1 hour ago, ShadoWarrior said:What really needs to happen is giving us an explanation for why Leia does not appear to have been trained by Luke. We know that she is Force-sensitive because Yoda said so in ESB, and Luke confirms it when he speaks to his sister on Endor (the night before he surrenders himself to Vader).
http://screenrant.com/star-wars-force-awakens-leia-jedi-jj-abrams/
2 minutes ago, Blackbird888 said:
Thanks for that, but it's still lame. She's too busy being a general? What nonsense. What about Madine, Antilles, Cracken, and Ackbar? Did they all get killed?
We saw Ackbar in TFA, so no. Yeah, I want a better explanation too.
Actually, I want Jacen and Jaina. (pre-Darth business.)
Since Ben is a Solo, rather than Luke (and Mara's) son per the EU, we'll never see the twins ... except in the Infinity that is now "Legends".
25 minutes ago, ShadoWarrior said:Thanks for that, but it's still lame. She's too busy being a general? What nonsense. What about Madine, Antilles, Cracken, and Ackbar? Did they all get killed?
Not really.
She's too busy being a general because she chose to do that over training to be a jedi.
She made her priorities and stuck to them.
Apparantly this born-and-bred politicians daughter that has been fighting politically and militarily to restore the republic for most of her life felt that continuing that struggle was more important than training to be some warrior monk in some secluded monastery.
Go figure...
(And your "there's others that can do that" reasoning is pretty lame. If she really thought like that, she wouldn't have been a part of the rebellion to start with.)
Edited by OddballE84 hours ago, TheMOELANDER said:So the German translation for Ep8 title was just released an BAM! It's plural!
So we have "Die Letzten Jedi" which is the same as the last Jedi, but in plural. Since this title is officially sanctioned by the Story Group, what do you make of this?
The most obvious is of course, that Rey will be trained as a Jedi.
The German title for "Return of the Jedi" is "Die Rückkehr der Jedi-Ritter" which means "The return of the jedi knights" - plural.
So, how many Jedi returned in RotJ? I only know of Luke.
Sure, you could argue that Anakin returned, but I don't agree with that. He redeemed himself, sure, but he died immediately after that.
So, in conclusion, I wouldn't put much stock in the german translation.
6 minutes ago, OddballE8 said:The German title for "Return of the Jedi" is "Die Rückkehr der Jedi-Ritter" which means "The return of the jedi knights" - plural.
So, how many Jedi returned in RotJ? I only know of Luke.
Sure, you could argue that Anakin returned, but I don't agree with that. He redeemed himself, sure, but he died immediately after that.
So, in conclusion, I wouldn't put much stock in the german translation.
Actually you're incorrect. Yes the translation back then was plural, but here is an important thing: If it was Return of the Jedi = Die Rückkehr des Jedi, it would mean a specific Jedi. But actually it was meant, that the Jedi as an organization/group were returning, as an idea. In such cases German takes use of the plural.
2 hours ago, ShadoWarrior said:What really needs to happen is giving us an explanation for why Leia does not appear to have been trained by Luke. We know that she is Force-sensitive because Yoda said so in ESB, and Luke confirms it when he speaks to his sister on Endor (the night before he surrenders himself to Vader).
Why do you assume she would want to be trained in the Force, or that she even has any interest in it at all? She's a politician and a military leader and we don't ever see her longing for another kind of life. There is no need for any further explanation.
I'm not assuming anything. And the way she spoke to Luke, before Luke told her she was his sister, indicated quite clearly that she admired Luke's abilities.
Being trained in certain aspects of the Force would make her a better leader. She certainly could have made good use of Influence to make the New Republic leadership (or lack thereof) more willing to listen to her. And that's just one example.
What, mind trick people into agreeing with her? That doesn't seem like something Leia would do.
Just because someone is really tall doesn't mean there needs to be an explanation for why they're not into basketball. People have different priorities.
This is a question that's answered by looking at the situation the movies present.
5 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:What, mind trick people into agreeing with her? That doesn't seem like something Leia would do.
Where in the canon does it ever say or show that Leia is a paragon of virtue?
Oh, and she needn't trick someone into agreeing with her. She could merely use to power to remove stubborn resistance to listening to her and give her argument a fair hearing. IOW, take someone who's close-minded and convince them to at least consider a different opinion.
I didn't claim anything about her virtue.
And we don't ever see anything like what you describe done in the movies by a force user, either.
Qui-gon attempting to convince Watto to accept Republic credits doesn't count, eh? That's exactly the sort of manipulation that Leia could have used against her opponents had she been trained in the Force.
Edited by ShadoWarrior3 hours ago, OddballE8 said:(And your "there's others that can do that" reasoning is pretty lame. If she really thought like that, she wouldn't have been a part of the rebellion to start with.)
