Hey guys and gals,

I am getting ready to start a Knight-level campaign, and one of my players wants to make a Captain America-inspired Force User who uses the Move power to throw a shield when necessary. Since a shield can be thrown normally (e.g. Kyuzo War Shield, or improvised Ranged (Light) weapon), his reasoning is that it would disguise his Force use when throwing the shield. Would you allow the shield weapon qualities like Disorient or Concussive to be triggered with Advantage like normal? I am inclined to say yes, but since I am a very new GM, I don't know if that will be imbalanced later.

My second question for this game has to do with starting gear. The Knight level rules give characters a lightsaber OR 9500 credits, total, of gear. Where does a training saber fall in that? Does it count as a lightsaber, even though it is not nearly as rare, doesn't deal lethal damage, have breach, or the ability to crit? Or does it count as just another piece of gear towards that 9500 credit limit?

What about rarity limits on starting gear? I don't want to allow restricted gear at start, but I am OK with high rarity items like that Kyuzo War Shield as long as they pay the normal premium for its rarity. Is this reasonable?

Thanks!!

I would recommend against allowing restricted items, they make great awards later on. Training lightsabers are regular weapons. Just 300 c hilts with a 100 c training emitter in them.

The qualities on of the shield would certainly make it a more interesting weapon. If he wants to throw it often I would simply require an upgrade on his difficultly dice but I would take away penalties for improvized weapons. I would still damage the shield on despairs if something else wasn't more interesting. Does he want to use saber throw to have it return to him? I would apply the same always upgrade rule if you let with that talent. Also i would recommend the hunter skill that allows force dice to be added to ranged light weapons as an alternative, and just require the same 2 force pips to throw it and return.

1. Yes? Maybe? I don't have "Forged in Battle", so I haven't compared the War Shield stats to Move stats. It doesn't sound unreasonable on paper, but someone else will hopefully chime in. [Edit: And @killerbeardhawk did!]

2. At 400cr, I would totally allow the Training Saber as part of the 9500cr starting gear. Strikes me as FFG's way of letting players have their starting character cake and eat their lightsabery goodness too.

3. That's more up to you. I set essentially the same parameters with my groups. Pay base credit value for starting equipment; no Restricted. From then on, Rarity applies to all purchases.

Thanks for the replies, guys.

For the shield discussion, I am considering allowing the use of Saber Throw with the shield once they get the talent, but that's a ways off right now. I am torn because the talent specifically calls for a Lightsaber check while Move is ranged Discipline. I suppose I could use the same mechanics as Saber Throw but increase the difficulty of the Discipline check by 1 and make them spend the extra Force pips to get it back.

Right now, though, their idea is to use it as a guaranteed Silhouette 0 object to throw for 5 damage. My plan was to let them use the rules for the Kyuzo War Shield where 3 Advantage can make it return to you, but I think letting that be part of the Move power action might be too much. That also balances it more, I think, because the PC has to choose whether to get the shield back or trigger an active quality. Alternatively if they don't generate enough Advantage to have it ricochet back, they can still get an extra benefit by triggering the active qualities.

Honestly, I'd just have the player use the Move power if they want a more potent version of throwing the shield. Why? Guaranteed at least 6 damage if you hit, you can toss it way further with Move than anything else as short range is the default limit for natural thrown weapons, they are motivated to spend XP to increase both their Discipline skill for more damage & their Force Rating to throw further... etc...

Why not allow Restricted gear? After all, a lightsaber is Restricted.

My reasoning was that it is lightsaber OR 9500 credits worth of gear. And restricted gear comes with a bunch of checks to acquire if purchased normally.

It comes with one check--a Streetwise check. Buying non-Restricted gear also comes with one check--a Negotiation check. I'm assuming that you're not having the characters make Negotiation checks for starting gear, so why make them make Streetwise checks for it?

27 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Why not allow Restricted gear? After all, a lightsaber is Restricted.

This, except it's the Crystal that's restricted, not the hilt.

25 minutes ago, AeroEng42 said:

My reasoning was that it is lightsaber OR 9500 credits worth of gear. And restricted gear comes with a bunch of checks to acquire if purchased normally.

