Interesting...

So a Bwing shoots at a ship from the Station and loses its blue die. QLT counters...

or does it?

Counter attacks are subject to obstruction, whether ships are involved or not.

1 minute ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Interesting...

So a Bwing shoots at a ship from the Station and loses its blue die. QLT counters...

or does it?

QLT counters, loses 1 blue die. 0 Die attack is cancelled.

3 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

I think this was because undeadguy said that the squadrons that would attack a ship even obstructed can't be countered as long as the counter would obstructed because LoS gos both ways.

I think it is wrong. We can't do this assumption only cause right now there is nothing that play a role in this situation. The fact is that we have Ciena Ree and Jaina's light that make asymmetric situations even when both doesn't add anything here.

Counter is a new attack and we must check a new LoS. It could not change anything but both LoS are not the same.

How is LOS not the same? Here are the LOS rules:

Line of Sight When resolving an attack, players measure line of sight between ships and squadrons in the play area to determine if an attack is possible and whether it is obstructed.

• To determine line of sight, a player uses the range ruler to trace a line between the attacking squadron or hull zone and the defending squadron or hull zone.
• When tracing line of sight to or from a squadron, trace the line using the point of the squadron’s base that is closest to the opposing squadron or hull zone.
• When tracing line of sight to or from a hull zone, trace the line using the yellow targeting point printed in that hull zone.
• If line of sight is traced through a hull zone on the defender that is not the defending zone, the attacker does not have line of sight and must choose another target.
• If line of sight is traced through an obstacle token or through a ship that is not the attacker or defender, the attack is obstructed.
• Squadrons do not block or obstruct line of sight.
• The attacker’s hull zones do not block his line of sight.
• If players must trace a line that is longer than the range ruler, they can estimate the line extended from the end of the ruler.

I get what @Ardaedhel is saying now. Its more likely to happen with Rhymer and an LOS dot on the Defending Hull Zone that is near the Edge of the Cardboard, rather than the Center...

So apologise, mate -I was dancing around without seeing, but I do now... You have your point.

Let's get Rules-y (and WATCH ME DO A 180! WOO!)

Quad Laser Turrets are while defending . You are defending because the attack has already chosen a defending hull zone.

The rules then tell you to perform an attack with an AA armament of 1 Blue Die.

No mention is made of removing any of the attacking rules, other than you can do it even if destroyed .

Typically, counter attached to squadrons who do not have hull zones and where LOS is always reciprocal.

I believe the assumption is that the dice are to be rolled, in ignorance to hull zone arc, as they are intended to make that attack.

That would mean that.... Devastator cannot Trigger. As the attack is made in ignorance to Hull Zones. Even if you're shot in the front.

Otherwise, you will have situations where, if you assume the Defending Zone is the Counter Zone, you're going to not have your Counter attack by Variance of Arc. Which is counter to the point of having counter after all...

Sp which is more important to keep as a Rule? The ability to counter because you took points for it, or trading the ability to counter in some circumstances for multiple ships as a general rule, to allow one ship to have a better attack potentially, maybe, occasionally ?

Go with the Rule that applies to most. having counter is counter, and counter is ignorant to the Hull Zone attacked/Defended against.

... Spin me Right Round Baby, Right Round, Like a Record Baby.......... ::falls over::

We have 2 different issues here. Do you have LOS? If the squad can trace LOS to your hull zone, regardless of arc, you have LOS back. If you go over an obstacle, that LOS is also obstructed. LOS is always reciprocal, unless a ship has to trace its LOS over its own hull zone. This means the defending ship does not have LOS back, but that doesn't matter since ships can't counter attack ships. Squads do not have a hull zone, so you always have LOS.

Now, if the squad is outside of arc, you cannot form an attack from the defending arc. This is very different from LOS, since arcs are based on the lines on the base.

Does QTL come from the defending arc? I want to say no because the ship has counter 1 from every hull zone. You do not perform a counter attack a hull. You just get an attack, which of course must follow the rules of attack.

QLT grants Counter 1, i.e. " ... you may attack that squadron with an anti-squadron armament of blue dice equal to 1 "

Where "you" is, as we know, "the ship" - there is no basis anywhere to infer that it must mean "the defending hull zone".

