I put here a question that came up in other thread:

Have counters from ships (due to QLT) a attacking hull zone?

Why this has sense? Because Devastator but not only. Obstruction for example.

My thoughts:

Against.

1. Counter is a squadron keyword and squadrons don't have hull zones.

2. Counter wording don't involve hull zones.

3. Counter doesn't use the anti squadron armament of the ships that do use hull zones even when the battery is the same for all hulls.

With less words: counter let you throw 1 blue die and just that.

In favor:

1. Counter is an attack and can be modified as per obstruction. We know that counters could be obstructed.

2. Obstruction is not possible without LoS.

3. LoS with ships is not possible without a hull. What reference are we taken from those counters in order to check obstruction.

With less words: we need to have a hull when countering in order to check obstruction. If we have attacking hull zone when countering with QLT then Devastator could work (of course as long as we are countering from the front hull zone and we didn't use Devastator before that round).

Consider the line of sight Reciprocal, and you're on to something.

... With squadron Attacks vs Hull and Counter vs Squadrons, its always going to be.

*It won't be in many ship-to-ship hull fights... But at least for the purposes of counter , LOS is Reciprocal... Until we get a Ship that has the ability to Counter against another Ship. That'd be weird, but, y'know, probably eventual.

My initial thought is, the defending hull zone is the attacking hull zone for QLT counter. But that could lead to situations where the attacking squadron is out of arc.

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

My initial thought is, the defending hull zone is the attacking hull zone for QLT counter. But that could lead to situations where the attacking squadron is out of arc.

I was trying to think of a scenario that would let that happen... But it won't... Not with the "Closest Point of the Squadron base" being the LOS "Dot".

TOTALLY can happen with Ships - like with the MC30 Double-Side-Arcing an ISD, for example...... But I think its Physically Impossible for Squadrons... The closest point of your base being your LOS dot, and having to hit the Hull Zone LOS Dot, means the line is always going to be Reciprocal, or you're crossing Hull-Zone borders on your attack, and thus, are denied.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

I was trying to think of a scenario that would let that happen... But it won't... Not with the "Closest Point of the Squadron base" being the LOS "Dot".

TOTALLY can happen with Ships - like with the MC30 Double-Side-Arcing an ISD, for example...... But I think its Physically Impossible for Squadrons... The closest point of your base being your LOS dot, and having to hit the Hull Zone LOS Dot, means the line is always going to be Reciprocal, or you're crossing Hull-Zone borders on your attack, and thus, are denied.

Arc, not LoS. Which, off the top of my head, is only significant for Devastator.

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

Arc, not LoS. Which, off the top of my head, is only significant for Devastator.

Well, sure. Don't shoot Devestator in the nose and its nose won't shoot you back.

Being shot in the Rear shouldn't let you Devestator them to pieces in return.

The Simple call - Calling it Reciprocal (your defending zone is your counter attack zone) solves all the Problems this time. For Once

So you both say we HAVE a countering hull zone and this zone is the defender one right?

Just now, ovinomanc3r said:

So you both say we HAVE a countering hull zone and this zone is the defender one right?

That's my opinion, at the very least.

Just now, Drasnighta said:

That's my opinion, at the very least.

That was my thought too but I was not sure. With this question being possible since wave 2 I thought I was missing something huge as it never came up before or at least I didn't see it.

I freely admit, I just assumed it.

If LOS was being checked for an attack, you have to have a hull zone and consequently its LOS dot to measure from...

So I assumed it and never considered it a "Problem".

Well, there are only a few squads that can still attack ships if they are obstructed, like the Fire Spray or Gold. At that point, I'd say the counter is also obstructed since LOS goes both ways. In regards to what arc is returning fire, I don't think there is one. You just get counter 1 at range 1.

I'm not sure. That seems like the right answer from a native reading, but it carries arc issues with it. The only other option even remotely suggested is that the attack has no arc, which works universally but leaves the LoS question unanswered unless you accept the reciprocal approach Dras suggested.

So... Eh, not sure where I stand on it. In practice, I pretty much assume the counter shot comes back along the same line of fire that the original attack followed.

Occam's razor, man. Its the simplest explanation, and has the benefit of being, really, the only way that answers all of the issues

Of course, if you're Devestatoring in a big way on a single Counter-Attack... You probably deserve to do something before you die... because you'r enot doing it to a ship, and you have lost all of those tokens...