The entire point of Knight-Level Play is so that a player can start off with a Lightsaber (plus crystal) from the beginning if they want to.

Starting XP games allow one to pick up something like an Ancient Sword, Training Stick or a Lightsaber hilt with a Training Emitter, so the Lightsaber focused characters can still use their talents and not feel like they wasted XP for the next 10 or so sessions until they go on a quest for their kyber crystal.

To restrict the players on their equipment further than the book allows isn't very fair to the ones that are planning on starting with a specific skillset. Say a player is a thief, they would obviously want to start with a set of lockpicking tools.... except they are restricted.

Or a slicer that wants to start off with slicer gear... except it's restricted.

Or a Force user that wants to start with a Lightsaber in Knight-Level Play...

From personal experience, I have started games where there were no restrictions on items and games where there were restrictions (nothing above rarity 4 & no restricted items, all games started in EotE and branched off from there).

The non-restricted games allowed everyone equal share of starting with some cool stuff, especially if they took on additional obligation for credits. In that instance, only one player took advantage of it and got a weapon that was much stronger than the rest of the group's weapons. There was about 2 sessions where that player was killing the majority of the adversaries they fought before everyone else got up to his speed. Everyone else had a chance to acquire the same items but chose not to and it wasn't long for them to catch up in terms of combat ability.

Contrasted to other groups where items were restricted, they seemed to want certain items right away that they had the credits for but I didn't allow them to acquire, items that would have enhanced the story and given them more options to do cool things that they had to wait on. Stuff like neuroparalytics & lockpicking kits.

I was not thinking of it terms of using Move. I think it would work no problem within the rules of Move, but simply allowing the active qualities. At 5 base damage I wouldn't worry about restricting it's use.

As far as starting with Restricted items, I generally play it on a case-by-case basis rather than lay down any sort of blanket rulings, at least with characters that are starting level in terms of XP and credits.

For Knight Level PCs however, the sky's pretty much the limit; if they can afford to purchase it, then the PC can have it. After all, one of the Knight Level options for gear is a Restricted kyber crystal, so doesn't make much sense for the GM to allow a PC to start with that Restricted item but then disallow the other PCs from picking different Restricted items.

I like the idea of a weapon whose primary use is as a Force-thrown projectile using the Move power.

I believe I suggested something similar for a homebrew discblade.

You might consider giving the thrown shield a critical rating, since the Move ranged attack doesn't automatically come with one.

Edit: Also, he might want it to return immediately instead of having to spend an action to bring it back to his hand. Consider allowing this with additional Force Points or Advantage spent.

On 2/19/2017 at 0:23 AM, awayputurwpn said:

I like the idea of a weapon whose primary use is as a Force-thrown projectile using the Move power.

I believe I suggested something similar for a homebrew discblade.

You might consider giving the thrown shield a critical rating, since the Move ranged attack doesn't automatically come with one.

Edit: Also, he might want it to return immediately instead of having to spend an action to bring it back to his hand. Consider allowing this with additional Force Points or Advantage spent.

The critical rating is a good idea. I will do that, probably using the critical rating for the shield itself.

I wasn't sure how to rule the returning to hand part. I was going to say 3 Advantage since that is called out for the rules of the Kyuzo War Shield in Forged in Battle, but I like the idea of allowing Force points too. Now the question is 1 point (like Saber Throw) or 2 points (like the Philaxian phase knife from Endless Vigil). I am leaning towards 1 Force point, but with the caveat that 1 Threat on the check can make it not come straight back to hand, and 2 Threat or more could make it get lodged in a wall, or something like that?

1 hour ago, AeroEng42 said:

The critical rating is a good idea. I will do that, probably using the critical rating for the shield itself.

I wasn't sure how to rule the returning to hand part. I was going to say 3 Advantage since that is called out for the rules of the Kyuzo War Shield in Forged in Battle, but I like the idea of allowing Force points too. Now the question is 1 point (like Saber Throw) or 2 points (like the Philaxian phase knife from Endless Vigil). I am leaning towards 1 Force point, but with the caveat that 1 Threat on the check can make it not come straight back to hand, and 2 Threat or more could make it get lodged in a wall, or something like that?

