We've been playing with a pretty casual player for a few months who pretty much never won. I suggested he try Paratanni and he barely lost a game for the next three weeks.

Whatever skill level you're at Paratanni will add to your win % because it's just better than anything else you could have used instead. You'll make mistakes and be bailed out by all the tokens and defensive abilities.

Will you win a tournament with it? Probably not, because it will only boost you so much. Will you finish higher than you ever finished before? Yeah, there's a very good chance you will.

2 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

We've been playing with a pretty casual player for a few months who pretty much never won. I suggested he try Paratanni and he barely lost a game for the next three weeks.

Whatever skill level you're at Paratanni will add to your win % because it's just better than anything else you could have used instead. You'll make mistakes and be bailed out by all the tokens and defensive abilities.

Will you win a tournament with it? Probably not, because it will only boost you so much. Will you finish higher than you ever finished before? Yeah, there's a very good chance you will.

Which of the above post is not valid for x7 Defenders for example?

Tournaments are won by lists with a high ceiling, what you are describing is a list with a high floor. The two, although they might appear in the same list aren't necessarily interconnected.

Yeah, I also think /x7 Defenders need to be dealt with as well.

8 minutes ago, Voitek said:

I respect and value Major juggler's analyses a lot, having some formal mathematics education as well as commerial experience building algorithms. Yet I remember his analyse of the classic Dengar build itself; in his "pure jousting value" analyse, in one of the scum&villainy podcast episodes (October/november?), Dengar alone was estimated to be worth 120-150 "jousting point". This did not even include his complete stress immunity, or I believe ability to Sloop while stresed as these are variables hard to calculate just using the numbers. Neither did it include 40-60 point jousting value of manaroo. Discrepancy? Change of method? As it is not explained, I am a bit suspicious about it now.

Now, if the 110-115 value is regarded to the "magic" calculation, it is based purely on the percentile calculation which bases on "how often was particular list played and scored in highest places" in various tournaments. This calculation is, in my personal opinion, omitting the most important factor: the player skill. I think the player skill is 70% of your success on a tournament. 20% is the list you are flying. 10% is pure luck. If parattani is 105 stronger than any other list, then you have no more than 2% advantage over a non-parattani player.

Now for all the x7 defender-spam players, please dont take it personally: I believe defenders spam or dengaroo are slightly easier lists to play, hence they are more often picked by average-skill players. I'm not saying great pilots arent flying it - that would be not true - I have lost so many games in my life to greatly skilled people flying with defenders. Yet I dare to say: because of slightly higher entry level, currently parattani is less popular among people who would most likely end up somewhere in the middle of the table. It will change as the list will become more and more popular. Rememeber it is only 2 and a half month old - and people on reddit are still asking "what is parattani". This clearly shows tournament veterans know it, but an average Xwing players still arent aware of it's potential. And might never really decide to use it knowing it is way less forgiving, to start with (one bad move and fenn is dead), while palpatine+3 shields on defenders can really help you smooth up any positioning mistake you can make, at least for a turn

I understand your points, but they are theory while we actually have other statistics to look at, too, like the fact that it has an incredibly high win rate for a list on listjuggler (around 70%) the last I checked. We also have one of the best players in the world, Morgan Reid, taking the "so-called"easier list of commonwealth defenders and getting beat by a paratanni player, who while I'm sure is still a good player doesn't have the same credentials.

http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2012-09-14&ranking_end=2017-02-23&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=&

Check out the green bar of the 'Magic' rating. That's how much better Paratanni is performing in real world situations THAN ANYTHING ELSE THAT'S EVER BEEN IN THE GAME.

You see what's in second place? Oh yeah, it's the list they had to nerf out of the game. Trying to defend Paratanni as a fair list is just... delusional.

1 minute ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

All good points, but my question for you is: Is it healthy for the game, in your opinion, when one list undeniably dominates the meta?