So sure.

Would be another deal entirely if Devestator had no limit, or even a Frangible limit like Dominator.

4 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

At that point, I'd say the counter is also obstructed since LOS goes both ways.

This is not true.

The fact that we can't counter ships attack doesn't matter. LoS doesn't go both ways. Probably it doesn't mean anything in this situation but IMHO it doesn't make what you said a valid point.

No, I'm on board with that, Dras, it just leaves you with the possibility of the attacking squadron being out of arc for the counter, which seems... Unintended.

2 minutes ago, ovinomanc3r said:

This is not true.

The fact that we can't counter ships attack doesn't matter. LoS doesn't go both ways. Probably it doesn't mean anything in this situation but IMHO it doesn't make what you said a valid point.

I don't think there's a scenario where the attacking squadron could have LoS but the defending hull zone would not...

Just now, ovinomanc3r said:

This is not true.

The fact that we can't counter ships attack doesn't matter. LoS doesn't go both ways. Probably it doesn't mean anything in this situation but IMHO it doesn't make what you said a valid point.

LOS does go both ways. When you declare a ship attack, you follow 3 steps: Measure range, find LOS, and make sure it is in arc. You can make LOS whenever you want. The only time you don't have LOS is when you cross over an enemy hull, which means you always LOS to squads that attack you. You are combining LOS and being in arc as one rule and that is not how it is done.

Just now, Ardaedhel said:

No, I'm on board with that, Dras, it just leaves you with the possibility of the attacking squadron being out of arc for the counter, which seems... Unintended.

"The attacking squadron being out of arc for the counter"

Howso?

If you're equipping QLTs. You have Counter. Full Stop. Not "Counter from your Front Hull Zone" or anything like that. Effectively, you have counter from every hull zone by dint of taking QLTs.

The Devestator ADDITIONAL dice can only be used from the front, so it can only be used for front counters....

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

I don't think there's a scenario where the attacking squadron could have LoS but the defending hull zone would not...

Ciena Ree XD

I agree but I wanted to point that LoS doesn't go both ways as we know that could happen when two ships are shooting them.

Just now, ovinomanc3r said:

Ciena Ree XD

I agree but I wanted to point that LoS doesn't go both ways as we know that could happen when two ships are shooting them.

You have LOS, but its obstructed. There's a difference.

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

"The attacking squadron being out of arc for the counter"

Howso?

If you're equipping QLTs. You have Counter. Full Stop. Not "Counter from your Front Hull Zone" or anything like that. Effectively, you have counter from every hull zone by dint of taking QLTs.

The Devestator ADDITIONAL dice can only be used from the front, so it can only be used for front counters....

So the defender must choose a hull to perform the counter? Interesting...

1 minute ago, ovinomanc3r said:

So the defender must choose a hull to perform the counter? Interesting...

No no, The choice is made for you.

You have the capability of making it from every zone.

But only the target zone - the reciprocal zone - can do it.

Its like having Slaved Turrets. You can make the extra-die attack from any zone........ But only the attacking zone can make it.

Careful now.

Consider the situation pictured below - a squadron can totally have LoS on a hull zone which cannot make a valid attack on the squadron.

5 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

"The attacking squadron being out of arc for the counter"

Howso?

If you're equipping QLTs. You have Counter. Full Stop. Not "Counter from your Front Hull Zone" or anything like that. Effectively, you have counter from every hull zone by dint of taking QLTs.

The Devestator ADDITIONAL dice can only be used from the front, so it can only be used for front counters....

So, the ship choosing the countering arc is a whole other bag of marbles. If we're saying the attacked hull zone is the countering hull zone, you can just put the bomber in an adjacent arc positioned such that it still has LoS to the target arc.

I'll draw a picture later when I'm not in my phone, but this could actually matter.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

You have LOS, but its obstructed. There's a difference.

I think this was because undeadguy said that the squadrons that would attack a ship even obstructed can't be countered as long as the counter would obstructed because LoS gos both ways.

I think it is wrong. We can't do this assumption only cause right now there is nothing that play a role in this situation. The fact is that we have Ciena Ree and Jaina's light that make asymmetric situations even when both doesn't add anything here.

Counter is a new attack and we must check a new LoS. It could not change anything but both LoS are not the same.