Sooo what happens when the PC (and other players) figures out that using the Move Power is better than Saber Throw now once you have a couple Force Rating? Especially for those that do not otherwise have access to it.

4 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Sooo what happens when the PC (and other players) figures out that using the Move Power is better than Saber Throw now once you have a couple Force Rating? Especially for those that do not otherwise have access to it.

1) If power creep is the issue, just write the shield's ability to be thrown with the the Move Force power into the item's description itself. That way it is a small exception rather than a sweeping one. This makes it manageable to change or otherwise mitigate if you need to.

2) If you're concerned with the distance or "return to hand" dynamic, consider that aerodynamics can play into it. If the shield is designed to be thrown, with just a little telekinetic *oomph* to get the extra range/stabilization, it would make sense that flies way easier than a lightsaber.

3) I doubt the thrown shield could ever rival a lightsaber for damage (with a base damage of 5 and no Breach or even Pierce rating) so it I hardly more powerful on that front.

4) If it still feels overpowered for some reason, perhaps a unique combat skill can be made (Disc Throwing?) for combining with the Move power.

1 minute ago, awayputurwpn said:

1) If power creep is the issue, just write the shield's ability to be thrown with the the Move Force power into the item's description itself. That way it is a small exception rather than a sweeping one. This makes it manageable to change or otherwise mitigate if you need to.

2) If you're concerned with the distance or "return to hand" dynamic, consider that aerodynamics can play into it. If the shield is designed to be thrown, with just a little telekinetic *oomph* to get the extra range/stabilization, it would make sense that flies way easier than a lightsaber.

3) I doubt the thrown shield could ever rival a lightsaber for damage (with a base damage of 5 and no Breach or even Pierce rating) so it I hardly more powerful on that front.

4) If it still feels overpowered for some reason, perhaps a unique combat skill can be made (Disc Throwing?) for combining with the Move power.

I think emsquared's point was that other PCs would use Move to throw their lightsabers instead of Saber Throw.

I would require a minimum of 45 XP in Move to let a PC do that because they would need 1 Range upgrade to get medium range and the fine manipulation upgrade to keep the lightsaber lit. I would also make ALL the lightsaber item qualities active, including breach, to represent the orientation of the lightsaber when it hits, and that also will change the base damage value. If they don't get 2 Advantage to activate Breach, the blade doesn't hit and it just deals 5 damage. I would also maybe change the Discipline check to another skill to make it more difficult.

8 minutes ago, AeroEng42 said:

I think emsquared's point was that other PCs would use Move to throw their lightsabers instead of Saber Throw.

Okay, then my first suggestion should suffice then apologies for the larger than necessary answer!

37 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Okay, then my first suggestion should suffice then apologies for the larger than necessary answer!

I get that even with a "special snowflake return mechanic" this weapon would be suboptimal to any number of options, but there are already mechanics to deal with every step of this. Seems to be more trouble (opening up the discussion of special rules for any number of whims) than it's worth.

Admittedly though, I have very little patience for indulging snowflakes as unoriginal as this one.

6 minutes ago, emsquared said:

Admittedly though, I have very little patience for indulging snowflakes as unoriginal as this one.

There's a line somewhere between "indulging snowflakes" and "working with a player to bring his vision for his character to a satisfying fruition." There are definitely times where I have to tell my players, "No, it doesn't work that way." But if they have an idea that they think is cool, it would behoove me to try and see it the same way, and help them to realize the idea.

Thinking a bit more on it, the shield returning from medium range or long range might be a bit much...perhaps you could limit that functionality to short range. You can still use Move to keep it in flight at long range if you wanted to, and keep attacking with it over multiple rounds, without it returning to your hand.

On 2/17/2017 at 11:46 AM, killerbeardhawk said:

I would recommend against allowing restricted items, they make great awards later on. Training lightsabers are regular weapons. Just 300 c hilts with a 100 c training emitter in them.

The qualities on of the shield would certainly make it a more interesting weapon. If he wants to throw it often I would simply require an upgrade on his difficultly dice but I would take away penalties for improvized weapons. I would still damage the shield on despairs if something else wasn't more interesting. Does he want to use saber throw to have it return to him? I would apply the same always upgrade rule if you let with that talent. Also i would recommend the hunter skill that allows force dice to be added to ranged light weapons as an alternative, and just require the same 2 force pips to throw it and return.