I'm sure all of your arguments around why Parattanni isn't "cancer" are well=thought out, but a list-type is actually cancerous when it spreads/pushes out all else uncontrollably - as Parattanni is doing right now.

I have played 11 games in Yavin Open. In the swiss, I was constantly playing on top tables - except for two first games, I was floating between 3rd and 17th position, and then one qarterfinal game. Looking at how apocalyptic picture we can see here and there, would I probably expect to play 7 out of 11 games against parattani? I played only two. Was I lucky to play only two? Maybe, maybe not. Did average player played 6 out of 8 or 7 our of 10 games against it? I really doubt that.

Yes, I would like the meta to be super versatile and to see every player play with something different. They don't, and I am a good example of that - I spent some time trying to find my perfect mindlink list, but then Maciej introduced parattani idea to me. I dont blame the list for being so good, it's all about the people. I am 33 years old, I have work, family, fellow bunch of boardgamer friends whom I try to meet every week. I just dont have time for experiments and researches as I had 15 years ago in WFB times. I am confident in my piloting skills though, so going for a large tournament, I want to take a great list, play it all over again, learn its weaknesess and strenghts, then try to achieve as much as I can. I dont enjoy list building that much, I enjoy attempting to squezze as much as I can from a list, once it is built.

IMHO parattani shouldnt be nerfed. This and palpatine are the two only proper support ships with large impact in the meta. I rather think FFG should buff other support ships: giving Jan ors/Kyle katarn no range limit, increasing Captain Jonax ability range 2/3. Every history period, fantasy setting included support pieces (Standard/eagle bearers in ancient times, command vehicles/crafts in modern/scifi warfare. healers/buffers in any fantasy settings). Why are we trying to rob X-wing of the two only viable support elements? (yes, I am defending palpatine here as well as "nerf palpatine!" shouts can be heard here and there a lot).

1 minute ago, Voitek said:

I have played 11 games in Yavin Open. In the swiss, I was constantly playing on top tables - except for two first games, I was floating between 3rd and 17th position, and then one qarterfinal game. Looking at how apocalyptic picture we can see here and there, would I probably expect to play 7 out of 11 games against parattani? I played only two. Was I lucky to play only two? Maybe, maybe not. Did average player played 6 out of 8 or 7 our of 10 games against it? I really doubt that.

Yes, I would like the meta to be super versatile and to see every player play with something different. They don't, and I am a good example of that - I spent some time trying to find my perfect mindlink list, but then Maciej introduced parattani idea to me. I dont blame the list for being so good, it's all about the people. I am 33 years old, I have work, family, fellow bunch of boardgamer friends whom I try to meet every week. I just dont have time for experiments and researches as I had 15 years ago in WFB times. I am confident in my piloting skills though, so going for a large tournament, I want to take a great list, play it all over again, learn its weaknesess and strenghts, then try to achieve as much as I can. I dont enjoy list building that much, I enjoy attempting to squezze as much as I can from a list, once it is built.

IMHO parattani shouldnt be nerfed. This and palpatine are the two only proper support ships with large impact in the meta. I rather think FFG should buff other support ships: giving Jan ors/Kyle katarn no range limit, increasing Captain Jonax ability range 2/3. Every history period, fantasy setting included support pieces (Standard/eagle bearers in ancient times, command vehicles/crafts in modern/scifi warfare. healers/buffers in any fantasy settings). Why are we trying to rob X-wing of the two only viable support elements? (yes, I am defending palpatine here as well as "nerf palpatine!" shouts can be heard here and there a lot).

i dig it. Glad you feel it's prevalence is an issue itself.

Side-note (and a bit of a dig): I, too, have plenty of obligations that refuse me time to experiment/play often, but I don't think that's valid in discussing how OP a list is.

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2012-09-14&ranking_end=2017-02-23&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=&

Check out the green bar of the 'Magic' rating. That's how much better Paratanni is performing in real world situations THAN ANYTHING ELSE THAT'S EVER BEEN IN THE GAME.