Spot on. Remember that this is the same woman who in the middle of being rescued basically said "This rescue sucks," grabbed a blaster from one of her rescuers, and took charge.
This is not the kind of person who can stand to be secluded from the rest of the galaxy practicing meditation and emptying her mind. She had the same impatience as Luke, and less reason to need to address it as long as she wasn't training to use the Force.
3 hours ago, ShadoWarrior said:I'm not assuming anything. And the way she spoke to Luke, before Luke told her she was his sister, indicated quite clearly that she admired Luke's abilities.
Being trained in certain aspects of the Force would make her a better leader. She certainly could have made good use of Influence to make the New Republic leadership (or lack thereof) more willing to listen to her. And that's just one example.
Admiring someone's skills doesn't equate a desire to learn them. And wasn't she fighting against the kind of mentality that equates to 'they don't agree, I will make them agree'. After all, wasn't that exact example used in the prequels to show that Anakin was slipping towards the dark side?
ANAKIN: We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problems, agree what's in the best interests of all the people, and then do it.
PADME: That is exactly what we do. The trouble is that people don't wlways agree. In fact, they hardly ever do.
ANAKIN: Then they should be made to.
PADME: By whom? Who's going to make them?
ANAKIN: I don't know. Someone.
PADME: You?
ANAKIN: Of course not me.
PADME: But someone.
ANAKIN: Someone wise.
PADME: That sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me.
There's a vast difference between forcing someone to agree with you (the end of a negotiation) and persuading them to be open to a discussion (the beginning of a negotiation).
33 minutes ago, ShadoWarrior said:There's a vast difference between forcing someone to agree with you (the end of a negotiation) and forcing them to open to a discussion (the beginning of a negotiation).
This is closer to what Influence actually does. Leaving you with someone whose free will you just violated across the aisle staring at you in shock as they realize what you did.
I mean, in the end, it doesn't matter if what you want is the most reasonable thing in the world, mind controlling them into doing it is reprehensible and probably highly illegal in the Republic except under some very extenuating circumstances (i.e. protecting yourself or another, defusing what was going to be a violent situation, etc.). If the idea of mentally dominating others to get them to do what she wanted ever occurred to Leia...that probably made her shudder and dismiss that as being a very Vaderish thing to do.
You guys should really read Bloodlines. It covers Leia's choices and motivations post ROTJ far better than JJ did.
You don't seem to grasp the difference between altering someone's feelings just enough to remove unreasonable hostility (Influence basic power) and mind control (which inserts thoughts and/or controls specific actions, as per the Control upgrade, which also doesn't last very long and can be resisted).
1 minute ago, ghatt said:You guys should really read Bloodlines. It covers Leia's choices and motivations post ROTJ far better than JJ did.
I'll have to reread it. Been a few months. Thanks for the reminder.
8 minutes ago, ShadoWarrior said:You don't seem to grasp the difference between altering someone's feelings just enough to remove unreasonable hostility (Influence basic power) and mind control (which inserts thoughts and/or controls specific actions, as per the Control upgrade, which also doesn't last very long and can be resisted).
Even using the basic Influence power is like slipping a Prozac into someone's drink to "calm them down:" it's still immoral, dude. You are literally emotionally manipulating someone to (again) get them to do what you want them to do.
Edited by Benjan MerunaBut lying to them isn't "immoral"? Because Leia does lie whenever it suits her purpose. Lying is still manipulation. Just not done with drugs or magic. I'd also like to point out that the environment in which a politician works is filled with shades of gray, not absolute black and white which ignores such concepts as the greater good.
Speaking of the greater good, there are a great many canon instances of Jedi doing what some might consider "immoral" in the service of the greater good. Ends do sometimes justify the means.
6 hours ago, ShadoWarrior said:Qui-gon attempting to convince Watto to accept Republic credits doesn't count, eh? That's exactly the sort of manipulation that Leia could have used against her opponents had she been trained in the Force.
That's also mind-tricking.
1 hour ago, ShadoWarrior said:But lying to them isn't "immoral"? Because Leia does lie whenever it suits her purpose. Lying is still manipulation. Just not done with drugs or magic. I'd also like to point out that the environment in which a politician works is filled with shades of gray, not absolute black and white which ignores such concepts as the greater good.
Speaking of the greater good, there are a great many canon instances of Jedi doing what some might consider "immoral" in the service of the greater good. Ends do sometimes justify the means.
You don't see the difference between slipping someone a roofie vs just talking with them?
3 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:You don't see the difference between slipping someone a roofie vs just talking with them?
I see a difference between slipping someone a rufie and a Prozac. Though a better analogy is injecting someone with scopolamine (a mind-control drug) versus Prozac (an antidepressant).