9 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I am noting it does take a lot more work to make this go off. Here's a weird comparison: If you took Rieekan and got DTTs would you do pretty much just as well? Although, I think you'd take CR90B with SW-whatevers instead of naked CR-As.

I love your use of strategic though. How much does it pay off?

Also your list does not care about firs tor second much, but in our meta, its an auto lose in many cases to not have choice of initiative in terms of being lost in objective choices. I guess this list really doesn't care. AA, 6 ships, no real need to be first.

I've actually never played Rieekan. Ever. So I don't know hahaha. I know how to deal with him though. Someone else had mentioned using CR90A with Dodonna's Pride to deal face ups all day with Sato.

To date, I've only played Targetting Beacons and Salvage Run, or I'm first player doing some other objective. Targetting Beacons does wonders. Even using it to kill 1 ship very fast is worth it IMO. Salvage Run is a bit harder to grab all the tokens, especially if your opponent has 1. It kind of sucks, but you will end up 40 points a head, which is why Intel Sweep is better. Besides playing my own objectives, it works well for my opponent when they have token based objectives too. The only thing that really sucks is getting engaged too early, or whiffing on the 1 more damage needed to break engagement. And speed 3 hurts a bit because your reach isn't as long. Over all though, I love what Strategic has done for the game.

I've debated if I should play the initiative game, but I've found it doesn't really matter. If my opponent bids hard, I already have an advantage in points, and then they get to play my objectives. Or they go second and I get to pick from them, and with 2 VCX, I have an advantage there as well. AG is always good for me too since Paragon enjoys it. I haven't really played a game where I wished I could choose which player I wanted to be, and this is the second list I've made and played since release of wave 5. I've been stuck on Sato for many, many weeks.

The list isn't perfect, and killing the VCXs will stop most of the synergy between Relay, Sato and the objectives. Even losing 1 hampers your ability to play effectively. I'm not sure how ready this list is for tournaments. Mass squads is a hard counter to this list, but moving at speed 3 helps.

This is my favorite list I've played since I started Armada. It feels very thematic, with a lot of moving parts and the huge risk/reward for playing the list properly. The games always look good when I have my ships running in all sorts of directions being supported by the squads as they try to engage bombers and get close to enemy ships. There has never been a game where I felt like the match was boring.

What about an AF-A Paragon with whatever upgrades you want, but keep it lean (ex: Spinal Armament/DTT, Intel, and maybe ECM) in a Madine fleet with a MC80 BC/SC? I was testing in a fleet builder what I could come up with and you could have those two with a GR75 w/ Comms and a CR90 of some type with about 70 pts of squadrons left over (likely a combination of AWings). I'd figure Madine would help the AF-A to maneuver in more favorable positions to make better usage of Paragon and the MC80 BC/SC already likes being in a Madine list anyway and can help force your opponent to make a more difficult decision on what to do after first.

24 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

I've actually never played Rieekan. Ever. So I don't know hahaha. I know how to deal with him though. Someone else had mentioned using CR90A with Dodonna's Pride to deal face ups all day with Sato.

To date, I've only played Targetting Beacons and Salvage Run, or I'm first player doing some other objective. Targetting Beacons does wonders. Even using it to kill 1 ship very fast is worth it IMO. Salvage Run is a bit harder to grab all the tokens, especially if your opponent has 1. It kind of sucks, but you will end up 40 points a head, which is why Intel Sweep is better. Besides playing my own objectives, it works well for my opponent when they have token based objectives too. The only thing that really sucks is getting engaged too early, or whiffing on the 1 more damage needed to break engagement. And speed 3 hurts a bit because your reach isn't as long. Over all though, I love what Strategic has done for the game.

I've debated if I should play the initiative game, but I've found it doesn't really matter. If my opponent bids hard, I already have an advantage in points, and then they get to play my objectives. Or they go second and I get to pick from them, and with 2 VCX, I have an advantage there as well. AG is always good for me too since Paragon enjoys it. I haven't really played a game where I wished I could choose which player I wanted to be, and this is the second list I've made and played since release of wave 5. I've been stuck on Sato for many, many weeks.

