Jamming barrier has you remove half the dice, rounded down, but does not count as obstruction. Obstruction has you remove a die.

So my question is, which happens first? A 2 dice front arc shot could be obstructed to 1 die, then halved and rounded back up to 1. Or it could be halved to 1, and then obstructed to 0. My thought is that the attacker gets to choose the order of operations here.

But what about card effects, like Cracken? I, the defender would get to choose wether it triggers, and if I am the second player anyways, the first player would have to trigger his effects first.

Thank you

though it still doesn't address the issue of a card effect

Also, does .5 round down to 0 or up to 1? That is something else to consider because different institutes/fields of study do things differently.

In regards to Cracken, there is no timing issue. You don't get to choose if you are obstructed. If speed = 3, you are obstructed. Thus you follow the obstruction rules. And you should always do obstruction before Jamming Barrier so you have at least 1 die to throw.

2 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Also, does .5 round down to 0 or up to 1?

Jamming barrier has you remove half the dice, rounded down

12 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Jamming barrier has you remove half the dice, rounded down

Not disagreeing with that. But do you consider .5 the threshold to round down to 0? Most people think of .49 the threshold. And most people already round .5 up to 1 when it says you round up like brace, for the same reason: .5 is their threshold to round up.

For consistency, I think .5 should go both ways. So Bracing 7 damage rounds up to 4, while JB rounds 7 dice down to 3.

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

Not disagreeing with that. But do you consider .5 the threshold to round down to 0? Most people think of .49 the threshold. And most people already round .5 up to 1 when it says you round up like brace, for the same reason: .5 is their threshold to round up.

For consistency, I think .5 should go both ways. So Bracing 7 damage rounds up to 4, while JB rounds 7 dice down to 3.

It literally says on the card.

You remove half the dice round down. Whats difficult to understand here? 7 dice are jamming barrier to 4 as 3.5 rounded down to 3 are removed.

16 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

In regards to Cracken, there is no timing issue. You don't get to choose if you are obstructed. If speed = 3, you are obstructed. Thus you follow the obstruction rules. And you should always do obstruction before Jamming Barrier so you have at least 1 die to throw.

The issue is that it's a card effect, specifically the defenders card effect, versus an obstacle effect. Normally, first players resolves his card effects before second player card effects with the same timing. But this is an objective card effect versus a second player card effect

4 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

It literally says on the card.

You remove half the dice round down. Whats difficult to understand here? 7 dice are jamming barrier to 4 as 3.5 rounded down to 3 are removed.

You clearly don't understand what I am asking.

Just now, Parkdaddy said:

The issue is that it's a card effect, specifically the defenders card effect, versus an obstacle effect. Normally, first players resolves his card effects before second player card effects with the same timing. But this is an objective card effect versus a second player card effect

But you only resolve players card in 1st to 2nd if there is a timing problem. Cracken doesn't have a timing. You are always obstructed.

Clearly, are you going to attempt to eloquent it better?

There's no "threshold" for rounding in Armada. If the instruction is to round up, then even 7.000001 is rounded to 8. If the instruction is to round down, then even 7.999999 is still rounded to 7.

So, for Brace, 7 damage is halved to 3.5, rounded up to 4.

Against JB, 7 dice are halved to 3.5, rounded up to 3 (i.e. you roll 4).

The timing is "while defending."

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

Clearly, are you going to attempt to eloquent it better?

No.

There's no timing for being Obstructed* - but there's definitely a timing for applying obstructed, which is (RRG, p.8) "before he rolls dice during the Roll Attack Dice step"

This is the same timing ( "before rolling" ) as Jamming Barrier, and they are both attacker effects. So the attacker chooses the order (he should always choose obstruction first).

*: well, yes there is, "while defending", but this does not come into play here.

Why wouldn't it

4 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

*: well, yes there is, "while defending", but this does not come into play here.

It is a defender effect

1 minute ago, Parkdaddy said:

The timing is "while defending."

Oh I see now.

So Jamming Barrier says: Special Rule: While attacking, if line of sight is traced across the line between the two objective tokens, the attacker must choose and remove half of the dice from the attack pool rounded down, before rolling.

And Attacking says: Roll Attack Dice: Gather attack dice to form the attack pool and roll those dice. Gather only the dice that are appropriate for the range of the attack as indicated by the icons on the range ruler.

And Obstruction says: If an attack is obstructed by one or more ships or obstacles, the attacker must choose and remove one die from his attack pool before he rolls dice during the “Roll Attack Dice” step.

