4 hours ago, JayDestroyaC said:

Judging a List by its total world championship wins instead, is exactly what I expect on the internet, irrational behaviour.
Lists can be powerful and overpowered and still not win the World Championship because there is always variance. Having a total of what, 5 World Championships until now, not exactly a good pool of results to base anything on, is it? You'd need at least 100, more like 1000 World Championships (with X7s participating) to make more of a educated guess about it.

This is like throwing a dice 5 times, then saying the '1' is not powerful enough because it never came up during 5 rolls.

I'm guessing rhetorical statements are lost on you.

Regardless, given the adequate sample sizes we have for tournaments, X7's performance is not justified enough to call it overpowered in contrast to say, the Phantom.

3 minutes ago, costi said:

Not really. If you constantly buff things one at a time, you enter an endless power creep loop - some stuff got buffed, so other stuff is now underpowered, so it needs a buff and so on...

Balancing by nerfing means that all the other options become stronger by comparison, so you don't need to bring them up to the new power level.

It is certainly interesting how you go about "balancing" unbalanced game elements, or combination thereof that turns out to be to powerfull, WITHOUT ADJUSTING POINTS.

I cannot remember if it has been stated before, but you clearly get the idea that "Lats Razi" was designed particularly to counter stress-(ab)using-aces and zuckus-(ab)using-ships (Dengar). By itself it looked like the medicine to cure the meta at that point in time it was developmened.

And now the cure (in a nasty combi with other mechanisms) turns out to be one part of the disease.

6 minutes ago, Sciencius said:

I cannot remember if it has been stated before, but you clearly get the idea that "Lats Razi" was designed particularly to counter stress-(ab)using-aces and zuckus-(ab)using-ships (Dengar). By itself it looked like the medicine to cure the meta at that point in time it was developmened.

And now the cure (in a nasty combi with other mechanisms) turns out to be one part of the disease.

Yes, and this is the MASSIVE problem with FFG's method trying to solve problems by printing solutions. The design lag between identifying a problem and R&Ding/printing the solution means that the problem may have changed shape by the time the solution arrives, and indeed may have gone entirely. I think we're still in the 'kill Aces, buff Scum' period (you think Jabba the Hutt won't send Scum even more over the top than they already are?). To me it's clear that FFG underestimated what Jumpmaster was going to do for Scum viability and are just pouring more and more buffs onto the faction, while hammering down harder on stuff that's already dead.

Netrunner chased it's own tail for YEARS trying to fix basic problems with this sort of methodology and never managed it. Either their fixes weren't strong enough or were total overkill that created an even worse problem.

6 hours ago, phild0 said:

It just occurred to me, you guys looking at result data should try to find what these power lists actually lost to and post that data. That way more of the community can see what kinds of lists actually have a chance. I mean, Parattani isnt going undefeated for every player, and the mirror match cant be the only thing knocking it out, so it HAS to be losing to something some times, and there might even be something it consistently loses to. Or the reverse, lets try to find what lists Parattani always beats so players can learn to just avoid those.

This seems like a something that would benefit more players than just telling us a certain list is awesome, etc and would actually be a useful community driven tool to constantly evolve the meta rather than put players in either the "join them" or "cry for nerfs" camp.

Well said.

2 hours ago, Oldpara said:

It's true. All range restricted support ships are almost useless.

But to be honest not only because of range restriction, but also because they lack survivability. If HWK Jan Ors would have 9/10 hull/shields like Palpatine/Manaroo it would be playable even with range restriction. They just don't live long enough to be worth taking. The same goes for TIE shuttle. Dies to quickly for what he does.

This wasn't always the case, though. At the 2014 World's 2 Jan Ors list made the top 16. Roark was also a thing for awhile, though that was more to combat the phantom. Biggs is absolutely still a part of the meta (though we know his ability is bonkers). But, it's true that support ships on small bases usually have a tough time but that's also because attacks have become much more accurate and powerful.

4 hours ago, Voitek said:

We are in a different camps on this one. IMHO "variation" is worthless if you are flying one type of ship all along. Same way you could say "hey, it's a variation to have triple jumpmasters, because one have intel agent, one have boba fett, and the third proton torps!". Makes is so much more intresting to meet those 3 DIFFERENT jumps, isnt it?

