We have the concept of uniques and generics, but it seems to me that there should be a middle ground, where some cards are limited to 2 or 3 per squad (at least in the standard tournament 100/6 deathmatch format).

Twin Laser Turret would be on my "limit 2" list, just for starters.

Do you think the game would benefit from fine-tuned limitations like that? Would you limit any cards this way?

That makes NO SENSE at to me at all.

The Unique is just that, one of a kind so while you could see a mechanical equivalent, which could get you to your two, you can't have more than one. The "generic" are just your basic thing.

There's no way I could see a basic piece of equipment like that TLT being limited to just two per squadron. Besides, even if you want to say something is "limited edition" the number of ships you are flying in a standard X-Wing tournament squadron is small enough you could see that piece of "test equipment" on all of the ships in the squadron.

In a way we already DO effectively have "limit 2" and "limit 3" things in the game. When something cost 34-50 points there is effectively a "limit 2" on your standard games. Values from 26-33 is your "limit 3" range.

That is one of the best ideas I've heard for a long time.

Personally I would restrict it to Rebels and Scum who may not have access to certain weaponary or upgrades in large enough numbers to spam them, and thematically it makes sense, however, the days of TLT ruling the roost, as you indicate, are over (for now).

I would limit out and out jousters/fighters; no Z95 Spam for example. I know it's not a competitive build, and never likely to be, but there are very few Rebel or Scum spams that I can think of.

Cheers
Baaa

Makes sense to me!

15 minutes ago, StevenO said:

That makes NO SENSE at to me at all.

I know.

43 minutes ago, Baaa said:

That is one of the best ideas I've heard for a long time.

Personally I would restrict it to Rebels and Scum who may not have access to certain weaponary or upgrades in large enough numbers to spam them, and thematically it makes sense, however, the days of TLT ruling the roost, as you indicate, are over (for now).

I would limit out and out jousters/fighters; no Z95 Spam for example. I know it's not a competitive build, and never likely to be, but there are very few Rebel or Scum spams that I can think of.

Cheers
Baaa

You might want to reconsider the "thematic scarcity" argument because all three major factions do have a high power sponsor in the lore. Empire can afford anything of course. Rebels evolve into the New Republic, both in Legends and new-canon, which had nearly the resources of the Empire before it. Then you have scum's Black Sun, Zann, and Hutts who in addition to being able to steal just about anything the other two can buy, also have their own manufacturing. Unless you're playing a strictly thematic scenario scarcity is not a factor in optimized squads.

1 hour ago, Baaa said:

That is one of the best ideas I've heard for a long time.

Agreed.

1 hour ago, StevenO said:

That makes NO SENSE at to me at all.

The Unique is just that, one of a kind so while you could see a mechanical equivalent, which could get you to your two, you can't have more than one. The "generic" are just your basic thing.

There's no way I could see a basic piece of equipment like that TLT being limited to just two per squadron. Besides, even if you want to say something is "limited edition" the number of ships you are flying in a standard X-Wing tournament squadron is small enough you could see that piece of "test equipment" on all of the ships in the squadron.

In a way we already DO effectively have "limit 2" and "limit 3" things in the game. When something cost 34-50 points there is effectively a "limit 2" on your standard games. Values from 26-33 is your "limit 3" range.

Well, it makes no sense from a "in-universe" perspective, but it is a valid game mechanic. OTOH, at 100 points, you are right that "limit 2-3" is pretty much built into the game.

33 minutes ago, TheHumanHydra said:

Makes sense to me!

Decipher's SWCCG. Wow, that's digging back into the archives!

There's already a limit on Twin Laser Turret.

24 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

You might want to reconsider the "thematic scarcity" argument because all three major factions do have a high power sponsor in the lore. Empire can afford anything of course. Rebels evolve into the New Republic, both in Legends and new-canon, which had nearly the resources of the Empire before it. Then you have scum's Black Sun, Zann, and Hutts who in addition to being able to steal just about anything the other two can buy, also have their own manufacturing. Unless you're playing a strictly thematic scenario scarcity is not a factor in optimized squads.

The only thing I can think of offhand would be the Rule of Two, and that only applies to Sith.

