So in the midst of all the new waves, i felt the previous rebel star of wave 1 has been diminishing in terms of relative reliable firepower. It has a blue die but lacks the slot for leading shots that both mc80s can slap on. Arkittens also have 3 red broadsides but are cheaper.

So I've been looking at this combo for a reliable sniping af. Been around before but not very discussed I think. Core is Sato and ordnance experts. Roll all them blacks Rest season to taste

Assault firefly: (like a sherman with 17p)

-H9 or DTT(get that acc on that red or reroll)

-ECM

-OE

-raymus or weapons liaison(get that extra black)

-Paragon

-sato chilling somewhere

Any other ideas to make af dangerous? They are durable on their own atm imo, but not as potent as other options.

I currently run a dual AF Sato list with 2 CR90s and 2 GR-75s, 2 A-Wings, 2 VCX and Tycho n Shara. I tried the heavy build you have here and did not like it. Too many points sunk into one ship, and it's pretty easy to dodge an AF double arc.

My first AF build had Paragon, H9, and OE so I could kill flotillas. Grab a squad token first round so you can paint your target when you need to. I find SFO more valuable than Raymus because I'd rather have a Nav than a CF in nearly every situation, because Paragon essentially acts like a CF when I get in position. You really need activation advantage and initiative to get Paragon working the best IMO.

I really think Sato is an MSU commander so you can roll as many black dice as possible, instead of the most modified dice on a single ship, which is why I also have 2 CR90s with no upgrades. 1 command means I can get a CF when I need it, and I can double arc pretty well, so that's 4 black dice, and 8 from both if I set it up well. With the VCXs, I also take Targetting Beacons so I can paint my target twice, once with a squad for Sato and again with the beacon to get max rerolls. Sato90s are surprisingly effective at killing things at long range. GR-75s let me push squad commands via the VCXs and suck up 2 activations and 2 deployments. Both AF have SFO and OE, and one has Paragon. The list comes in at a hefty 400 points, but Targetting Beacons, Fire Lanes and Salvage Run means my opponent has a very tough choice in which objective to pick, and they will likely take initiative against Paragon. It hurts a bit, but 2 VCXs means I can move a lot of tokens around.

In regards to AFs, they are pretty strong if you can keep them at long range. IO and an Acc will hurt, since you will lose the Evade and Brace most likely, but they have some hefty shields. I don't think they need ECM if they stay at long range, or medium in the non-major arcs of other ships. The issue I face with AFs, is not losing them but losing the supporting squads. If you can't Sato on your attack, H9 and OE are useless and chances are you will lose the game because you can't put out enough damage. It's cliche, but I really think the best defense for AF is having an overly powerful offense, so keeps those squads alive and play aggressive. Speed 3 will save AFs from getting boxed in and gives you massive room to play with.

Assault Frigate B - 72pts

Arquitten Light Cruiser - 54pts

What are we paying 18pts for?

Hull, Manouverability, Brace, Front arc red, Shields, Engineering 4 and Squadron 3.

You have to be utilising either the engineering or squadron value for the assault frigate to be worthwhile. DTT certainly helps.

44 minutes ago, Muelmuel said:

So in the midst of all the new waves, i felt the previous rebel star of wave 1 has been diminishing in terms of relative reliable firepower. It has a blue die but lacks the slot for leading shots that both mc80s can slap on. Arkittens also have 3 red broadsides but are cheaper.

So I've been looking at this combo for a reliable sniping af. Been around before but not very discussed I think. Core is Sato and ordnance experts. Roll all them blacks Rest season to taste

Assault firefly: (like a sherman with 17p)

-H9 or DTT(get that acc on that red or reroll)

-ECM

-OE

-raymus or weapons liaison(get that extra black)

-Paragon

-sato chilling somewhere

Any other ideas to make af dangerous? They are durable on their own atm imo, but not as potent as other options.

Add Gunnery teams and do it twice.

7 minutes ago, Mad Cat said:

Add Gunnery teams and do it twice.

Em, OE and gun teams use the same weapons team slot. I understand if i use OE im missing out on gun teams, but i was looking for reliable firepower over 2 shots of fickle red dice. Would be awesome if they didn't clash though

Had to do a double take! Two different worlds colliding..... I wonder how may people dont get the reference?