You see what's in second place? Oh yeah, it's the list they had to nerf out of the game. Trying to defend Paratanni as a fair list is just... delusional.

I have seen that. Did you go into the details? they are here: http://meta-wing.com/about?large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&ranking_start=2012-09-14&ranking_end=2017-02-23&tournament_type=&

The "Magic" parameter only shows how high the list scored, with no regards who played the list and what is the average score of those players in the previous tournaments (as there in functionality for thhat in the Juggler, obviously). I will say it again: it might as well mean bigger number of good players switched to parattani than to any other list.

On 2/20/2017 at 11:56 AM, NakedDex said:

I did. It's called TIE Bombers. Worked a treat the other day. Who'd have thought?

Me? I've been talking about Tie Bombers for a while, but haven't bothered with tournaments since they got all the fixes. Dengaroo really hurts Bombers by shucking the TL and getting a lot of effective evade dice, but I've been talking about 4 x Tie Bombers being effective for a while now. I say it's awesome that you have made it work. I've been wondering when someone will (since I choose not to try).

==========

Now, the question about the hate for the list? It's true that you might just have to wait to see if it happens, but I'm not sure if you will. Personally, I think this is a fantastic list and a great one for the game. There has been some power creep to the game and a bunch of super combos that really make things rather brutal to play against. Lots of people feel like the cards beat them rather than the player. I have heard lots of complains about how it matters less how you fly and more what cards you pick in a game. With this list, I don't think it's like that. There are only 6 upgrade cards and 3 named pilots. It's not that some super combo is bashing your face in as it is that it's just more efficient then your list.

• People hated U-boats b/c they blasted you in the first turn or two and you had almost no chance.
• People hated Palp and Soontir b/c you if you were skillful enough to get Soontir in arc, you just couldn't get your shots to count.
• People hate Commonwealth Defenders because with free Evade tokens and Palp, you can't get your shots to count.
• People hate Dengaroo b/c Manaroo hides all game and Dengar with so many re-rolls and crazy benefits evades lots of damage while smashing in your face.
• People hate Zuckuss b/c he negates your good green dice.
• People hated Fat Turrets because you never got a shot, but it killed you.

Paratanni doesn't negate anything. It doesn't take away your rolls. It doesn't get crazy re-rolls or dice modifications like Palp or Guidance Chips. It just uses Focus and TL, which have been around since Wave 1. The ships still get hit and still take damage and only use normal stuff to avoid damage. It doesn't dodge your arc like crazy and leave without a shot. It's just a solid list with action economy. You have to still fly it well.

A novice can't take Pratanni and just win major tournaments with it (at least as far as I know).

1 minute ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

I, too, have plenty of obligations that refuse me time to experiment/play often, but I don't think that's valid in discussing how OP a list is.

I am only pointing this as the reason why people like to play with "verified", strong lists. My point is: nerfng parattani would only mean people will switch for some other very strong list.

It's not the list fault: it's the human nature. Hence: buff other stuff, not nerf everything that is becoming a bit better than other stuff. And it's not even three months since parattani became really popular!

That's just fantasy thinking. If anything the anecdotal evidence of multiple regionals and Opens is that many of the 'best players' are precisely the ones NOT playing Paratanni because they're trying to find ways to beat it.

But ok, let's just stick with your hypothesis that Paratanni is the first ever time that the best players have tried to play the best list, which is warping how successful it is against all previous records of what was the best list at that time. Until now the best players were deliberately trying to handicap themselves, I guess.

Just now, Voitek said:

I am only pointing this as the reason why people like to play with "verified", strong lists. My point is: nerfng parattani would only mean people will switch for some other very strong list.

It's not the list fault: it's the human nature. Hence: buff other stuff, not nerf everything that is becoming a bit better than other stuff. And it's not even three months since parattani became really popular!

Agreed. There is ALWAYS going to be a most efficient list.