32 minutes ago, nitrobenz said:

You might want to reconsider the "thematic scarcity" argument because all three major factions do have a high power sponsor in the lore. Empire can afford anything of course. Rebels evolve into the New Republic, both in Legends and new-canon, which had nearly the resources of the Empire before it. Then you have scum's Black Sun, Zann, and Hutts who in addition to being able to steal just about anything the other two can buy, also have their own manufacturing. Unless you're playing a strictly thematic scenario scarcity is not a factor in optimized squads.

Hmm, so Rebels and Scum have access to limitless amounts of tech and ships?

Poppycock.

Cheers
Baaa

Epic has an artificial limit on the number of ships of certain types, regardless of points. There are lots of ways different formats restrict certain cards beyond the unique/generic/limited tags. I'm not really breaking new ground here.

I'm arguing for these sorts of card limits for purely game-balancing purposes, which would need to be adjusted for different formats. I think TLTs and many other cards are properly priced but still overused (or underused) in the standard tournament format, so natural limits imposed by squad point totals aren't always enough.

The standard tournament format allows mirror matches where Poe Dameron kills a different Poe Dameron, and Biggs dies 32 times in one day. Gameplay > fluff, which is the argument that "the game is fine the way it is" players are always defending. I agree that gameplay > fluff! So let's limit some cards in the interests of better gameplay even if it doesn't make that much sense in the lore. Kylo Ren wants to give Emperor Palpatine a ride into battle and that's normal, that's fine, we're all okay with that.

Yeah, no, limit of ships is built into the game. Points is how that works, and you don't need to artificially restrict those further. You can only afford so many ships in your squad already - that IS your thematics which also works great as a mechanic. Epic uses a different point scale, so it has to balance out the fact that you could take like 25 naked TIEs. That's way too many TIEs for anybody. Does anybody even own that many TIEs? The logistics would be terrible.

After that you're getting into the weird kind of ban-listing I associate with with some CCGs and is not the sort of mechanic I want to see in the game. Nor do you probably actually want to see it. Well, maybe if you got your own perfect pick of the list, but that's probably not how FFG would implement it.

But y'know, **** some players because they decided to fly TLTs, or autothrusters, or mindlink or whatever some other players say people use to much, right?

The problem seems to be when certain lists spam certain upgrades, such as PTL, TLT, Mindlink and such. Making these upgrades unique would severely cripple them or make them completely useless. Making them 'limited' in a squad sense could be a way to encourage more variety in list building, but with the already limited nature of the Deatatch it seems it might not be as useful a fix after all. 4 TLTs does seem excessive though.

4 hours ago, StevenO said:

That makes NO SENSE at to me at all.

The Unique is just that, one of a kind so while you could see a mechanical equivalent, which could get you to your two, you can't have more than one. The "generic" are just your basic thing.

There's no way I could see a basic piece of equipment like that TLT being limited to just two per squadron. Besides, even if you want to say something is "limited edition" the number of ships you are flying in a standard X-Wing tournament squadron is small enough you could see that piece of "test equipment" on all of the ships in the squadron.

In a way we already DO effectively have "limit 2" and "limit 3" things in the game. When something cost 34-50 points there is effectively a "limit 2" on your standard games. Values from 26-33 is your "limit 3" range.

4 hours ago, TheHumanHydra said:

Makes sense to me!

Again, that is a card game (a game I live very much but still a card game). So in card games limits like these were necessary because it keeps you from spamming certian ships also lets the real basic generics (stromtrooper, T-65 X-wing) have a place without being completely displaced.

However two of a kind and three of a kind doesn't quite work the same way in miniatures. Now in miniatures they have had force organizations before, but that was with a game that had a half a dozen different unit types or so. X-wing standards only has two unit types and they are not that different from each other. Small and Large ships. That's it small and large and both move the same way and stats the same and just about take damage the same.

Now that being sad there are ways to make those two of a kind or 3 of a kind or 4 of a kind you just have to be very clever. For example IG-88 is like a 2 of a kind and with the title and point cost you often want to bring at least 2. The S-TIE and the ARC are 4 of a kind because there are only 4 unique pilots.

You could make red titles that have one special ability (Red 5 gains target lock after spending a target lock for torpedo weapon) and has a synergistic ability. (may reroll attack and defense dice for each ship with red title at range 1). having only three red titles red 2 red 3 and red 5 you can get a similar if not same effect as 2 of a kind or 3 of a kind.