Also note that the attack process begins with step 1, which is to choose an attacking hull zone. Nothing in Counter or QLT changes this - the only restriction is that the target and the armament are chosen for you.

27 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

QLT grants Counter 1, i.e. " ... you may attack that squadron with an anti-squadron armament of blue dice equal to 1 "

Where "you" is, as we know, "the ship" - there is no basis anywhere to infer that it must mean "the defending hull zone".

Also note that the attack process begins with step 1, which is to choose an attacking hull zone. Nothing in Counter or QLT changes this - the only restriction is that the target and the armament are chosen for you.

What if we consider this as a squadron keyword only, so you would proceed through the attack steps as a squadron instead? You forgo the "which arc am I attacking from" issue. I think you can get away with this because you gain counter, and counter is only listed under the squadron keywords. It's a weird way to view it.

Just now, Undeadguy said:

What if we consider this as a squadron keyword only, so you would proceed through the attack steps as a squadron instead? You forgo the "which arc am I attacking from" issue. I think you can get away with this because you gain counter, and counter is only listed under the squadron keywords. It's a weird way to view it.

But then you still have the open question of where to draw LoS from.

31 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

QLT grants Counter 1, i.e. " ... you may attack that squadron with an anti-squadron armament of blue dice equal to 1 "

Where "you" is, as we know, "the ship" - there is no basis anywhere to infer that it must mean "the defending hull zone".

Also note that the attack process begins with step 1, which is to choose an attacking hull zone. Nothing in Counter or QLT changes this - the only restriction is that the target and the armament are chosen for you.

Yup, this is the answer. Defender chooses the hull zone to attack from. Thank you, DA! It's always using shorthand that gets us into trouble...

5 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

What if we consider this as a squadron keyword only, so you would proceed through the attack steps as a squadron instead? You forgo the "which arc am I attacking from" issue. I think you can get away with this because you gain counter, and counter is only listed under the squadron keywords. It's a weird way to view it.

No basis for it, and step 1 of the attack rules is common for both ships and squadrons:

Declare Target : The attacker declares the defender and the attacking hull zone, if any. If the defender is a ship,the attacker declares the defending hull zone. Measure line of sight to the defender to ensure the attack is possible and to determine if it is obstructed.

◊◊ If the attacker is a ship, the defending squadron or hull zone must be inside the attacking hull zone’s firing arcand at attack range of the attacking hull zone.
◊◊ If the attacker is a squadron, the defending squadron or hull zone must be at distance 1.

Now that I'm at a PC... This is the scenario where it matters:

If the A-wing attacks Devastator 's front arc, the front arc doesn't have arc back to the A-wing. If Devastator counters out the side arc, counter is obstructed. If we handwave the source hull zone and measure only LoS, the ISD gets a shot that I don't think it should get.

Yup. No QLT counter in that scenario I think Ard.

(Luckily the Rebel scum is at zero hull so he's dead anyway )

So we are happy that if the attacking squadron is in clear LOS to the front arc, then it can (Devestator) IF it has not already done so this round, add extra dice to the Counter attack?

I mean you can attack a squadron in your front hull zone with 2 blue AA dice and add Devastator additional dice, seems odd you couldn't return fire if it's a legal target in your front zone.

Would having Kallus on board still allow a Counter shot at obstructed Unique squadron?

1 minute ago, TheEasternKing said:

So we are happy that if the attacking squadron is in clear LOS to the front arc, then it can (Devestator) IF it has not already done so this round, add extra dice to the Counter attack?

I mean you can attack a squadron in your front hull zone with 2 blue AA dice and add Devastator additional dice, seems odd you couldn't return fire if it's a legal target in your front zone.

Would having Kallus on board still allow a Counter shot at obstructed Unique squadron?

Yes, you can add the Devastator dice to a counter attack out the front arc, assuming you have the shot (LoS and firing arc).

Kallus would apply, but because he adds to your dice pool --as opposed to increases your battery --he would not give you an obstructed shot that you would not otherwise have had.

Like, say you'd put Kallus on a GSD-I and were taking an obstructed shot at an ace: obstruction removes a die from your pool, leaving you gathering no dice for your attack pool, which cancels the attack before you got the opportunity to modify your attack pool with Kallus.

5 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Yup. No QLT counter in that scenario I think Ard.