I will say, though, that in the time between the U-Boat nerf and Parattanni, the meta was so mixed. Rebels won some regionals (citation needed) and there was glorious diversity at the top tables. Those were a good few months.

Now it's Parattani. Everything. Everywhere. Awesome for the game, right?

2 minutes ago, Voitek said:

I am only pointing this as the reason why people like to play with "verified", strong lists. My point is: nerfng parattani would only mean people will switch for some other very strong list.

And the margin of advantage that list has over the average lists in the tournament will be significantly smaller. Smaller again if they also sort out /x7.

The playing field will be more level, the successful lists will be more varied.

1 minute ago, Stay On The Leader said:

That's just fantasy thinking. If anything the anecdotal evidence of multiple regionals and Opens is that many of the 'best players' are precisely the ones NOT playing Paratanni because they're trying to find ways to beat it.

But ok, let's just stick with your hypothesis that Paratanni is the first ever time that the best players have tried to play the best list, which is warping how successful it is against all previous records of what was the best list at that time. Until now the best players were deliberately trying to handicap themselves, I guess.

Before that we did not have the "Magic" calculator showing us how OP uboots, dengaroo, and palp defenders were. And I have seen very many regionals won with defenders during the last 6-8 months. And we dont know what was the Magic score for them.

Just saying. Cal Jones came second in Yavin with his quite unusal Kannan+Ashoka build. He could have totally win the game as well, there was just one unlucky call of going left instead of right. It'd funny hoe innovative rebel list is being played to a great success, yet imperial players still play with the same ships all over again but complain about not a single imperial making it to top8 (this is not personal - just a general observation).

4 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

And the margin of advantage that list has over the average lists in the tournament will be significantly smaller. Smaller again if they also sort out /x7.

The playing field will be more level, the successful lists will be more varied.

i believe this should be reached with buffing, not nerfing.

14 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2012-09-14&ranking_end=2017-02-23&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=&

Check out the green bar of the 'Magic' rating. That's how much better Paratanni is performing in real world situations THAN ANYTHING ELSE THAT'S EVER BEEN IN THE GAME.

You see what's in second place? Oh yeah, it's the list they had to nerf out of the game. Trying to defend Paratanni as a fair list is just... delusional.

If people are calling any of the top lists fair, they're delusional. The competitiveness of a list is probably determined by how far from fair it is.

Just now, Voitek said:

i believe this should be reached with buffing, not nerfing.

Yeah, I think of instead of seeing Manaroo and Palp and thinking "those are bad" I look at Kyle, Jan, Lando(pilot), etc. and think "Why can't they be like this."

Just now, AceWing said:

If people are calling any of the top lists fair, they're delusional. The competitiveness of a list is probably determined by how far from fair it is.

I think that's an uncomfortable truth that I don't think has always been true, and one I would hope we can change.

Just now, Stay On The Leader said:

I think that's an uncomfortable truth that I don't think has always been true, and one I would hope we can change.

Its true in every competitive game I've ever played. I have no problem with the power level of the game dropping but I think people often misappropriate the initial catalyst for all of this power creep. It's easily Emperor Palpatine, not Attani Mindlink.

The reason we have auto-damage scum is because Palpatine made it very difficult to touch imperial ships. The reason we have such action efficient lists, like Parattani, is because there had to be a natural competitor with Palpatine. Palpatine makes hard-to-hit ships extremely-hard-to-hit ships and he makes ships that deal a lot of damage ships that deal even more consistent and powerful damage.

If you want to lower the power curve it starts with Palpatine. He's the standard the whole game revolves around. Then you can increase the cost of Mindlink and take other metagame correcting actions. If you leave the root problem, there will always be the push to have more powerful effects to be on par with Palpatine. If you think about it, x7 isn't that bad. There's actually many ways to combat Defenders. It's not worth it when, despite all your efforts, they'll just tack on another hit or evade with Palpatine. Even Omega Leader doesn't stop you from altering your dice with Palpatine as long as your modifying another ship's dice.

