressed ships. Y-Wing is pretty good at plinking wounds, and the R4/Hull upgrade pair keeps him around. It actually gives him the same hull/shields as the Arcs.

I'm sure in actual play it will be garbage, but I'm keen to try it out.

I don't mean specifically the cannon, i mean the mechanic itself. Let's be honest, Tractor Beam as a mechanic belongs to Scum. Maybe not in technicality, but in practicality.

6 minutes ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

I don't mean specifically the cannon, i mean the mechanic itself. Let's be honest, Tractor Beam as a mechanic belongs to Scum. Maybe not in technicality, but in practicality.

I cannot really argue with that. If x7 weren't so busted Tractor xDs might have become a thing, but it was not to be.

I can only say that I play the game [mostly] for fun and the Rebels are far more entertaining for me than the other factions right now. When I play more competitively, I typically still stick with Rebels for the challenge.

1 hour ago, Razgriz25thinf said:

I've been thinking about what Keffisch said, about how Rebels havent received anything in recent waves to balance out the declining effectiveness of Regen.

And i realized something. I've come to quite a startling conclusion.

Can anyone name a new central mechanic that Rebels have received in the last 3 waves? Imperials got Palp in Wave 7, and then got x/7 in Wave 8. Scum got Tractor Beams, torp scouts, Manaroo.

All Rebels have received is new ships to play the same stuff we've been using for forever on. I guess the closest to "new" is the K-Wing, which we got SLAM on. But look at the T-70, the ARC-170, the U-Wing. Rebels haven't actually received anything that became a major player in a large number of Rebel lists. When the Empire got Palp, it became the core of the overwhelming majority of Imperial lists. Manaroo is in an overwhelming majority of effective Scum lists.

Rebels don't have anything that can be identified as being in an overwhelming majority of lists....except R2-D2.

Rebels haven't really gotten anything NEW new, we've just got new ships to put the same stuff on that we put on everything else.

This is spot on. Rebels(and Imps to a lesser degree) got left behind in the last 2+ waves. Power creep I can understand but unbalanced power creep for one faction has been bugging me for a while. It is plainly obvious that FFG wanted to buff Scum into a legitimate 3rd faction but went a little overboard. The scary thing is that with the 12 month design cycle it may not even be over yet. The C-ROC and whatever is in the pipeline after that will probably make it even worse.

FFG keeps pushing rebel synergy, but rebel synergy is bad. So the empire gets Palpatine while scum gets minds link and manaroo. Meanwhile, here's shara. Oh, you don't like that? How about a ps3 t70 that really wants to formation fly and also doesn't have an ept? That can totally hang with the caster and jump, right?

And just for lulz, asajj hard counters Nora. Because **** you that's why.

If they want rebel synergy to be a thing, maybe they should stop putting terrible pilot abilities on rebel ships. And maybe add some upgrades that are even half as good as zuckuss

When Scum gets a release, their entire structure of list building gets completely redesigned.

When Imperials get a release, they get yet another excellent, cost-efficient choice to mix and match into their lists at will, like Legos.

When Rebels get a release, we stick R2-D2 on it and budget the points for Biggs.

Beginning to see the problem?

I think there's A LOT of things that will never been considerate for the Rebel Side.

-They are the most life-ships in the game.

-They still the best turrets carriers.

-They are the best bombs carriers.

-They are the best at double tap (VCX actually can shot 4 times)

-The thing of crews are not true at all. Rey is amazing, Kanan is stunning, Jan Ors and Katarn works pretty well. Even Jyn can work.

And Sabine.....

-They still the regen lords.

-Kanan/Biggs, 2K, 3K, Dash/Miranda, Dash/Lothal, Rey/X, FatHan/x....I can count precisely 3 Scum lists and just 2(3) Imperial lists. What are we talking about?

Yes, that's true. For the first time in the game, Rebels-needs-skill. No old Fathan in the pwt meta, no 4Y, etc..now, rebel players needs to learn how to get in arc, how to slam, how to drop bombs. And surely, Parattanni is way easier to fly (for others, I still lose with it, and win with Brobots but is my playstile), and that's an HUGE motivation to bring it into regionals. I'm spending money, efforts, why I have to risk with other lists?

But doesn't mean that Rebels are into a bad spot. My 2 cents

PS: let's try new compositions for god sake! Rebel Tie fighter is amazing, and no one has tried 4U. But is the standard..ships get noticed 2 waves after

the Kwing is still going strong, however generally speaking the rebel's gimmicks have not been very good forcing them to fall back on the annoying habit of stealing from other factions, something scum has been doing and doing better meaning that it's hard to find something to do with rebels that you cant already do better with other factions

TLDR: Rebel ships are UP and scum are better theives

Rebels have some of the very best lists in the game at the moment. Triple K is always a contender for the top spot, Dash-Lite + Miranda has won and Kanan/Biggs has a decent chunk of Regional wins, too. That new Herra/Ashoka list from Yavin looks like an absolute nightmare to face. My friend Stepjan did really well at Yavin with his Norra/Rey build. You can definitely succeed with Rebels in this meta, and there's plenty of evidence to back that up.

24 minutes ago, Cerve said:

-Kanan/Biggs, 2K, 3K, Dash/Miranda, Dash/Lothal, Rey/X, FatHan/x....I can count precisely 3 Scum lists and just 2(3) Imperial lists. What are we talking about?

I assume that they are all not percieved as top tier lists. They are all good, but none are as good as the top tier scum/imperial lists.

