I wonder if Kylo is going to have any effect. Knocking Fenn down to PS 0 would really hurt him. Fenn is so good because he's usually blasting something into oblivion before they can retaliate.

14 hours ago, Jo Jo said:

I wonder if Kylo is going to have any effect. Knocking Fenn down to PS 0 would really hurt him. Fenn is so good because he's usually blasting something into oblivion before they can retaliate.

If you are successfully hitting Fen with crits then you probably are already killing him and bumping him down to ps0 wont help to much.

1 hour ago, AtomicFryingPan said:

What if people just didn't hate on other lists and just played the game?

'Cause then the only things on the forum would be preview discussions and Joe Boss threads.

14 minutes ago, Jo Jo said:

I wonder if Kylo is going to have any effect. Knocking Fenn down to PS 0 would really hurt him. Fenn is so good because he's usually blasting something into oblivion before they can retaliate.

Kylo would shut down Asajj before Fenn. You have to actually land a crit to do anything and Fenn is one of those ships that generally goes poof when hes finally taking damage. Asajj only has 2 agility and her excess defense is oneshot stuff, while Fenn can just get stupid lucky over and over with his 4 green dice and title.

On 2/20/2017 at 10:05 AM, Stay On The Leader said:

It seems like having a supporting effect with no range restriction is just fundamentally unhealthy in the game. A lot of what is 'wrong' in Emperor Palpatine on a Lambda is also 'wrong' about Manaroo, especially as she's got a better ship than the Lambda and her ability can easily contribute more dice modification than Palpatine's ability does in a turn.

It combines so effectively with Mindlink (another non-ranged support ability) that it seems you get an awful lot for your 28pts.

I couldn't agree more. Once you've eliminated range restrictions and really any restrictions at all, you've committed to that design space that cannot be easy to undo or counter. It's fundamentally bad design to have such strong effects that are not restricted in any way.

Time will tell, but I suspect if there is ever an errata or second edition, more care will be taken for things that can apply without restriction (x7, Zuckuss, Palpatine, Manaroo, etc).

The reason this list is so successful, while retaining the illusion of "fair match-up" is because there's no single point that makes it, like with Palp Aces/Defenders' crazy defensive stacks. Its simply stupidly efficient for the points. It's not any of the ships' abilities alone, just the fact that the combined damage, meat and actions feel like you're getting 120 points worth of other squads.

- Fenn is like a PS9 Interceptor without Evade on its action bar, but shooting infinite Prockets for just 32 points.

- Manaroo's base platform is already some couple points undercosted, the closest comparison being WSF at 5 points more for a generic. Yes, I know its one health more, but the dial, abilities and slots, especially EPT more than make up for it.

- Asaj is crazy good with either free action-less control or effectively double-Evade plus Focus stacking. And now comes the biggest blunder of FFG points-balancing so far, that trumps even the harm that JMs have done in the costing department. Even though on paper, the Mobile Arc is cheaper than PWT, because of the action requirement, and "only" covering one extra direction than the main arc, in practice, things look wildly different. The ship itself is so fast, that simply circling the battlefield with the MA facing inwards, makes it equal to having the PWT in most situations. Better yet, this is still counting as "in arc" for Autothrusters' purpose, so it actually ends up getting free immunity to PWTs hard-counter. While keeping it's functionality! For cheaper!

I could go on throwing insults onto the people who have allowed a Falcon's-worth (IMHO even better) ship to cost some 40 points.

But instead, let me just underline how gravely I am disappointed with the playtesting process that has led to the trio (with emphasis on the Shadowcaster) being costed like that. Either that, or purposeful pushing of one faction's ships way below the regular power-levels, but I'd like to think it was just common humane ignorance.

34 minutes ago, Mef82 said:

- Asaj is crazy good with either free action-less control or effectively double-Evade plus Focus stacking. And now comes the biggest blunder of FFG points-balancing so far, that trumps even the harm that JMs have done in the costing department. Even though on paper, the Mobile Arc is cheaper than PWT, because of the action requirement, and "only" covering one extra direction than the main arc, in practice, things look wildly different. The ship itself is so fast, that simply circling the battlefield with the MA facing inwards, makes it equal to having the PWT in most situations. Better yet, this is still counting as "in arc" for Autothrusters' purpose, so it actually ends up getting free immunity to PWTs hard-counter. While keeping it's functionality! For cheaper!