In that case let add Schurzen on the side of the AFK for 1 more hull point? Does this mean the Imperial player can make a Stormtrooper move? Oh No!

4 minutes ago, Muelmuel said:

Em, OE and gun teams use the same weapons team slot. I understand if i use OE im missing out on gun teams, but i was looking for reliable firepower over 2 shots of fickle red dice. Would be awesome if they didn't clash though

Yes and on Paragon obviously the rewards for double arcing are greater. But I do like gunnery teams and in certain circumstances getting multiple AFIIs to overlap their arcs and shoot 2 targets each is very rewarding. But if you like this then probably Ackbar is better for only 6 more points than Sato.

7 minutes ago, Muelmuel said:

Em, OE and gun teams use the same weapons team slot. I understand if i use OE im missing out on gun teams, but i was looking for reliable firepower over 2 shots of fickle red dice. Would be awesome if they didn't clash though

On the topic of Paragon, that's a ship that also needs to have some interplay with your objectives if you take it.

In the last list I ran Paragon in, I was running both Advanced Gunnery and Hyperspace Assault, and Paragon was built to be the ship for either of those objectives. Also, people are crazy enough to occasionally pick Advanced Gunnery and think it won't be such a big deal with Paragon.

7 minutes ago, Reinholt said:

On the topic of Paragon, that's a ship that also needs to have some interplay with your objectives if you take it.

In the last list I ran Paragon in, I was running both Advanced Gunnery and Hyperspace Assault, and Paragon was built to be the ship for either of those objectives. Also, people are crazy enough to occasionally pick Advanced Gunnery and think it won't be such a big deal with Paragon.

Full agree with this. With my Sato list, I'll pick AG all day for Paragon. Sure, I need to pick 2 different arcs on you, but that's not hard to do with the massive side arcs AF have. And that adds up to 5 black, 2 red and 2 blue. 6 Black with CF and that damage stacks quickly.

I always worry to put AG in my list because I don't want to run into the pickle of doom who one shots my ships every turn.

TBH assault frigates don't need much to punch above their weight...if anything you should be looking at the fleet overall and not just a single ship. The great players tell me it's about how a ship works within a fleet, not the other way around.

My CC list with Sato went undefeated against some good players, and most of the time all I had was OE and DTT...frankly DTT is the way to go as it increases your odds of a better hit...and for five points...cmon!

If Sato:

Assault Frigate B = Intel Officer, Ordnance Experts, DTT

At least two of these.

The Sato AF I put together looks like this:

Assault Frigate Mk.II A

Intel officer

Ordinance Experts

ECM

Spinal Armament

Paragon

113pts.

5 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

snip

Can you post your list? It sounds fun.

Continuing discussion -

Is Sato really worth his value? Do those blacks actually increase your damage potential? Especially on naked ships without things like OE?

Is the Assault Frigate doomed from too narrow roles? (And too narrow front arcs?) It seems like it was a blast with Ackbar, but trying to double arc with the ship seems quite hard. How do you tend to fly it to get double arcs? Do you have problems getting straight up rammed from the front?

Does the AF hit hard enough on its own anyway?
It seems like its problem, is mostly getting the offensive firepower to justify their costs. When Ackbar and Sato require so much fighter investment, you're looking at only 266 points of ships... with 40 of them being flotillas, and requiring a LARGE amount of upgrades, with /SatoAkbar also counting for 32. WOW: You only have 200 points of ships. Thats literally only 2 AFs. 4 activation.. Thats no go.

That's my current problem with also how many points you need to play squadrons: On a low requirement, I'd take 80-90. Which only frees up 40 points. Not even enough for a TRC CR90 there.

--

While they're still good for certain things, it seems like the AF has a lot less easy maneuvering matching with current fleets. Ackbar Gunnery Team style play was very effective movement for them.

As a carrier, its pretty good, but very expensive, and its a clumsy ship to move directionally forward like a carrier. Flight Controllers.

Gallant Haven imo, I still have no idea how that works, it seems like its too hard to keep inside the distance. Especially with the clumsiness of the AF's movement.

