7 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

We get the argument, @lazycomet . The fact that there's an equally compelling argument on the other side is why the question was asked of a designer. Personally, I can see both sides.

Given the fragility of Huge ships, and how generally un-scary they are compared to equivalent points of Small and Large ships, I tend to think ruling on the side of using Esege is the right way to go.

Either way, Epic Rules in relation to FOCUS/EVADE/STRESS were in no way FUTURE-READY... It's time to clean Epic up a whole lot.

But I still say that "Stress as a Currency" is a more pressing issue than "Can we Fudge the Rules only long enough to exploit Esege's Focus Token?"

Just now, lazycomet said:

Either way, Epic Rules in relation to FOCUS/EVADE/STRESS were in no way FUTURE-READY... It's time to clean Epic up a whole lot.

But I still say that "Stress as a Currency" is a more pressing issue than "Can we Fudge the Rules only long enough to exploit Esege's Focus Token?"

I agree on both points (though I disagree with the characterization of the second). I love playing Epic. It's really not very suitable for real competition, but I still think it should be cleaned up as much as possible.

If you want to rope and maintain casuals in this game, set up a Corvette versus Raider Epic battle somewhere with heavy nerd-traffic. It's just mesmerizing to see those ships, and all the fighters, on the table.

Epic ships as a whole are a mess and horrendously overpriced. The only reason i enjoy using them is because ZOMG BIG SHIP !!! mentality.

These things are suppose to be command vessels to fighter squads. Why they dont have multiple innate actions and various automatic effects is beyond me.Even simple stuff like "When a friendly non-huge ship is attacking a ship you have targetlocked they may change one blank to a hit" would be amazing and bring the epics higher than just ZOMG BIG SHIP !!!!

Heck, theyre even squishier than their nonhuge brethren. Dunno how many times ive had my raider's nose go from full hp to wrecked in 1 round, and only between 4-6 ships at that.
They shouldnt be offensively powerful except against other huge ships. After all the point of fighters is to both hit weak points of large ships AND deal with fighters. Which also brings to mind why there isnt an "escort" rule for huge ships ("When defending, if you have friendly non-huge ships within range1 of the attacker and the attacker is non-huge, reduce their attack by 1 die per friendly ship") - its so...SO easy to just alpha strike huge ships despite the screen of TIE fighters sitting in the way.

2 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Epic ships as a whole are a mess and horrendously overpriced. The only reason i enjoy using them is because ZOMG BIG SHIP !!! mentality.

These things are suppose to be command vessels to fighter squads. Why they dont have multiple innate actions and various automatic effects is beyond me.Even simple stuff like "When a friendly non-huge ship is attacking a ship you have targetlocked they may change one blank to a hit" would be amazing and bring the epics higher than just ZOMG BIG SHIP !!!!

Exactly. It would be easy to simply insert "When a friendly ship is attacking, you may spend one Energy to turn one [blank] result into a [hit] result" into the rules for all Epic ships.

(Did I mention I love Epic? And it's definitely because "ZOMG BIG SHIP !!!!" ... but it's also because it just completely clears away the tourney metagame crap.)

11 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

(Did I mention I love Epic? And it's definitely because "ZOMG BIG SHIP !!!!" ... but it's also because it just completely clears away the tourney metagame crap.)

Well, not completely . A lot of ships that are good in the metagame are very good in epic, too. It's just that most of the people who are interested in playing Epic don't want to play the same old popular ships, so you end up with diverse, and very interesting squads. Man, I want to play some epic!

19 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Epic ships as a whole are a mess and horrendously overpriced. The only reason i enjoy using them is because ZOMG BIG SHIP !!! mentality.

These things are suppose to be command vessels to fighter squads. Why they dont have multiple innate actions and various automatic effects is beyond me.Even simple stuff like "When a friendly non-huge ship is attacking a ship you have targetlocked they may change one blank to a hit" would be amazing and bring the epics higher than just ZOMG BIG SHIP !!!!

Heck, theyre even squishier than their nonhuge brethren. Dunno how many times ive had my raider's nose go from full hp to wrecked in 1 round, and only between 4-6 ships at that.
They shouldnt be offensively powerful except against other huge ships. After all the point of fighters is to both hit weak points of large ships AND deal with fighters. Which also brings to mind why there isnt an "escort" rule for huge ships ("When defending, if you have friendly non-huge ships within range1 of the attacker and the attacker is non-huge, reduce their attack by 1 die per friendly ship") - its so...SO easy to just alpha strike huge ships despite the screen of TIE fighters sitting in the way.

Those are some really good thoughts.

24 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I agree on both points (though I disagree with the characterization of the second). I love playing Epic. It's really not very suitable for real competition, but I still think it should be cleaned up as much as possible.