I don't think the defender has a timing issue, since the attacker has to go through these steps. They still have the choice on to resolve them however. Cracken just gives obstruction while defending against ships, so you follow the obstruction rules.

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

Oh I see now.

So Jamming Barrier says: Special Rule: While attacking, if line of sight is traced across the line between the two objective tokens, the attacker must choose and remove half of the dice from the attack pool rounded down, before rolling.

I don't think the defender has a timing issue, since the attacker has to go through these steps. They still have the choice on to resolve them however. Cracken just gives obstruction while defending against ships, so you follow the obstruction rules.

But "while attacking" and "while defending" (Cracken) are the same timing, from different perspectives. But one is an attacker effect, and the other is a defender effect. In a game where the attacker has the initiative, his effects are resolved first. And then the defenders.

1 minute ago, Parkdaddy said:

Why wouldn't it

Because it's broader than the one that actually matters ("before rolling dice").

The discussion here is not on whether the attack is or is not obstructed (it is - no disagreement there), it's whether or not the effect of obstruction should be triggered before the effect of jamming barrier.

The cards have different timings and owners, but the effects both have the same timer and affect the attacker only - therefore he gets to choose the order.

There is a better existing thread on this, but I cant find it

8 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

The cards have different timings and owners, but the effects both have the same timer and affect the attacker only - therefore he gets to choose the order.

That is the kind of explanation I'm looking for. Though, this is where we get into some murky water.

For Dual Turbolaser Turrets, do you have to remove the die before using other card effects? Most would say yes, you must fully resolve each card's effect before moving on to another effect. And the timing of the effects (versus the cards) is before rolling the attack pool. Thus, both effects must be fully resolved before moving on to another effect, when triggered. (Edit)

If Jamming barrier triggers first, the attacker can't wait for another card effect to happen before removing the dice. He must remove them then and there. And then the obstruction would apply. And then the poolnwould be rolled

7 minutes ago, Parkdaddy said:

That is the kind of explanation I'm looking for. Though, this is where we get into some murky water.

For Dual Turbolaser Turrets, do you have to remove the die before using other card effects? Most would say yes, you must fully resolve each card's effect before moving on to another effect. And the timing of the effects (versus the cards) is before rolling the attack pool. Thus, both effects must be fully resolved before rolling the attack pool.

If Jamming barrier triggers first, the attacker can't wait for another card effect to happen before removing the dice. He must remove them then and there. And then the obstruction would apply. And then the poolnwould be rolled

That's not how the cards work though. Both Cracken an JB identify a period of time within which a single effect can be invoked. The "while attacking" and "while defending" relate to the general period of time (i.e. during the resolution of an attack, which spans multiple steps), not to the effect itself. The timing of the effect itself is indicated within the card, and is "before rolling" (i.e. in Step 2).

Check out p. 2 of the RRG:

1. Step 0 of the attack procedure (not explicitly in the RRG, but implicit nonetheless): The intention to attack is declared, which creates an attacker. A ship/squadron is now attacking, so JB coverage begins.
2. Step 1 of the attack procedure: a target is declared. A ship/squadron is now defending, so Cracken coverage begins (the line of attack is now obstructed).
3. Step 2 of the attack procedure: dice are i) gathered and ii) rolled. Both obstruction (remove 1 die) and JB (remove half the dice) happen in between i) and ii). They are both instructions for the attacker, and so he may choose the order.

Also, you cannot have a timing conflict with a player and an objective. The objective is not owned by either player, so saying the 2nd player resolves after the objective is meaningless. The only timing conflict that resolves in a player order is when both players have a timing conflict at the same time.

As such, the attacker still gets to choose how JB and obstruction, regardless of its source, resolves.

I and convinced

Note that a card may have multiple effects, each with different timing instructions. That's the case, for example, with AFFM. The card is "activated" at the beginning of the Ship Phase, but the +1 speed is only triggered when a squadron is activated.

Same here, Cracken is activated as soon as the ship is defending, but the effect of Cracken is to add a virtual obstruction. The effect of the obstruction (remove 1 die) happens at a specific later step (before rolling dice).

The problem with DTT is that, while a timing (while attacking, specifically during step 3: resolve attack effects) is given for the first effect (add a die), none is given for the second effect (remove one die). In my opinion, that means they must both happen immediately after one another unless an effect with a more specific sub-timing (e.g. "after you add a die" or "before you discard a die") would somehow trigger in between.

... Didn't we do this one already?

I mean, 23 posts in an hour - this one went quick... but still.