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

If Sato:

Assault Frigate B = Intel Officer, Ordnance Experts, DTT

At least two of these.

Pretty much....

You can toss in some blast doors for the lolz...

5 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

I currently run a dual AF Sato list with 2 CR90s....

I really think Sato is an MSU commander so you can roll as many black dice as possible, instead of the most modified dice on a single ship, which is why I also have 2 CR90s with no upgrades. 1 command means I can get a CF when I need it, and I can double arc pretty well, so that's 4 black dice, and 8 from both if I set it up well. With the VCXs, I also take Targetting Beacons so I can paint my target twice, once with a squad for Sato and again with the beacon to get max rerolls. Sato90s are surprisingly effective at killing things at long range. GR-75s let me push squad commands via the VCXs and suck up 2 activations and 2 deployments. Both AF have SFO and OE, and one has Paragon. The list comes in at a hefty 400 points, but Targetting Beacons, Fire Lanes and Salvage Run means my opponent has a very tough choice in which objective to pick, and they will likely take initiative against Paragon. It hurts a bit, but 2 VCXs means I can move a lot of tokens around.

How are you finding CR90s with him? I want to like them, but I feel that the black dice aren't as good as TRCs in similar circumstances. Or is it the fact that you're double arcing with 2 of them, and that they're so cheap, being 88 points to throw 8 black dice at a target?

22 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Is Sato really worth his value? Do those blacks actually increase your damage potential? Especially on naked ships without things like OE?

Only addressing this point:

JJust Raw damage averages...

The Average Damage potential of a Red Die is 0.75. An Assault Frigate, at Long Range, firing just the Side arc, has a Damage Average, of 2.25 at that point.

The Average Damage of a Black Die is 1.0. An Assault Frigate, with Sato Black, at Long range, Firing just the Side arc, has a Damage Average of 2.75

However, as well, as a comparison to Ackbar:

The average Damage potential of a Red die is 0.75. An Ackbar Assault Frigate, at long Range, With an Ackbar side arc, has a Damage Average of 3.75.

To answer the question "Do those blacks really increase your damage potential?" - The answer is, On Average, Yes. But not by as much as Ackbar would.

And of course, this is just raw damage output, and doesn't account for things like Brace-Blocking Accuracy and somewhat. Which are also in Ackbar's favour.

So over Raw, Yes.

Over Ackbar, No. But he's also a little cheaper than Ackbar, and can improve more than just a side arc - at the cost of Squadron Positioning.

And of course, the single biggest point in the favour for Ackbar is those "other" results such as Accuracies.
The single biggest point in favour for Sato is Ordnance Experts giving them super-reliability.

Lest we forget here that ackbar forces you to fire from your sides only...and you can actually dual arc with paragon at long range throwing blacks...which is what I've done many a time.

even more so...when you toss a pair of blacks out the side of a Nebulon B.

I have been toying with using Sato, GT's and Spinal Armaments. It's a solid 3 dice from all 4 arcs and it allows for a much more variable and flexible role for the AF. If you are willing to add RBD's it's also a tough nut to crack open. The GT's are deployed to maximize both anti-ship, but also anti-squadron capabilities

3 of these still leaves room for useful squads. (The RBD's would replace the Z95's and add Paragon title)

Sato's AFs
Author: Englishpete

Faction: Rebel Alliance
Points: 388/400

Commander: Commander Sato

Assault Objective: Blockade Run
Defense Objective: Planetary Ion Cannon
Navigation Objective: Minefields

[ flagship ] Assault Frigate Mark II A (81 points)
- Commander Sato ( 32 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
= 129 total ship cost

Assault Frigate Mark II A (81 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
= 97 total ship cost

Assault Frigate Mark II A (81 points)
- Gunnery Team ( 7 points)
- Spinal Armament ( 9 points)
= 97 total ship cost

1 Tycho Celchu ( 16 points)
1 Shara Bey ( 17 points)
3 Z-95 Headhunter Squadrons ( 21 points)
1 A-Wing Squadron ( 11 points)

31 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Snip

Good analysis.