You can only circle the battlefield with your arc facing inward if your opponent lets you do so. If I had to guess, I'd say I probably use 3-5 actions over the course of the average game to change my arc facing.

The Lancer is priced more or less like the Firespray. It's got a similar stat line and a similar action bar but the mobile arc ends up making it a better value.

1 hour ago, Mef82 said:

The reason this list is so successful, while retaining the illusion of "fair match-up" is because there's no single point that makes it, like with Palp Aces/Defenders' crazy defensive stacks. Its simply stupidly efficient for the points. It's not any of the ships' abilities alone, just the fact that the combined damage, meat and actions feel like you're getting 120 points worth of other squads.

- Fenn is like a PS9 Interceptor without Evade on its action bar, but shooting infinite Prockets for just 32 points.

- Manaroo's base platform is already some couple points undercosted, the closest comparison being WSF at 5 points more for a generic. Yes, I know its one health more, but the dial, abilities and slots, especially EPT more than make up for it.

- Asaj is crazy good with either free action-less control or effectively double-Evade plus Focus stacking. And now comes the biggest blunder of FFG points-balancing so far, that trumps even the harm that JMs have done in the costing department. Even though on paper, the Mobile Arc is cheaper than PWT, because of the action requirement, and "only" covering one extra direction than the main arc, in practice, things look wildly different. The ship itself is so fast, that simply circling the battlefield with the MA facing inwards, makes it equal to having the PWT in most situations. Better yet, this is still counting as "in arc" for Autothrusters' purpose, so it actually ends up getting free immunity to PWTs hard-counter. While keeping it's functionality! For cheaper!

I could go on throwing insults onto the people who have allowed a Falcon's-worth (IMHO even better) ship to cost some 40 points.

But instead, let me just underline how gravely I am disappointed with the playtesting process that has led to the trio (with emphasis on the Shadowcaster) being costed like that. Either that, or purposeful pushing of one faction's ships way below the regular power-levels, but I'd like to think it was just common humane ignorance.

-While the Jumpmaster probably is slightly underpriced (I think the problem was mostly the dial. Give it a red left-2 s-loop, no right s-loop at all, and red right turns, perhaps), the Wild Space Fringer is a poor comparison. The Generic YT freightors have always been junk. Making the Jumpmaster cost the same would simply be making the same mistake twice, but this time with foreknowledge.

-I'm Seconding WWHSD's comments on using the Shadow caster as a fat turret. Your opponent has to make some fairly glaring mistakes for that to happen. Stress also tends to cause a lot of problems- Apart from the crew slot, all of the Lancer's action economy* is based on actual actions (To turn the firing arc+ Push the Limit to get modifiers). The classic Fat turret, on the other hand, was very action independant- Predator didn't care, C-3P0 didn't care, Han and Chiraneua's abilities didn't care, and Isard only cared about stress. The Lancer might be the Falcon 2.0, but that would be because it fixes most of the issues that made the Falcon a problem. It might be a tad undercosted, but it's your own fault if your letting your opponent relive the wave V metagame.

*Well, the Lancer could equip Predator or Expertise, but the inabilty to move your arc while taking a normal action seems to have proven too big an opportunity cost this far.

22 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

You can only circle the battlefield with your arc facing inward if your opponent lets you do so. If I had to guess, I'd say I probably use 3-5 actions over the course of the average game to change my arc facing.

The Lancer is priced more or less like the Firespray. It's got a similar stat line and a similar action bar but the mobile arc ends up making it a better value.

And a noticeably better dial.

But I think @Mef82 makes the right point about failure of playtesting. There was a podcast interview with Alex Davy at some point where he said their design goals had been to try and boost ships up the efficiency level of the TIE Fighter, which was held out as the paragon of efficiency. Well, if that was the goal then you can only say their design efforts were an abject failure. Congratulations, you failed in that job so completely that you've driven TIE Fighters out of the game entirely because they're no longer even remotely good enough to justify spending even 12 points on. Hell, I wouldn't waste 10pts on an Academy Pilot.