32 minutes ago, Voitek said:

i believe this should be reached with buffing, not nerfing.

While I used to agree with you, I just don't think that's viable over time and we see some problems with it ( or at least the way it has been done). A weakness has to be recognized, an idea needs to be developed to counter it, that idea needs to be playtested, and then it takes another six months from that point to get out (the defender title was over two years in coming). By the time it comes out, sometimes it's missed the mark (I think this is true of integrated astromech and the Tie Advanced Title -- or if they had an effect than it wasn't lasting). They've also overshot a bit in some cases (X7?). Then there's the placement of these upgrades, in some cases packaged as part of another $100 ship (and unsupported game mode).

I think a combination of both is necessary in order to make it so they don't have to keep repeatedly "buffing" things and so that they can also more quickly react as well as keep changes to as few as possible. If Paratanni, for example, maintains it's current strength, that would require new cards and upgrades for every other ship in the game.

4 minutes ago, AceWing said:

I have no problem with the power level of the game dropping but I think people often misappropriate the initial catalyst for all of this power creep. It's easily Emperor Palpatine, not Attani Mindlink.

I'd say that's true. I mark Imperial Raider as the point where it all started to go wrong and the game has been slipping out of control ever since. It definitely wasn't Mindlink that started anything because we had 8 or 9 months of a pretty unpleasant ramping up power level through 2016 before Mindlink really started to make waves.

I think it's @Verlaine who's made this point before, but there's actually relatively few expansions/upgrades to blame and most of it is down to the Punishing One expansion. Between that expansion and the /x7 title an awful lot of damage was done in very little time. Palpatine and Zuckuss would be my next tier of problems, and as Zuckuss has mostly been a problem in conjuction with things from the Punishing One expansion I'm not even sure he's not just a corollary of mistakes made there.

38 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Agreed. There is ALWAYS going to be a most efficient list.

I will say, though, that in the time between the U-Boat nerf and Parattanni, the meta was so mixed. Rebels won some regionals (citation needed) and there was glorious diversity at the top tables. Those were a good few months.

Now it's Parattani. Everything. Everywhere. Awesome for the game, right?

Isn't this the cycle that follows after every major meta change (new power ship/card, rule change etc.)? For a bit stuff seems varied as people adjust to the new meta, then the pieces fall into place, people understand what works and what doesn't and the new best things settle at the top.

Its fine guys, the nerf will come in a different way, a subtle way, a way of FAQ and it will read:

"When you are stressed, you may not perform actions, be assigned focus or evade tokens or reveal red moves"

The world will erupt into flames, Soontir will don his flight suit once more and there will more threads, declaring another list needs nerfing.

4 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Isn't this the cycle that follows after every major meta change (new power ship/card, rule change etc.)? For a bit stuff seems varied as people adjust to the new meta, then the pieces fall into place, people understand what works and what doesn't and the new best things settle at the top.

Yeah, you'll always expect to see some consolidation happening. What appears to be happening more now than on previous occasions is that the margin of advantage over the mean is larger than usual, the spread of those top lists appears to be a little wider than usual (perhaps because the margin of advantage is larger), and that it appears to be happening over a period of a new wave being released and incorporated, so we're seeing consolidation at a point where there should be increased flux.

5 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Yeah, you'll always expect to see some consolidation happening. What appears to be happening more now than on previous occasions is that the margin of advantage over the mean is larger than usual, the spread of those top lists appears to be a little wider than usual (perhaps because the margin of advantage is larger), and that it appears to be happening over a period of a new wave being released and incorporated, so we're seeing consolidation at a point where there should be increased flux.

To be fair, nothing was released in the last wave that would displace a tanky top tier like we have right now. It doesn't matter if Kylo can Blinded Pilot you and deal damage through shields if your attack has to get through impenetrable defenses. Although, Carnor Jax might be the new Soontir Fel. That guy's really good right now. Carnor plus Kylo sounds really good.