However, I'd also argue opportunity cost here is not insignificant. Ackbar does yield a high level of damage output, esp in terms of sheer power. One reason why MC80 Ackbars are one-shot-deadly. AFs with Ackbar are usually two shot deadly.

Also, to compare, Rieekan can usually offer you 2 or more extra attacks you wouldn't otherwise get, while also making zombie ships annoying and in the way, and further messing with your opponents attack focusing plan, which is a really good deal for 30 points.

Does Sato really give you enough firepower to be similarly efficient?

Second, due to the setup nature, I believe you kind of need AA fighters or suicidal intel bombers to get Sato to work. Which I build creation seems to limit the extra leeway you have to ensure a battle plan. This though is all theoretical. I've had one game with Sato, where I rerolled blank blacks into blanks. Which, I know is statically abysmal. But upon further investigation just rolling dice in vacuum, I found Sato's firepower increase to be underwhelming. Especially since the ships were very expensive, and adding upgrades to benefit form those black dice costed more money.

--

There's a post about naked CR90s with Sato, but does that give enough firepower? No rerolling?

AFs are costly. You're likely only able to fit 2 + 2 transports (thats only 4 activations too) plus 90 pts of squadrons, and that's assuming you can force specialization and don't get pulled into a trap of mediocrity doing both roles. At which point you're going 134 squadrons and 30 points of upgrades to increase that efficiency.

In this case, this is why I think the Strategic list is so interesting.

As Always, Leverage, Leverage, Leverage.

Does Sato do much for Assault Frigates? No.

Does Sato do much for a Nebulon-B with the Salvation title? Yes. Yes indeed.

But in the same way, Does Ackbar do much for a Nebulon-B? No. No he does not.

Part of the Opportunity cost, is, of course, tailoring the list for your Needs and your Admiral. Which is why I find them very hard to directly compare.

Personally, I like Sato with the MC30... Yes, the Long Range Damage output vs Ackbar isn't as significant, but the sheer potential of resolving APT/ACM Critical Hits at Long Range is suitably nice.

Slightly of ropic.

Sato

Intel officer removing evades

APTs

Adar Tallon and Luke.

Shields? What shields!

(Follow up with cr90bs with engine techs....)

8 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Slightly of ropic.

Sato

Intel officer removing evades

APTs

Adar Tallon and Luke.

Shields? What shields!

(Follow up with cr90bs with engine techs....)

What ship would this be?

--

Of course Sato is good on Salvation, but dang, you can only even get like 3 nebulons too. If even 3 nebs. I think I was highly unsatisfied with the ship firepower I got from it. Like Salvation (good), Yavaris (bad), extra Escort Neb (ok). That's only only 3 ships of meh firepower combined. Yavaris is great, might as well just go straight to rieekan and bombing damage though.

(This is going to go wayyy off topic, but I swear I try I won't. Just making a question of Sato's real value after opportunity cost and after extra required squadrons and ships and ship upgrades.).

Like really though. 3 nebs? That's all I get for Sato. As opposed to just blasting reds directly and rieekan-ing bombers. Which.. is pretty good. A very dual threat list with a lot more utility.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Can you post your list? It sounds fun.

This is all from memory so I don't know all the points costs.

Targetting Beacons
Fire Lanes
Salvage Run

AF B: Paragon, OE, SFO
AF B: OE, SFO
CR90A
CR90A
GR-75 (18):Sato
GR-75 (18)

2 A-Wing
2 VCX
Shara
Tycho

It does come out to 400 points, so this list is tight. There is no fat to trim since there are only 5 upgrades, 6 ships and 6 squads. Go find a leaner list than that!

What I have found with Sato, is he is incredibly unpredictable. The AF with OE and long range are tossing 2 blacks and 1 red. Not very good for reliable damage output, but that's why there is 2. I played 1 game where Paragon double arced an ISD in 2 rounds and dropped it from 95% health to 0. I had help from an A-Wing and 1-2 damage from the other AF. I've also played games where the AF averages only 3 damage an attack, and with evades/brace, you just can't get the damage to stick. It hurts. I'm not sure how to improve it without loading a ton of points into it.