21 minutes ago, Squark said:

-I'm Seconding WWHSD's comments on using the Shadow caster as a fat turret. Your opponent has to make some fairly glaring mistakes for that to happen. Stress also tends to cause a lot of problems- Apart from the crew slot, all of the Lancer's action economy* is based on actual actions (To turn the firing arc+ Push the Limit to get modifiers). The classic Fat turret, on the other hand, was very action independant- Predator didn't care, C-3P0 didn't care, Han and Chiraneua's abilities didn't care, and Isard only cared about stress. The Lancer might be the Falcon 2.0, but that would be because it fixes most of the issues that made the Falcon a problem. It might be a tad undercosted, but it's your own fault if your letting your opponent relive the wave V metagame.

Thing is, we're mostly talking about Attani lists here, so even if you have to move the arc in an Attani list, you're still very likely getting focus evade (in the form of Latts) on top of that, if not something else from Manaroo. I think the Shadowcaster by itself is just fine in terms of design.

Without Attani Mindlink or PTL the Shadow Caster is fine. Punchy pilot abilities, but not otherwise too good.

However they make uncomfortably good platforms for PTL and Attani Mindlink.

The effects of Attani and the Focus action in general are more subtle. You dont even always notice them when you play against Attani, you just always feel like your dice results are worse than your opponents. You almost have to math out the efficiency differences to get a good grasp.

Evade action, Palpatine and Zuckuss are definitetly more direct, so it is easier to just dislike them.

17 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Thing is, we're mostly talking about Attani lists here, so even if you have to move the arc in an Attani list, you're still very likely getting focus evade (in the form of Latts) on top of that, if not something else from Manaroo. I think the Shadowcaster by itself is just fine in terms of design.

Right, I forgot Attani Mindlink was in play, since the post I quoted was talking about the Shadow Caster in general.

8 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I don't see them adding a range limitation to Attani Mindlink because it makes the card more cumbersome during play.

They wont do this because flying Asajj out of range and then pre-measuring to the other 2 ships with the range ruler is pseudo-cheating.

I always felt the Jumpmaster expansion was the cause of a lot of problems with the scum factions balance. Not only are all the Jumpmasters stupidly undercosted, but Manaroo and Dengar (to a lesser degree) have incredible pilot abilities. Add to that the White S-loop (plus the rest of the dial), the plethora of excellent upgrade slots, and the big-base PWT with a barrel-roll, and you have a truly obnoxious ship.

I feel the Shadowcaster is also slightly undercosted (mostly just Asajj), but not nearly to the same degree as the Jumpmaster is. On the other hand, the Fang IMO is bang on correctly costed. It's good at doing it's R1 thing, but will evaporate if caught in a bad position much like an interceptor.

Combining all this, Parattani (again IMO) is propped up by the efficient chassis of the jumpmaster, combined with Manaroo's excellent pilot ability. Swap out Manaroo for Palob with Attani and TLT (or some other ship/loadout), and that list is instantly much weaker (though still good).

1 hour ago, CRCL said:

I always felt the Jumpmaster expansion was the cause of a lot of problems with the scum factions balance. Not only are all the Jumpmasters stupidly undercosted, but Manaroo and Dengar (to a lesser degree) have incredible pilot abilities. Add to that the White S-loop (plus the rest of the dial), the plethora of excellent upgrade slots, and the big-base PWT with a barrel-roll, and you have a truly obnoxious ship.

I feel the Shadowcaster is also slightly undercosted (mostly just Asajj), but not nearly to the same degree as the Jumpmaster is. On the other hand, the Fang IMO is bang on correctly costed. It's good at doing it's R1 thing, but will evaporate if caught in a bad position much like an interceptor.

Combining all this, Parattani (again IMO) is propped up by the efficient chassis of the jumpmaster, combined with Manaroo's excellent pilot ability. Swap out Manaroo for Palob with Attani and TLT (or some other ship/loadout), and that list is instantly much weaker (though still good).

Its a problem of all 3 being aggressively well costed.

Fenn Rau is aggresively undercosted and has great ability and PS9. That's a big big deal. (Losing evade is also a big deal though).

Manaroo has unlimited range and aggressively costed chassis.

And yes, the shadow caster seems to be falling into that same problem of being highly aggressively costed for its value. Asajj is a good pilot also.

If you traded any of these out the list would be much worse, which comes to show how overpowered these are compared to fairer options like HWKs.