I don't think we are at that point yet to limit like that. I'm afraid it could lead to sanction upgrades and lists for sanctioned events. I feel that some of this stems from not liking certain lists or feeling that they are an 'NPE.' I guess the solution is as simple as not playing them.

at our local store I kept hearing comments about my mindlink list, because Manaroo and Fen Rau were in my list. People have perceived ideas what should be limited or fixed. I do feel this is a good discussion to have. It's just hard to please everyone or to catch all the problems.

11 hours ago, Marinealver said:

However two of a kind and three of a kind doesn't quite work the same way in miniatures.

Works okay for WFB/40K and a lot of other miniatures games, or at least it used to. Your army could contain"0-2 Trolls" or whatever.

I'm not holding up those games as examples of great game balance, but certainly it's very easy to simply write "you can't take more than 2 of these per squad" without any need for explanation.

I think the fact that Outlaw Tech is limited defeats any "but lore" argument and makes any "thematic scarcity" explanation unnecessary. Is there really some good lore reason why I can't have two outlaw techs on my ship, assuming I have enough slots? Of course not. It's just a card effect that would be obnoxious if you were to double up on it.

If TLT had been printed with limit 2 and a rule card explaining what that meant, no one would think that was crazy. It would help explain why it's a breezy 6 points, and would've stopped Thug Lyfe before it became a dull-as-rocks entry point into tournament play. That didn't happen, but I think it probably should have. If only there were some way to correct that!

Well of course the limited rule wasn't part of the original rules. It was a later invention. Tactician was actually made limited through the FAQ. Does anyone still think that FFG would never consider 2- and 3-of-a-kind limits?

13 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

But y'know, **** some players because they decided to fly TLTs, or autothrusters, or mindlink or whatever some other players say people use to much, right?

It isn't a screw-you when something gets nerfed, buffed, banned or whatever if it's in the interests of game balance. I see it as the total opposite, as a way to potentially liberate a whole host of squad types that haven't had a real chance to see competition for a couple of years.

The problem I see with the current options we have -- unique, generic, limited, faction-restricted -- is that they're not subtle enough to address some of the balance problems that arise in tournament play. I don't think TLT should be unique, but quad TLTs are obnoxious.

There's a middle ground, and it wouldn't be hard for FFG to implement it.

2 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Now that being sad there are ways to make those two of a kind or 3 of a kind or 4 of a kind you just have to be very clever. For example IG-88 is like a 2 of a kind and with the title and point cost you often want to bring at least 2. The S-TIE and the ARC are 4 of a kind because there are only 4 unique pilots.

I really like the all-unique-pilots approach that we're seeing with some of the new ships.

Now imagine if Blue Squadron Pilot (PS 2 B-Wing of BBBBZ fame) had been unique, or limited to 2. Would B-Wings have all but replaced Rookie Pilot X-Wings as the best choice in that price range? We'll never know, but with hindsight, it seems like finer controls over card quantities might have been wise, even in mundane areas like generic B-Wings.

What if X-Wings were the only Rebel ships that had generics? Would it have been easier to maintain its status as the workhorse for the fleet? Nah, probably not.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Tangent time:

The YT-1300 is a weird beast when viewed in terms of in-game scarcity. There's no logic to Han Solo and Lando both flying two different Millennium Falcons -- well okay, only one of them can carry the title, but what exactly is the story with the other YT-1300? You can make up all sorts of stories, but both ships are intended to be the Millennium Falcon and we all know it, and it's weird that they can fly together in the same squad. But it's not a broken squad, it's just thematically totally bonkers.

The casual side of me really wants them to fix that, to make all of those Falcons impossible to fly together. But it doesn't do anything to help game balance, so I wouldn't bother.

One of them is obviously a Millennium Falsehood.

Anyway, while it is an option, I feel like as much as people think X-Wing is a really complicated game with too many options - it doesn't really require multiple rulebooks to run and the card element is not that plentiful compared to some stuff I've played. To me, Limit 3-2-1 Ban type lists feel like something for those really huge games - where almost you have a overwhelming number of options in cards or whatever and so many of them are really just filler - you need to restrict or even remove the really good stuff in order to make anything relevant (my most common experience with this was with Yu-Gi-Oh which really has too many cards. But the banned or limited ones tend to be the best - especially cards from early sets which were all upside without restrictions). I don't think X-Wing is necessarily in that place yet. There's maybe 1 or 2 filler pilots per ship. Some upgrades seem kind of filler-y but a lot of people might still figure out how to use them, and most ships in general are kind of in this middle ground blob where depending on your time and place they can do okay and you never know what'll come in the next corner to make that ship sing. There is also an element that as players, it is hard to be objective about a mechanical balance. We filter through play, and if the other guy has fun running TLTs (Note: I cannot confirm or deny people who enjoy TLT) I always think it's a bad show to be like "No, we do not like this, stop playing this way". It's like that fortressing discussion from the other day - some people think that's unsportsmanlike, other people think its a legit strategy and fly it themselves.