I always take a squad token on the AF and CR90s because Relay is what makes this list work. You need Sato to trigger every time you attack, and this list emphasizes focus firing a single ship. The problem is all the moving pieces, and literally tripping over your own ships. I typically run all Navs and toss in a CF when I think I'll have a good shot and SFO to the CF, or CF into a Nav. I typically deploy at speed 3 since this list wants to move fast, mainly because it can and it can throw your opponent off dealing with 2 speed 3 AFs. I can get a double arc like 50% of the time, which is really really bad but I tend to sacrifice firepower for stiff arming my opponent.

@geek19 I think the CR90s work very well. Double arcing Sato90s throw 4 black dice, and they typically are the money makers here. Small, fast, and nimble, these things get right in the place you don't want them to be and punish you. These are my sacrifice ships. I won't hesitate to throw them into the front arc of something to keep it pinned so my AFs can line up shots. 44 points is nothing to a Vic or MC80. They are excellent at hunting flotillas too.

The A-Wings and aces are fun to play with. I really enjoy Tycho and Shara having a merry time blasting Ties from the sky. I try to keep a VCX in range of Tycho so I can always Relay to him to paint my target, since he is the best at it. Shara is good for tying stuff up, and I like to use the 2 A-Wings and VCXs to chew away from the outside. A-Wings can die pretty quick to good rolls, so I try to keep them alive as long as possible.

The GR-75s don't do much. They activate and push squads. And then they move. I always have them running away from the fight because the synergy with Relay is too good. If I ran them with the fleet, I'd lose value in the VCX with Relay, and basically wasting 15 points in a fat A-Wing with Strategic. This way also preserves 68 points on the table with little risk of dying.

In terms of objectives, I like Targetting Beacons for the extra rerolls. And it's the only red objective that doesn't benefit the 1st player in any regard. Place the tokens on your side of the map and drag them along with the VCXs. Remember, the range on those tokens is longer than range 5 if you position them correctly. Fire Lanes is a no brainer with all the red dice, and moving tokens under squads and ships will net you some points. I might drop Salvage Run for Intel Sweep, because the dust fields really benefit a Demo list and kind of hurt the AFs. Not being able to shoot through means ships can hide, and we will likely get into medium or close. But I also like it to set up double arcs because you can hide and then burst through.

I'm playing this list but expanded for CC. I really enjoy this skeleton version of it, but it takes a lot of skill to position your ships and making sure your squads don't die. I still struggle with it, mainly because of poor dice rolls. I've also done several versions of it. Drop the AF for Salvation+Raymus will give a bid if I remember, or drop the AF for another CR90 and GR-75 if you want 7 activations.

11 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

This is all from memory so I don't know all the points costs.

Targetting Beacons
Fire Lanes
Salvage Run

AF B: Paragon, OE, SFO
AF B: OE, SFO
CR90A
CR90A
GR-75 (18):Sato
GR-75 (18)

2 A-Wing
2 VCX
Shara
Tycho

It does come out to 400 points, so this list is tight. There is no fat to trim since there are only 5 upgrades, 6 ships and 6 squads. Go find a leaner list than that!

What I have found with Sato, is he is incredibly unpredictable. The AF with OE and long range are tossing 2 blacks and 1 red. Not very good for reliable damage output, but that's why there is 2. I played 1 game where Paragon double arced an ISD in 2 rounds and dropped it from 95% health to 0. I had help from an A-Wing and 1-2 damage from the other AF. I've also played games where the AF averages only 3 damage an attack, and with evades/brace, you just can't get the damage to stick. It hurts. I'm not sure how to improve it without loading a ton of points into it.

I always take a squad token on the AF and CR90s because Relay is what makes this list work. You need Sato to trigger every time you attack, and this list emphasizes focus firing a single ship. The problem is all the moving pieces, and literally tripping over your own ships. I typically run all Navs and toss in a CF when I think I'll have a good shot and SFO to the CF, or CF into a Nav. I typically deploy at speed 3 since this list wants to move fast, mainly because it can and it can throw your opponent off dealing with 2 speed 3 AFs. I can get a double arc like 50% of the time, which is really really bad but I tend to sacrifice firepower for stiff arming my opponent.