If you want to rope and maintain casuals in this game, set up a Corvette versus Raider Epic battle somewhere with heavy nerd-traffic. It's just mesmerizing to see those ships, and all the fighters, on the table.

Very true. My games of Epic have drawn crowds of non-StarWars, non-MiniaturesGamers to watch and take pictures.

14 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Exactly. It would be easy to simply insert "When a friendly ship is attacking, you may spend one Energy to turn one [blank] result into a [hit] result" into the rules for all Epic ships.

(Did I mention I love Epic? And it's definitely because "ZOMG BIG SHIP !!!!" ... but it's also because it just completely clears away the tourney metagame crap.)

I want to play test whether spending Energy from your pool to convert focus results (offense and defence) is viable alternative. It can result in some good attacks/results, but it is also a very restricted resource. I guess my fear is that the ordnance tubes Raiders or Corvettes who have less energy consumption become a bit (maybe a lot) better.

i'd love to play bigger than 300pt epic games but sadly the only people interested in epic games at all have no idea how huge ships work so it takes forever . My 300pt games with these people take longer than my 40k games...and thats a very sad thought.

edit: i think simply spending an energy to get focus effects would be overpowered. Actionless mods, and remember these bigger ships are not suppose to be powerhouses. The fighters do the damage, the huge ship does the intel sweeps and support stuff...just right now we have very little of that that isnt a bloody action!!

50 minutes ago, lazycomet said:

Very true. My games of Epic have drawn crowds of non-StarWars, non-MiniaturesGamers to watch and take pictures.

Further more, those crowds can actually recognize the game comes from Star Wars, where as with the current standard set up people ask "what's that?" As they don't recognize the K-wings and Lancers in the game.

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

Well, not completely . A lot of ships that are good in the metagame are very good in epic, too. It's just that most of the people who are interested in playing Epic don't want to play the same old popular ships, so you end up with diverse, and very interesting squads. Man, I want to play some epic!

Those are some really good thoughts.

I agree completely that people build more diversely in epic. I can't play without generic interceptors in my games. Would a squad full of defenders be stronger? Yes. I have more fun with my favorite ship though.

2 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

[...]

Given the fragility of Huge ships, and how generally un-scary they are compared to equivalent points of Small and Large ships, [...]

I know this doesn't help Epic ships but looking at the movies (not much but still), The Clone Wars and Rebels it really is fairly thematic that these ships fall so easily to the small base ships.

Big ships can be scary but without a proper escort they fall quickly. And in this game, Star Wars: X-Wing, the scale is such that we are already close to these ships and the Huge ships aren't really that big in a Star Wars universe. Except for the ramming, they seem about right.

The thing is, if they're "only as good" as Small or Large ships, then why are they limited by Epic Points?

I'd like to see them be very, very useful as the centerpiece of an Epic fleet. I would modify my above (applicable to all Epic ships as a general rule) to:

"When another friendly ship at Range 1-3 is attacking, you may spend one Energy to turn one of that ship's [blank] results into a [hit] result."

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

The thing is, if they're "only as good" as Small or Large ships, then why are they limited by Epic Points?

I'd like to see them be very, very useful as the centerpiece of an Epic fleet. I would modify my above (applicable to all Epic ships as a general rule) to:

"When another friendly ship at Range 1-3 is attacking, you may spend one Energy to turn one of that ship's [blank] results into a [hit] result."

Could just make a team slot that does that. Just change the wording to "when another friendly ship is attacking with a primary weapon....". Would see alot of play.

I hope they do a campaign expansion for X-Wing ala Armada and include a much cleaner, concise Epic rulebook.

Please FFG, make this happen.

6 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Exactly. It would be easy to simply insert "When a friendly ship is attacking, you may spend one Energy to turn one [blank] result into a [hit] result" into the rules for all Epic ships.

I think the rule should be even more broad: "when attacking or defending, you may spend 1 energy to turn your (eyeball)s into (hit) or (evade).

And a general errata that huge ships get 1 extra energy at the start of the activation phase.

And get rid of the "once per round" restriction on Gunnery Team".

22 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

I think the rule should be even more broad: "when attacking or defending, you may spend 1 energy to turn your (eyeball)s into (hit) or (evade).

And a general errata that huge ships get 1 extra energy at the start of the activation phase.

And get rid of the "once per round" restriction on Gunnery Team".

I love the idea for gunnery team. It would go from "meh" to awesome.

I'd really like to see something more tangible with regards to the concept of a fighter screen.

Something like, when a huge ship is defending:

Friendly ships count as obstructing.

or

Roll 1 extra defence dice for every other friendly small or friendly large ship within range X of the attacker, up to a maximum of Y.