I'd rather play against parattani all day than to face ONE SINGLE SHIP TYPE every time I play against Imperials. From my perspective, it completely doesnt matter if thats Ryad or Vessery, PTL or juke. It's x7 every single time, its focus+evade+target Lock, it's the most boring gameplay of just running along the board edge and then turning around at some point.

While I understand your point, tweaks in a list can make it play very differently. At the same time, referencing the X7 in this context, which I also think suffers from design problems too, isn't very useful. I mean, a lot of people are frustrated and sick of seeing x7 defenders, too. It's just they haven't had the same success as the list being discussed in this thread, but there was a thread on them, too, as some point.

2 hours ago, Oldpara said:

It's true. All range restricted support ships are almost useless.

But to be honest not only because of range restriction, but also because they lack survivability. If HWK Jan Ors would have 9/10 hull/shields like Palpatine/Manaroo it would be playable even with range restriction. They just don't live long enough to be worth taking. The same goes for TIE shuttle. Dies to quickly for what he does.

Dies too quickly, or costs too much. I wouldn't have a problem with, say, Tactician Snap Shot Rhymer dying fast if he cost significantly less than 30+ points...

Same goes for Jan Ors - a conservative build of TLT, Nien Numb, Wired costs 33 points... Vectored Thrusters/EU to make use of that PS8 and dodge some arcs makes her ridiculously expensive, leaving little room for other stuff.

3 minutes ago, costi said:

Dies too quickly, or costs too much. I wouldn't have a problem with, say, Tactician Snap Shot Rhymer dying fast if he cost significantly less than 30+ points...

Same goes for Jan Ors - a conservative build of TLT, Nien Numb, Wired costs 33 points... Vectored Thrusters/EU to make use of that PS8 and dodge some arcs makes her ridiculously expensive, leaving little room for other stuff.

Imagine Kyle/Jan Ors would work with no range limitation (but each of them would be takig a point of stress if using special ability outside range 3). Can still be chased and killed easily, but at least would not die of a single torpedo in the second round of combat!

I'd love for there to be more ships running away and hiding in the corner, it's just what the game needs.

4 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

I'd love for there to be more ships running away and hiding in the corner, it's just what the game needs.

Surely Hawk is the best ship to run away with. Please, let me help you and show you how Hawk's dial looks like, in case you forgot.

It's small based as well which makes all those maneuvers much slower when compared to Lambda/Jumpmaster.

2 hours ago, Sciencius said:

It is certainly interesting how you go about "balancing" unbalanced game elements, or combination thereof that turns out to be to powerfull, WITHOUT ADJUSTING POINTS.

I cannot remember if it has been stated before, but you clearly get the idea that "Lats Razi" was designed particularly to counter stress-(ab)using-aces and zuckus-(ab)using-ships (Dengar). By itself it looked like the medicine to cure the meta at that point in time it was developmened.

And now the cure (in a nasty combi with other mechanisms) turns out to be one part of the disease.

I don't remember saying anything about how balancing should be done... tailoring point costs would be the best solution, but the most difficult to implement because of the way the game is packaged.

And yes, FFG development cycle is way too slow to react to changes. But I guess there's not much they can do about it, unless they ditch printed fixed and just stick to electronic errata.

@Voitek - I'm strongly against "across the table" abilities, because this creates the Manaroo situation, where the ship providing action economy sits safely away from the fight and trying to get it makes you vulnerable to the rest of the enemy list.

2 minutes ago, costi said:

I don't remember saying anything about how balancing should be done... tailoring point costs would be the best solution, but the most difficult to implement because of the way the game is packaged.

And yes, FFG development cycle is way too slow to react to changes. But I guess there's not much they can do about it, unless they ditch printed fixed and just stick to electronic errata.

@Voitek - I'm strongly against "across the table" abilities, because this creates the Manaroo situation, where the ship providing action economy sits safely away from the fight and trying to get it makes you vulnerable to the rest of the enemy list.

Manaroo and Palpatine are also in much more survivable platforms than most of the other support ships. Palp can even protect himself if the opponent is going for him.