Except this is Knight play, where giving a character a real lightsaber worth 9000 credits at start is totally fine, so I don't really see how giving them a restricted shield is any different in that regard. If the player wants the shield in place of the saber, I'd be 100% fine with it.

OT: I would allow bonuses to apply as normal on the player's Discipline roll to actually Move the shield. If he gets enough advantage to trigger a special effect of the weapon, let him do it.

As to the issue of using the shield to try and secretly use the Force without twigging people to the fact, I would have the people witnessing it make a contested roll versus...well I'm not sure what stat would fit for this, but some stat of the player. I'd only bother with this if it's a Rival or a Nemesis, or if he rolls a Despair on his Discipline check for the Move attack. If it's a Despair, just have someone, not sure who, noticed something....off about how he threw the shield. Maybe a wandering droid if it's in an urban setting. Or perhaps some random bystander who was hiding nearby and watching, etc. But someone, got twigged to something hinky going on, and that information might get passed up the chain of command. Same thing if the NPC's succeed at their Perception check vs his stats. This, over time, could result in an Obligation related to the Inquisition hunting down rumors of someone tossing a shield around in ways that defied physics and modern technology.

That's really all I'd do with it. Have the chance for some bad results if he wants to fight in a way that's so eye catching, but for the most part, let him have his fun in the sun as a hero.

Thanks for the input. I considered the opposed roll against important Rivals and Nemesis enemies to not notice use of the Force. I was thinking either Perception vs Deception or Knowledge Education vs Deception, whichever is harder for the PC. I thought Education because the NPC might notice the aerodynamics of the shield are off since it isn't necessarily being stabilized by rotation but by the Force. If the PC cinematic ally describes the throw as including rotation, I might add a Setback die or two to the NPC's roll. Sound reasonable?

I think it would depend on the NPC really. Personally, I think it should be a Perception roll on the NPC side regardless, simply due to the nature of the situation. It's whether or not they are perceiving the oddness, if they were quick enough to notice it while being in combat. To me, that's pretty much Perception in a nutshell. Not sure what the PC would use to counter it though, perhaps skullduggery? Deception would work too I guess, really either one makes sense to me.

What you should always think of doing, or at least this is what I would do as the GM for that, is to have the possibility of a Despair on his Discipline attack roll, to always have the option of being "someone noticed". Not trigger a roll, just, Someone Noticed. I mean, if every time a PC with a saber ignites it, they run the risk of getting Imperial attention, I don't see why it shouldn't also be tricky for someone doing impossible things with a shield. Sure, it's a little easier for him, hence the rolls only in some situations, but he shouldn't be able to fight like that, without the constant risk of exposure. I would make sure he is aware of this possibility,and also, don't make it happen every time there is a Despair. Just sometimes.

I think I would leave the noticing of the Force usage up to Threat/Advantage rolled during combat, unless enemies have a specific reason to think something is fishy with the Force.

Your best bet is a Kyuzo War Shied (Forged in Battle) + Magnetic Weapon Tether (Keeping the Peace) . Although the Shield doesn't have any hard points, you could ask a friend with Tinkerer to put one on there.

Kyuzo War Shield: Ranged (Light) and with 3 Adv the shield ricochets back into your grasp. Credits/R: 750/R8.

Magnetic Weapon Tether: During his turn, the wielder may recover the weapon as an incidental so long as he is engaged with it.
Modification Options: 1 Innate Talent (Quick Draw) Mod.
Hard Points Required: 1
Price: 250 credits.

15 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

I think I would leave the noticing of the Force usage up to Threat/Advantage rolled during combat, unless enemies have a specific reason to think something is fishy with the Force.

That would work too, though I guess it depends on how often the GM wants the issue to come up in play. Threat/Advantage come up almost every single roll of the dice, whereas having a contested roll would be less often. If every minion group can notice the weird effects in every encounter, it might completely negate the whole point of trying to be subtle about it, simply by getting a couple advantage.

Or are you suggesting that the threat/advantage would then trigger the perception check?