1 hour ago, CRCL said:

I feel the Shadowcaster is also slightly undercosted (mostly just Asajj), but not nearly to the same degree as the Jumpmaster is.

Either the shadowcaster is undercosted, or the firespray is overcosted, as they basically cost the same. I think it's more that the firespray is overcosted personally. But maybe it's a bit of both.

The mobile firing arc makes the ship a pseudo PWT as if you fly well you'll rarely if ever have any blind spots to exploit. Plus since it's a secondary arc you can nullify auto thrusters which is an advantage over PWT's.

8 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Fenn Rau is aggresively undercosted and has great ability and PS9. That's a big big deal. (Losing evade is also a big deal though).

Fenn, on his own, is perfectly fine. Without Attanni and/or Manaroo he's just a regular old PtL ace who hits a bit harder than most, but can't token stack to compensate for that increased offence. Once you start using Attanni and Mana to plug that hole is when he starts to get problematic.

Just now, DR4CO said:

Fenn, on his own, is perfectly fine. Without Attanni and/or Manaroo he's just a regular old PtL ace who hits slightly harder than most, but can't token stack to compensate for that increased offence. Once you start using Attanni and Mana to plug that hole is when he gets overpowered.

I also agree. he really needed the focus he lost from not being Soontir. But I think if you look at his efficiency stats, he is a tad undercosted. Attanni exaggerates a slight 1 point ish advantage.

This is the point where the Restricted List really should be used.

Toss Atanni, Manaroo, Palpatine, R2-D2, Engine Upgrade, PTL, and /X7 on there and probably a few more, and then see what happens. I really do wish that they would use the Restricted list more than usage of errata.

4 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

Fenn, on his own, is perfectly fine. Without Attanni and/or Manaroo he's just a regular old PtL ace who hits slightly harder than most, but can't token stack to compensate for that increased offence. Once you start using Attanni and Mana to plug that hole is when he gets overpowered.

2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I also agree. he really needed the focus he lost from not being Soontir. But I think if you look at his efficiency stats, he is a tad undercosted. Attanni exaggerates a slight 1 point ish advantage.

Plus with Attanni you're getting mileage out of his whole dial, not just his green moves like a regular PtL ace. I've observed that the hard-1 and 2-Tallon in particular really let you aggressively pursue an enemy ship at R1 for multiple turns, whilst still being token'd up via Manaroo.

2 hours ago, CRCL said:

I always felt the Jumpmaster expansion was the cause of a lot of problems with the scum factions balance. Not only are all the Jumpmasters stupidly undercosted, but Manaroo and Dengar (to a lesser degree) have incredible pilot abilities. Add to that the White S-loop (plus the rest of the dial), the plethora of excellent upgrade slots, and the big-base PWT with a barrel-roll, and you have a truly obnoxious ship.

Before the JM5K, Scum was the red headed step child of competitive X-wing. It only had Borobots as a truly competitive option and, based on results, still wasn't enough to match Rebels and Empire.

Scum needed a few things above the power curve to compete IMO. Problem is Scum got a few too many things above the power curve, and jumped from least competitive option to most competitive option in a very short timespan.

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

If you traded any of these out the list would be much worse, which comes to show how overpowered these are compared to fairer options like HWKs.

To an extent, yes. I spent a long while playing Bobatanni instead of Paratanni and it's not that far behind. I breezed into a Regional Top 8 with Bobatanni and minimal practice.

6 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

To an extent, yes. I spent a long while playing Bobatanni instead of Paratanni and it's not that far behind. I breezed into a Regional Top 8 with Bobatanni and minimal practice.

yknow, actually boba really benefits from mindlink here, can take Latts too. I would totally play that list, i bet its fun too!

However: The reason why Asajj is so great is also because she can pass stress to wreck other attanii lists and the mirror match up. Though, im not sure exactly how the mirror match works. One good thing is it wasn't so stupidly stupidly stupidly overpowered like PRENERF1 3scouts that you could easily go 96 points and not feel pain. this list has exactly 100.

Seriously guys, remember the very first total prenerf 3scouts? with R4 ? I can't even remember the second nerf now?....

6 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Seriously guys, remember the very first total prenerf 3scouts? with R4 ? I can't even remember the second nerf now?....

What is dead, can never eye.