Which allows for more diversity on the rebel side. I believe however that they are good enough .

Turrets, regen, bombs (far better with Sabine), droids, stresshogs and now have access to illicit upgrade. Win three in a row world championship

Yeap Rebels are weak...

Rebels have always tended towards mid-range ships - more emphasis on firepower than active defence, and more hull and shields than rather than maneuverability and repositioning.

Unfortunately recent waves have seen massive increases in both damage output and damage absorption. This means that Rebels now struggle to do enough damage, can't move out of the way, and basically have a timer in which to win a game because their ships can't completely tank attacks.

Note that this issue is NOT limited to the Rebel faction. There are many Imperial and S&V ships that are affected by the same issue - Firespray, Y-wing, Z-95, TIE fighters, and so on. Rebels also have a few notable exceptions (i.e. the K-wing bomber and some Ghost builds).

What Rebels don't really have though is a decent variety of ships that are still effective to choose from. A lot of their staples have gone such as regen - as discussed this is mostly dead because it's beaten by 'surge' damage. K-wings work well, but they're weird because it almost doesn't feel like you're playing X-wing. The Ghost can work, but often it's a giant TLT carrier. And the classic starfighters (A-wing, B-wing, X-wing, Y-wing) are almost nowhere to be found.

31 minutes ago, Hedgehogmech said:

Rebels have always tended towards mid-range ships - more emphasis on firepower than active defence, and more hull and shields than rather than maneuverability and repositioning.

Unfortunately recent waves have seen massive increases in both damage output and damage absorption. This means that Rebels now struggle to do enough damage, can't move out of the way, and basically have a timer in which to win a game because their ships can't completely tank attacks.

Note that this issue is NOT limited to the Rebel faction. There are many Imperial and S&V ships that are affected by the same issue - Firespray, Y-wing, Z-95, TIE fighters, and so on. Rebels also have a few notable exceptions (i.e. the K-wing bomber and some Ghost builds).

What Rebels don't really have though is a decent variety of ships that are still effective to choose from. A lot of their staples have gone such as regen - as discussed this is mostly dead because it's beaten by 'surge' damage. K-wings work well, but they're weird because it almost doesn't feel like you're playing X-wing. The Ghost can work, but often it's a giant TLT carrier. And the classic starfighters (A-wing, B-wing, X-wing, Y-wing) are almost nowhere to be found.

This. Except for the part where you don't see the A-wing, that little ship is a marvel, filling 3 niches all by itself (blocker ps1 with boost, anti-ace via snap shot +juke/CS, and proton rocket delivery aces).

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I assume that they are all not percieved as top tier lists. They are all good, but none are as good as the top tier scum/imperial lists.

Which allows for more diversity on the rebel side. I believe however that they are good enough .

In my opinion, is just a matter of semplicity, not competitive level.

Why I have to take Miranda/Esege into a Regional, keeping my mind over the effort and get results, when I can get results drinking a beer and flying Parattanni?

But as competitive level, Rebels are fine as Scum and Imperials.

2 hours ago, Giledhil said:

This. Except for the part where you don't see the A-wing, that little ship is a marvel, filling 3 niches all by itself (blocker ps1 with boost, anti-ace via snap shot +juke/CS, and proton rocket delivery aces).

Why pay for a blocker though? Mindlink = who cares? Defenders = who cares? Even Dengaroo, unless you block manaroo which is pretty difficult, who cares?

Proton rocket delivery is a bit meh really - you want to spend minimum 20pts on 1 5 dice shot? That's 4 damage at most on a defender, if it rolls triple blanks and you roll all hits. Then you get 4K'ed and you can't do anything for the rest of the game. Snap shot is also expensive for what it does - obviously, if you're running against soontir it'll be lovely, but maximum 2 damage against vessery or ryad is a bit meh. Let alone vs a large ship.

I'm not worried about power creep in this game per se - as long as old, underpowered, unused ships get a bit of the power creep too. For example, we have the defender which went from unplayed to top tier.

What I think is the issue, is unbalanced power creep. Rebels by and large aren't getting regularly to the top tables. Yavin showed this, by having 1 rebel list in the top 8. Admittedly, rebels have varied lists, but none are top tier like paratanni or x7s.

1 hour ago, ThalanirIII said:

Why pay for a blocker though? Mindlink = who cares? Defenders = who cares? Even Dengaroo, unless you block manaroo which is pretty difficult, who cares?

Proton rocket delivery is a bit meh really - you want to spend minimum 20pts on 1 5 dice shot? That's 4 damage at most on a defender, if it rolls triple blanks and you roll all hits. Then you get 4K'ed and you can't do anything for the rest of the game. Snap shot is also expensive for what it does - obviously, if you're running against soontir it'll be lovely, but maximum 2 damage against vessery or ryad is a bit meh. Let alone vs a large ship.

I'm not worried about power creep in this game per se - as long as old, underpowered, unused ships get a bit of the power creep too. For example, we have the defender which went from unplayed to top tier.

What I think is the issue, is unbalanced power creep. Rebels by and large aren't getting regularly to the top tables. Yavin showed this, by having 1 rebel list in the top 8. Admittedly, rebels have varied lists, but none are top tier like paratanni or x7s.

Actually yes, blocking is less and less efficient nowadays.

Snap shot, on the other hand, paired with juke, is an excellent anti-ace tool. That being said, it works best against low HP aces, that tend to be replaced by biffy defenders...

Edit : note that a 4k-ing defender still faces the wrong way if blocked, that's still useful.