The list isn't perfect, and killing the VCXs will stop most of the synergy between Relay, Sato and the objectives. Even losing 1 hampers your ability to play effectively. I'm not sure how ready this list is for tournaments. Mass squads is a hard counter to this list, but moving at speed 3 helps.

This is my favorite list I've played since I started Armada. It feels very thematic, with a lot of moving parts and the huge risk/reward for playing the list properly. The games always look good when I have my ships running in all sorts of directions being supported by the squads as they try to engage bombers and get close to enemy ships. There has never been a game where I felt like the match was boring.

I'm very sad to hear mass squads is a counter to this list. I was hoping with the AA and squads it has, it could go toe to toe. What happened?

Yeah, I usually don't have the money to afford VCXs in my lists. They are a hefty cost, and I do feel you need 2 for strategic. Do you feel this way?

39 minutes ago, RStan said:

What about an AF-A Paragon with whatever upgrades you want, but keep it lean (ex: Spinal Armament/DTT, Intel, and maybe ECM) in a Madine fleet with a MC80 BC/SC? I was testing in a fleet builder what I could come up with and you could have those two with a GR75 w/ Comms and a CR90 of some type with about 70 pts of squadrons left over (likely a combination of AWings). I'd figure Madine would help the AF-A to maneuver in more favorable positions to make better usage of Paragon and the MC80 BC/SC already likes being in a Madine list anyway and can help force your opponent to make a more difficult decision on what to do after first.

Where I've run an admonition in my madine list, there is probably some way to rework the points to get an af-a with paragon in there. Whether it would work as well is another question entirely, but it's possible. For a different play style, maybe Garm or even Dodonna would free upgrade points. I might give it a whirl tonight and see what happens.

Is Madine ever useful for AFs? I did a crazy thing where I used AF-As with Spinals on, you throw the same 1blue 3 red from every side. But found it wasn't worth the cost.

22 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I'm very sad to hear mass squads is a counter to this list. I was hoping with the AA and squads it has, it could go toe to toe. What happened?

Yeah, I usually don't have the money to afford VCXs in my lists. They are a hefty cost, and I do feel you need 2 for strategic. Do you feel this way?

Howlrunner, Saber, and Tie/I are too much for this list in an alpha strike. Saber can one shot an A-Wing, the Ties can burn down the VCXs, and Tycho and Shara can get 1 shot if FC is in the list too. Plus, 5 blue dice and a reroll will mean Scatter is almost 100% going to get targetted, which means you take 2 damage after brace. Defenders can do the same, but with shear damage. Rieekan aces, YT-2400 spam, Yavaris, and Flechette Raiders can bring the list down too. Obviously you can counter that by holding off engagement, but if you are forced into 1st player, it might be hard to do that.

I do think 2 VCXs is needed to play Strategic. I don't think you would want to use just 1 because you should try to maximize Relay as well. You can do a weird combo where you activate 1 Relay on the other side of the map and the rest near you, but I always find having a large group of fighters is better for an alpha strike. I think Strategic is hard to play with for Rebels. Since it has Heavy, you are going to be engaged fairly easily, so you want to bring Intel. Well, then you need to bring Escorts for the Intel, and maybe you want to keep those Escorts alive longer to you take Biggs or Jan. The points add up very quickly. And speed 3 means quicker things can jump on it, limiting the amount of Strategic you can utilize. I tend to run 2 balls of fighters that can Relay to each other, but can't be engaged at the same time. This allows me some freedom to move around and may split my enemy.

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Howlrunner, Saber, and Tie/I are too much for this list in an alpha strike. Saber can one shot an A-Wing, the Ties can burn down the VCXs, and Tycho and Shara can get 1 shot if FC is in the list too. Plus, 5 blue dice and a reroll will mean Scatter is almost 100% going to get targetted, which means you take 2 damage after brace. Defenders can do the same, but with shear damage. Rieekan aces, YT-2400 spam, Yavaris, and Flechette Raiders can bring the list down too. Obviously you can counter that by holding off engagement, but if you are forced into 1st player, it might be hard to do that.