I think the CR90s work very well. Double arcing Sato90s throw 4 black dice, and they typically are the money makers here. Small, fast, and nimble, these things get right in the place you don't want them to be and punish you. These are my sacrifice ships. I won't hesitate to throw them into the front arc of something to keep it pinned so my AFs can line up shots. 44 points is nothing to a Vic or MC80. They are excellent at hunting flotillas too.

The A-Wings and aces are fun to play with. I really enjoy Tycho and Shara having a merry time blasting Ties from the sky. I try to keep a VCX in range of Tycho so I can always Relay to him to paint my target, since he is the best at it. Shara is good for tying stuff up, and I like to use the 2 A-Wings and VCXs to chew away from the outside. A-Wings can die pretty quick to good rolls, so I try to keep them alive as long as possible.

The GR-75s don't do much. They activate and push squads. And then they move. I always have them running away from the fight because the synergy with Relay is too good. If I ran them with the fleet, I'd lose value in the VCX with Relay, and basically wasting 15 points in a fat A-Wing with Strategic. This way also preserves 68 points on the table with little risk of dying.

In terms of objectives, I like Targetting Beacons for the extra rerolls. And it's the only red objective that doesn't benefit the 1st player in any regard. Place the tokens on your side of the map and drag them along with the VCXs. Remember, the range on those tokens is longer than range 5 if you position them correctly. Fire Lanes is a no brainer with all the red dice, and moving tokens under squads and ships will net you some points. I might drop Salvage Run for Intel Sweep, because the dust fields really benefit a Demo list and kind of hurt the AFs. Not being able to shoot through means ships can hide, and we will likely get into medium or close. But I also like it to set up double arcs because you can hide and then burst through.

I'm playing this list but expanded for CC. I really enjoy this skeleton version of it, but it takes a lot of skill to position your ships and making sure your squads don't die. I still struggle with it, mainly because of poor dice rolls. I've also done several versions of it. Drop the AF for Salvation+Raymus will give a bid if I remember, or drop the AF for another CR90 and GR-75 if you want 7 activations.

I am noting it does take a lot more work to make this go off. Here's a weird comparison: If you took Rieekan and got DTTs would you do pretty much just as well? Although, I think you'd take CR90B with SW-whatevers instead of naked CR-As.

I love your use of strategic though. How much does it pay off?

Also your list does not care about firs tor second much, but in our meta, its an auto lose in many cases to not have choice of initiative in terms of being lost in objective choices. I guess this list really doesn't care. AA, 6 ships, no real need to be first.

I've found that loading Assault Frigates with a few metric tons of upgrades hasn't done me too many favours when all I want is for the bloody thing to shoot straight. Too many fandangled bells and newfangled whistles weighs down and I'm usually stuck with a niche ship that has to be used just-so in a specific order. Sure it's great when it works, but I don't like choosing admirals based around the whims of one or two ships or having a vestigial corvette's worth of upgrades stapled to its moribund frame. After all, they still tend to blow up, and I'd like it to cost less than my battleships when it does.

So, I've been working with a lean frigate that's simply meant to shoot at one important target and throw in fighters when required regardless of the admiral or the list. It's not meant to absorb too much shock and it doesn't have to be all tricksy, it's just there to be dependable. In that vein:

RAF Mk.II B
-Veteran Gunners, Dual Turbolaser Turrets, Weapon Liaison
=85 points

Yaw in hard, keep the speed up, fire at long range, and make sure there's more tempting targets around (in my case, a Liberty, MC30, or pack of SW90's). The liaison game is an easy one by simplifying your command logistics. Yeah I know, it's seen as 'noob insurance', but I'm fine giving my opponents the benefit of the doubt and realizing they may have some uncouth trick up their sleeves. I may suffer from hubris, but it's typically not when it comes to gaming.

It can get in close and patronizingly patting evade-centric ships with Mothma, sling black dice with Sato, liaise with Iblis, roll with Ackbar, dance with Madine, run with Cracken, die with Rieekan, or be one of the usual suspects with Dodonna. It's not super flashy, but it's a fairly reliable gunship that costs less than my usual strike groups.