(I know physically it might not make sense (how does a huge ship hide behind a small one), but it's thematically meant to represent the harassing nature of the screeners.)

or

If any friendly ships' base is crossed by the closest point to closest point line from the attacker, you may force the attacker to roll 1 less dice. If you do, choose 1 of those friendly ships, the attacker rolls 1 red dice and that ship suffers any [hit] or [crit] rolled.

(basically bleed off enemy attack dice with sacrificial screeners - perhaps even make it 1 auto damage, so you can choose between certain damage on a screener, or a chance of damage on the huge... VCX's & Decimators might find a role as escorts)

15 hours ago, lazycomet said:

a) Focus, evade, and stress tokens do not affect huge ships.

b) [Esege] When another friendly ship at Range 1-2 is attacking, it may treat your focus tokens as its own.

So no, [Esege] doesn't allow an Epic Ship to "spend" a focus, ever. Period.

Sky isn't falling, I never said it was. Zuckuss-Epic-Exploit isn't about Damage Potential or even Winning Games... it's about denying other STRESS BROKERS (Latts Razzi, BMST, etc) from even tapping into the Pool that **should** still be there even if Epic Ships ignore stress.

You 100% sure on (b)?

I asked FFG if the Tantive can focus using Esege Tuketu's focus. The answer is - yes, yes it can;

"In response to your rules question: Rules Question: Does Esege Tuketu's ability work with the Tantive IV?
Esege Tuketu: "when another friendly ship at range 1-2 is attacking, it may treat your focus token as its own."
Can the Tantive use this focus?
Thanks!

Yes, the CR90 is able to spend Esege’s focus tokens.

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
[email protected] "

13 minutes ago, benskywalker said:

You 100% sure on (b)?

I asked FFG if the Tantive can focus using Esege Tuketu's focus. The answer is - yes, yes it can;

"In response to your rules question: Rules Question: Does Esege Tuketu's ability work with the Tantive IV?
Esege Tuketu: "when another friendly ship at range 1-2 is attacking, it may treat your focus token as its own."
Can the Tantive use this focus?
Thanks!

Yes, the CR90 is able to spend Esege’s focus tokens.

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
[email protected] "

They need to put in in an Epic FAQ.

8 hours ago, Ken at Sunrise said:

I know this doesn't help Epic ships but looking at the movies (not much but still), The Clone Wars and Rebels it really is fairly thematic that these ships fall so easily to the small base ships.

Big ships can be scary but without a proper escort they fall quickly. And in this game, Star Wars: X-Wing, the scale is such that we are already close to these ships and the Huge ships aren't really that big in a Star Wars universe. Except for the ramming, they seem about right.

Yea, that's why epic definitely needs a escort action/ability. It can even be done in a way that requires and rewards good flying.

Just now, benskywalker said:

Yea, that's why epic definitely needs a escort action/ability. It can even be done in a way that requires and rewards good flying.

Maybe they can do something with that coordinate action. Giving it a taunt like effect making small or large ships roll 1 fewer attack dice if they attack you when one of these ships you performed a <coordinate> action with inside the attackers firing arc.

1 minute ago, Marinealver said:

They need to put in in an Epic FAQ.

I don't disagree. Epic could use a FAQ. Frank Brooks saying would seem to lend credence to the argument that Esege's focus token can modify Huge ship attack dice though.

At this point, I would settle for an update to the Epic tourny rules.

1 minute ago, Marinealver said:

Maybe they can do something with that coordinate action. Giving it a taunt like effect making small or large ships roll 1 fewer attack dice if they attack you when one of these ships you performed a <coordinate> action with inside the attackers firing arc.

Yea, Epic could really use some attention. Hopefully the C-Roc is a sign of more to come. A rules update/FAQ would be awesome. I don't mind house ruling, but I'm sure FFG can come up with something much better than whatever I will think up.

12 hours ago, benskywalker said:

I don't disagree. Epic could use a FAQ. Frank Brooks saying would seem to lend credence to the argument that Esege's focus token can modify Huge ship attack dice though.

Yeah but the argument is still at what level of communications this was. A simple email might be good enough to help a TO in a non-premier tournament but it does not qualify as an "official ruling". It's like lending someone $50 (or $5,000) with only getting a verbal "uh-huh" to the question "Will you pay me back next month?" The person whom you gave $50 to can legally argue it was a gift as there was no contract or promissory note or any other notarized document stating that there was an agreement between both parties and one party has violated that trust. Sure an email from the devs have more weight than say a TO at LFGS. But it is still not the official ruling which is why they should at least put it in the FAQ or Errata on Huge Ship Rules.