The other ships just struggle to have good payloads and/or good survivability. At least lopping off the range would let the hwks stay out of danger, but keep in mind that often the best Manaroo play does not involve her hiding in a corner.

3 minutes ago, Panzeh said:

often the best Manaroo play does not involve her hiding in a corner.

Depends on the list you put her in. That is very true for Dengaroo, yet in Parattani the ability to keep manaroo in combat, block maneuvers, take R1 shots, close to the enemies but not letting your opponent focus on her properly is a key to success.

There was once a Dash / Jan Ors list that was smashing aside all takers. Dash was fully loaded, PtL, Kyle, Engine, Title, HLC, etc. and Jan Ors was given Predator, Rec Spec, Title, TLT.

The idea was that Dash was throwing a five dice, 360 targeting, range bonus denying, focus/target locked attack, mostly from range 3 after you were hit by a Predator enabled / focus tokened TLT attack, at range 3 every single turn.

At the time, it was lethal to pretty much anything but the limitation was Jan Ors, she took a stress for her ability and she also needed to be within range 3 of Dash by the end of the turn. Now if you removed that range band you would have two options:

1. Chase Dash through a massive asteroid field and get pummeled by five dice each and every turn he was alive and you were out of range 1.
2. Chase Jan Ors and get pummeled by five attack dice from Dash and a fully modified TLT shot every turn they were both alive.

Even then, the stress limits the abuse. Even if you swap out Rec Spec for Nien Numb and Engine, she is still quite predictable and easy to shoe horn into a kill box and even after all that, its a HWK. Manaroo, Mindlink and Palpatine have essentially better abilities, better rides and no drawbacks.

So here is a question for this community:

If Kyle Katarn's ability lost its range restriction (range 1 to 2 isn't it?) would it make him the auto include that Manaroo is?

I don't think it would. Rebels can't abuse it the same way and after all, its still on a HWK.

15 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

If Kyle Katarn's ability lost its range restriction (range 1 to 2 isn't it?) would it make him the auto include that Manaroo is?

I don't think it would. Rebels can't abuse it the same way and after all, its still on a HWK.

All Rebel HWKs are range 1-3. And I don't think they'd see play with no restrictions. Their payoff is just nowhere near as good as with the scum HWKs. I love the HWK. It is a fun ship to make work and the limited dial really forces you to plan ahead. But the Rebel versions I haven't touched in ages and probably won't ever.

14 minutes ago, Admiral Deathrain said:

All Rebel HWKs are range 1-3. And I don't think they'd see play with no restrictions. Their payoff is just nowhere near as good as with the scum HWKs. I love the HWK. It is a fun ship to make work and the limited dial really forces you to plan ahead. But the Rebel versions I haven't touched in ages and probably won't ever.

Rebel HWK's are also overcosted. Ie. Kyle 25 pts vs Palob 21 pts.

Just now, Oldpara said:

Rebel HWK's are also overcosted. Ie. Kyle 25 pts vs Palob 21 pts.

Kyle is 21, Palob is 20. Kyle seems okay for 21.

It's Jan ors who cost 25, but her ability is significantly better than any other Hawk, Rebel or Scum.

2 minutes ago, Voitek said:

Kyle is 21, Palob is 20. Kyle seems okay for 21.

It's Jan ors who cost 25, but her ability is significantly better than any other Hawk, Rebel or Scum.

Sorry, didn't checked it properly

36 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

If Kyle Katarn's ability lost its range restriction (range 1 to 2 isn't it?) would it make him the auto include that Manaroo is?

I don't think it would. Rebels can't abuse it the same way and after all, its still on a HWK.

Id rather have the dial upgrade to help it keep in line with the front line ships it wants to support.

5 minutes ago, Sk3tch said:

Id rather have the dial upgrade to help it keep in line with the front line ships it wants to support.

Yeah this official entry from wookiepedia never gets old:

Quote

Measuring twenty-nine meters in length (...) The ships were produced without armament; they used speed and maneuverability to escape most situations.

50 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

If Kyle Katarn's ability lost its range restriction (range 1 to 2 isn't it?) would it make him the auto include that Manaroo is?

I don't think it would. Rebels can't abuse it the same way and after all, its still on a HWK.