I'd say it'd be okay maybe like as a seasonal thing, but FFGs release schedule kind of does that anyway, with new waves shaking stuff up, rolling around the lists as people find new upgrades and ships to work in. Some stuff from old waves even takes a while to click. If X-Wing releases slowed down or stopped (which I do not predict any time soon) you'd probably have to switch to such a system with limitations like that in order to keep things fresh, at least if there were tournament seasons coming up with literally nothing to change how people play (But in casual games between friends, y'know, who cares if you slip "Pot of Greed" in there?). That said, I'd believe FFG would do any sort of specific mechanic if they felt the game was really performing outside their design intent. TLT's been around a few waves, so as unfun as it is that may be working as intended. With U-Boats out of the way, anyway.

5 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

You can only afford so many ships in your squad already - that IS your thematics which also works great as a mechanic. Epic uses a different point scale, so it has to balance out the fact that you could take like 25 naked TIEs. That's way too many TIEs for anybody. Does anybody even own that many TIEs? The logistics would be terrible.

X-WING TM EPIC PLAY TOURNAMENT RULES

Page 2: squad building

"Each player may field a maximum of 12 small ships of a single type and 6 large ships of a single type. For example, if a player fielded “Backstabber”, “Howlrunner”, and 10 Academy Pilots, he would reach his cap of 12 and could not field any more TIE fighters. Similarly, if a player fielded Colonel Jendon and 5 Omicron Group Pilots, he could not take another Lambda-class Shuttle"

Epic uses the same point scale, but does impose limits on how many of what kinds of ships can be brought into play. This is similar- though more limited- to what is being proposed in this thread.

YAH DAT!

I like this idea for Mission and Cinematic play.... could be cool.

Just now, dewbie420 said:

I like this idea for Mission and Cinematic play.... could be cool.

... ... IT IS!

34 minutes ago, Punning Pundit said:

X-WING TM EPIC PLAY TOURNAMENT RULES

Page 2: squad building

"Each player may field a maximum of 12 small ships of a single type and 6 large ships of a single type. For example, if a player fielded “Backstabber”, “Howlrunner”, and 10 Academy Pilots, he would reach his cap of 12 and could not field any more TIE fighters. Similarly, if a player fielded Colonel Jendon and 5 Omicron Group Pilots, he could not take another Lambda-class Shuttle"

Epic uses the same point scale, but does impose limits on how many of what kinds of ships can be brought into play. This is similar- though more limited- to what is being proposed in this thread.

I mean, that's basically what I said, but obviously the point scale is 300 instead of 100. Well, at least that's the math I did on "25 tie fighters" was. Because a lot of ship costs are balanced somewhere around the 100 point format, you may need artificial limiters when you change how the points are. (Again, because I mean, that's a lot of TIEs. Sanity limits need to be imposed, that's not about "I think 4 TLTs sucks too much, but I don't want to limit it to just 1 TLT")

Theoretically after C-ROC comes out, Scum might get close with 12 light Sycks and 12 Banana Pirates but If I actually saw somebody actually bust out that many models on purpose I'd probably give them a funny look. It makes me twitchy just thinking about that many ships on the board, and how easy it would be for them to just go everywhere with one wrong move. Ech.

7 hours ago, Baaa said:

Hmm, so Rebels and Scum have access to limitless amounts of tech and ships?

Poppycock.

Cheers
Baaa

No they don't. But in terms of a 100 point (and even a 300 point game) they have.

The Rebels had around 100k starfighters available across the galaxy. Or even more.

And for the scum factions it's the same.

9 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

Decipher's SWCCG. Wow, that's digging back into the archives!

They came up with the name 'Mauler Mithel', am I correct? Maybe they introduced the whole idea of giving imperial pilots nicknames, which has been a huge influence in our game.

Anyway, I have some memories of playing that game, but it wasn't a hit with me. Still don't know if Han Solo worked against Tarkin...