I do think 2 VCXs is needed to play Strategic. I don't think you would want to use just 1 because you should try to maximize Relay as well. You can do a weird combo where you activate 1 Relay on the other side of the map and the rest near you, but I always find having a large group of fighters is better for an alpha strike. I think Strategic is hard to play with for Rebels. Since it has Heavy, you are going to be engaged fairly easily, so you want to bring Intel. Well, then you need to bring Escorts for the Intel, and maybe you want to keep those Escorts alive longer to you take Biggs or Jan. The points add up very quickly. And speed 3 means quicker things can jump on it, limiting the amount of Strategic you can utilize. I tend to run 2 balls of fighters that can Relay to each other, but can't be engaged at the same time. This allows me some freedom to move around and may split my enemy.

That makes me sad to hear. Though I was expecting more of a problem of generalist squad balls, like Rebel BWing Yavaris balls.

2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

That makes me sad to hear. Though I was expecting more of a problem of generalist squad balls, like Rebel BWing Yavaris balls.

I don't think this list can beat that Rieekan nonsense you face. It's not built for that. You could drop an A-Wing for a bid and that would help, but still. A-Wings die pretty quickly, and the ships only toss 1 blue die against squads. You would have to roll amazing to kill the carriers and not get killed by the bombers in the process. You can try it, but I got wrecked by that simple Howlrunner Tie/I ball in 2 turns. I did play poorly, but given my play style and my opponents, I know he would never engage me in open combat unless he can get an alpha.

I think there is a rebel admiral that adds a couple of red dice to the side batteries. Slap on dtt and you're good to go. Gunnery teams to taste.

2 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

I think there is a rebel admiral that adds a couple of red dice to the side batteries. Slap on dtt and you're good to go. Gunnery teams to taste.

Was his name Raddish? =]

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Is Madine ever useful for AFs? I did a crazy thing where I used AF-As with Spinals on, you throw the same 1blue 3 red from every side. But found it wasn't worth the cost.

I don't know. Only way to find out is to put it on the table and see what happens. I don't always need the most competitive list. I need lists that help me learn about the Game and try ideas. I still think Garm is a better af2 fit, maybe the best. That's the cheapest 3 command, and then it really wants to be flown at red range and most of flying Garm well is making turn 5 so you can get the tokens again.

18 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

I don't know. Only way to find out is to put it on the table and see what happens. I don't always need the most competitive list. I need lists that help me learn about the Game and try ideas. I still think Garm is a better af2 fit, maybe the best. That's the cheapest 3 command, and then it really wants to be flown at red range and most of flying Garm well is making turn 5 so you can get the tokens again.

Garm is good, just... really boring haha.

Blail.

Unreliable and cheap. The pelta.

Slightly better. Scout frigate.

Hmmm cr90a DPride. Now there is an idea.

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

Hmmm cr90a DPride. Now there is an idea.

Toryn and CF+token to make sure you get the crit. Double arc to hopefully get another crit off.

You can still achieve an MSU list with enough squads to satisfy Sato while packing a heavy hitting MC80 assault cruiser.

Add defiance and Xi7s.

Man does that thing hit like a truck.. and at long range I might add.

4 hours ago, RStan said:

What about an AF-A Paragon with whatever upgrades you want, but keep it lean (ex: Spinal Armament/DTT, Intel, and maybe ECM) in a Madine fleet with a MC80 BC/SC? I was testing in a fleet builder what I could come up with and you could have those two with a GR75 w/ Comms and a CR90 of some type with about 70 pts of squadrons left over (likely a combination of AWings). I'd figure Madine would help the AF-A to maneuver in more favorable positions to make better usage of Paragon and the MC80 BC/SC already likes being in a Madine list anyway and can help force your opponent to make a more difficult decision on what to do after first.

Use the AF to screen the most vulnerable flank of that Liberty. Let the Liberty do opening salvos and let the AF try to mop-up.