(Luckily the Rebel scum is at zero hull so he's dead anyway )

It's actually Tycho in disguise.

Rieekan is off on the other corner of the board, thematically sailing off into the sunset in his 18-point lifeboat.

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

Yes, you can add the Devastator dice to a counter attack out the front arc, assuming you have the shot (LoS and firing arc).

Kallus would apply, but because he adds to your dice pool --as opposed to increases your battery --he would not give you an obstructed shot that you would not otherwise have had.

Like, say you'd put Kallus on a GSD-I and were taking an obstructed shot at an ace: obstruction removes a die from your pool, leaving you gathering no dice for your attack pool, which cancels the attack before you got the opportunity to modify your attack pool with Kallus.

Ahh like Admiral Squidly himself functions.

Cheers.

Interesting.

You have Admiral Ackbar, and an AFMK-IIA

You activate the Assault Frigate and you use Ackbar, because Ackbar Assault Frigate.

Your enemy can now bomb you in the Nose or Rear, even if you have QLTs , because you cannot Counter Attack.

... Have fun with this knowledge, Imperials.

Great catch Dras!

So...

Option A: The attacking hull zone is the defender hull zone. All other rules don't change.

Then we would have weird situations where I can't counter cause, no arc or Ackbar.

Option B: the attacking hull zone is the defender hull zone. Don't check arc of fire.

Then no problem with arcs but we keep the Ackbar issue.

Option C: the defender choose the hull zone from where he is countering. Other rules don't change.

Then weird situations would be solved as long as the attack rules let you. But Ackbar is kept as a problem.

Option D: no hull zone involved, just throw the dice. No other rules changed.

Then we don't have a reference to check LoS. This is the reason cause I defend that LoS doesn't go both way. A ship always have at least 2 LoS over a squadron. It could have 3 if the squadron look for just 1 hull zone. What DOT we are using. A ship can trace 3 LoS against a squadron placed in front of it while the squadrkn has only 1 (I am not considering arcs here as any hull zone involved). So...

Option E: no hull involved, the defender's LoS is replaced by the squadron LoS. Whatever the squadrons had, the defender has too.

This is the easiest and less problematic solution. What I see here is that if we found a situation where the LoS between two squadrons are not the same (due to a special rule or whatever, but I think right now we don't have any situation like this) we would have problems. Anyway I think this is the best one even when we don't have a rule that support that.

I think I don't miss anything but maybe I do. I am a bit tired after defending a base where I win for just 8 points XD

The easiest is to stop considering the Ackbar piece a "problem" and consider it "as intended"

There are no options, Baa Baa - the rules are clear. Step 1 of the attack process (which applies to all attacks, by both ships and squadrons) is to choose a target and an attacking hull zone ("if any").

50 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:

There are no options, Baa Baa - the rules are clear. Step 1 of the attack process (which applies to all attacks, by both ships and squadrons) is to choose a target and an attacking hull zone ("if any").

So you say that:

- Yes, the counter attack has a hull zone

And

- The attacking hull zone is chosen by the ship owner.

Or I understand you wrong.

7 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Interesting.

You have Admiral Ackbar, and an AFMK-IIA

You activate the Assault Frigate and you use Ackbar, because Ackbar Assault Frigate.

Your enemy can now bomb you in the Nose or Rear, even if you have QLTs , because you cannot Counter Attack.

... Have fun with this knowledge, Imperials.

How so?

Just now, Warlord Zepnick said:

How so?

By applying the Ackbar restriction on attacking hull zones when enemy bombers are attacking?

Yes. When you apply Ackbar, you, and I quote: "May only attack from its Left and Right Hull Zones This Round ."

The round does not end when its activation ends. Its the Round.

Ergo, once you have applied Ackbar, his restriction would apple - as we have stated many times in appropriate threads, a Counter attack is an attack.

And if you have an Enemy Bomber, say, in teh Squadron Phase, Bombing you while nestled up against your Front or Rear Hull Zone, out of Arc of either Side Zone, even if you have QLT's equipped - you cannot counter attack, as Counter attacks are attacks , and you cannot make them from your Front or Rear.

Interesting!

Can an Ackbar ship QLT before it activates?!

Ackbar wording leads one to think, yes it could. But does the fact you have already made attacks from Front/Rear hull zones prohibit Ackbar being selected for that round? tricksy!