No, because as you say it's still on a HWK and as a platform it's hopelessly outclassed by the J5K. Half the problem with Manaroo is that she's got an amazing ability while still managing to fly around in an amazingly undercosted chassis

Look at the difference in base stats

• 1 red vs. 2 red
• In arc vs. PWT
• Same greens
• 4 hull vs. 5 hull
• 1 shield vs 4 shields
• No repositioning vs. large base barrel roll
• The dials... oh god the dials... one of the worst in game vs. one of the best in game
• Both have a crew and the HWK does have a turret slot which is nice but you still have to pay for it vs. 2 torps, an illicit, and an astromech
• In terms of abilities Kyle's (which is range 3 already) is inferior as it can't hand off either offensive of defensive target locks or multiple focus

And the price difference? 6pts... or the cost of a TLT which is a fairly mandatory upgrade to the HWK

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/the-state-of-game-part-ii-new-hope.html

Part: The Second

19 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/the-state-of-game-part-ii-new-hope.html

Part: The Second

Love everything except the rotation. That list of cards being rotated out makes the Rebel astromech slot next to useless. I mean what's left M9-G8? Same thing for the system slot. The remaining cards are generally just not worth their printed points and certainly don't make paying the premium for a ship with the slot an attractive option. Obviously that could be fixed by either reprints or new cards in later waves, but overall the approach seems a bit heavy handed.

I would much rather see a straight ban list for severely problematic cards and then maybe a reprint in a mechanically fixed form (looking at you Zuckuss) and points adjustments like you did for the rest. Those adjustments can be updated relatively quickly when compared to the wave release schedule and could be updated say twice a year on fixed dates.

Regarding extra munitions, that card is in a weird spot to me since it seems perfectly balanced when you're using it to say get one extra shot out of a 4-5 point ordnance on something that isn't a J5K. But too cheap when you're using it on loaded bomber Ks to get 3 extra drops. I know you didn't want to FAQ/errata things but wondering if the real fix for that card is to limit the number of tokens it gives out rather than a blanket price increase?

Regarding x7, again FAQ/errata, I would add a clause that prevented it getting the evade tokens if it overlaps a ship/obstacle or is stressed similar to the wording on the new Falcon title. That would add significance back into the planning phase, as you desire, by making blocks against Defenders more worthwhile. Whether that then makes the points adjustment still necessary or not I'm not sure.

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/the-state-of-game-part-ii-new-hope.html

Part: The Second

If you ask me, excluding cards that are definitely NOT the problem, just because of the rotation idea, is probably the worst meta-balancing idea I have ever heard of. It's like executing the entire family because one of them was accused of disorderly behaviour.

25 minutes ago, Voitek said:

If you ask me, excluding cards that are definitely NOT the problem, just because of the rotation idea, is probably the worst meta-balancing idea I have ever heard of. It's like executing the entire family because one of them was accused of disorderly behaviour.

It's worked very (very) well for Magic. I think the primary problem here is that it's only being proposed for certain aspects of the game. By it applying mostly to upgrades, broken uniques like Zuckuss or Manaroo aren't covered by it. So one of its best aspects, that of naturally getting rid of broken cards over time, isn't being applied evenly. Plus some some ships absolutely require certain upgrades that would be rotated out. Can you imagine Whisper without ACD or even Stygium?

I understand the motivation of the proposed rotation method, to preserve the presence of key characters but also because there's a (disturbingly) large attachment to the little bits of plastic that come with all of those cards in some people. But because of the problems above I think it's a potentially good solution that doesn't quite fit the reality of X Wing. If rotation does end up implemented I think it has to be a curated list rather than just based solely on wave.

24 minutes ago, Voitek said:

If you ask me, excluding cards that are definitely NOT the problem, just because of the rotation idea, is probably the worst meta-balancing idea I have ever heard of. It's like executing the entire family because one of them was accused of disorderly behaviour.

For players not used to the idea I'm sure it's quite jarring.

Rotation for waves 1-4 (in my example suggestion) was not aimed at any particular cards as you're suggesting, but at putting in place a system that would continue to change the game in future years and create new design opportunities in spaces that old cards were occupying.