It seems as though many folks are not particularly enamored with Phantoms. I've been thinking about what good uses could be made of them. The way I see "Cloak" is that it gives you the opportunity to make the final squadron position adjustment of the round. It appears to be useful when the positioning of your opponent's squadrons is delicate (eg. Intel, Nora Wexley, FCTs, Rhymer, etc...). Cloak gives you the ability to wreck your opponent's masterfully-positioned squadron ball.

Generally, I am thinking to use a Phantom or two to harass or disorganize a well-crafted squadron group. In some sense, they would be sacrificed. For instance, one might engage part of a bomber group from beyond an Intel bubble to blunt their attack. The Phantom may go down, but it doesn't go down trivially since it has 4 hull: you need to dedicate some resources if you want to be sure it goes away.

So it seems like making a small investment in this ability to harass enemy squadrons could disrupt your opponent's ability to make the "perfect squadron move." And that has some use if you're going with a minimal fighter screen to maximize the power of your capital ships.

A smallish fighter screen: Howlrunner, 2 Interceptors, a Phantom, and an Advanced. 62 points. Heavy hitters, mixed in with a bit of staying power, and some flexibility in the form of a Phantom.

Thoughts?

Right now the best way I could see them is assassins that can get past Counter/Escort YT-1300s. Problem is that they don't have any defense. IMHO cloak should have been a defensive token that allows you to do a move as well as a defensive bonus. The only thing cloak does is keeps you from getting tied up but we already got grit and intel for that.

Phantoms have 3 things against them that make no sense.

1) They are underpowered. Phantoms have pretty gnarly guns, yet theyre identical to Xwings in this game for some reason. They should have been a 5blue or have black mixed in.
2) "Cloak" seems like a Han Solo perk to me. The idea is to dive in last, shoot, then skirt off before they can retaliate w/o burning a squad activation. Problem is Phantoms dont have Rogue, using squad activation on them is way too early, and imps have no way to pass rogue off (i.e. no Hera).
3) "Cloak" isnt very cloak-y. Even in Xwing cloak impacts the ability of the attacker to hit you, just like every other scifi flick out there cloak is used to make the enemy unable to spot you until youre right on them or make you hard to lock onto at a distance. It should have reflected that by denying anything further than range1, including ships' AA dice. Dunno how many times i just sniped the Phantoms dead, which makes 0 sense.

What little they do Defenders do better. For 2 more points you get +1hull, 5speed, 2blu2black AA, and 1blue bomber instead of 2red nobomber against ships. Two measily point...if cloak did like i mentioned they'd be equal to me.

Which makes me sad because its easily my favorite ship in Xwing and i hate the dang thing in Armada

I feel like they have some kind of home not as a ship-of-the-line Squadron but as support role.

Take a flight controllers Vic and launch 3 advanced and two phantoms. Then bounce the phantoms back at end of squad phase so they are not engaged. Activate them again with that VSD to jump and target a priority squad. The advanced would be bogged down. Now, I'm not sure how that results in better performance than intel or Chiraneau, but it's an idea.

They do more average damage to ships than defenders. Can disengage and bomb in the end game. Guaranteed heal on the station, grav well it to a good position. Can move back into activation range. Whisper can brace to 1 damage, use the move on the station to heal. Some annoying things they do.

17 minutes ago, Xeletor said:

They do more average damage to ships than defenders. Can disengage and bomb in the end game. Guaranteed heal on the station, grav well it to a good position. Can move back into activation range. Whisper can brace to 1 damage, use the move on the station to heal. Some annoying things they do.

And they may "only" be speed 4, but their speed 1 re-position kind of makes them faster than speed 5.

Whisper is pretty decent.

They're 2 Points more than an X-Wing.

+ They move Faster
+ They Hit Just as Hard in Anti-Squadron
+ They Hit Harder in Anti-Ship
+ Because they're Imperial, they have *easier* access to the Extra (Flight Controllers) Die.
+ Because they're Imperial, they can access the "Vector" Speed Boost for even more speed.
+ They lack Escort, for their own Protection
+ Their Cloak Move, if they survive at the end, its all totally gravy...

The cost, beyond the 2 Points? 1 Hull.

Now, if they were 3 Hull, I'd be saying something about them just popping to 1 shots... But I find that, when it comes to hull, 4 is that Magic Point where you can assume a Squadron will most often than not, survive more than a single Hit... 3 Hull? Average-ish Rolling for a couple of Squadrons takes them out. 4 Hulls where is gets good.

I really do feel, having watched Massed Phantoms in action... That if you consider the Phantom a Sub-Par Squadron, its only because you're spoiled for Choice...

I only wish cloak worked at the start of the squadron phase rather than the end.

Just now, TallGiraffe said:

I only wish cloak worked at the start of the squadron phase rather than the end.

I'd be for it. If it added, like, 10 points to them

3 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:

Phantoms have 3 things against them that make no sense.

1) They are underpowered. Phantoms have pretty gnarly guns, yet theyre identical to Xwings in this game for some reason. They should have been a 5blue or have black mixed in.
2) "Cloak" seems like a Han Solo perk to me. The idea is to dive in last, shoot, then skirt off before they can retaliate w/o burning a squad activation. Problem is Phantoms dont have Rogue, using squad activation on them is way too early, and imps have no way to pass rogue off (i.e. no Hera).
3) "Cloak" isnt very cloak-y. Even in Xwing cloak impacts the ability of the attacker to hit you, just like every other scifi flick out there cloak is used to make the enemy unable to spot you until youre right on them or make you hard to lock onto at a distance. It should have reflected that by denying anything further than range1, including ships' AA dice. Dunno how many times i just sniped the Phantoms dead, which makes 0 sense.

What little they do Defenders do better. For 2 more points you get +1hull, 5speed, 2blu2black AA, and 1blue bomber instead of 2red nobomber against ships. Two measily point...if cloak did like i mentioned they'd be equal to me.

Which makes me sad because its easily my favorite ship in Xwing and i hate the dang thing in Armada

Yet, they're also Rebel: which means no rerolls whatsoever. No Tory, no swarm for Howl.

1 hour ago, TallGiraffe said:

I only wish cloak worked at the start of the squadron phase rather than the end.

Oh my gods, yes please! =). This would be so fun!

They have crap defenses too, so its not a balance issue.

Actually, I might try and house rule it that way and do some test games!

--

All in all though, esp lack of reroll makes them suffer, but they are basically appropriately costed, and have two nice red dice for battery. Opposite of Defenders basically: Defenders are great AA, only so so Battery. Phantoms are great battery, so so AA.

I will now try them to be pseudo bombers. Flight controlled pseudo bombers for attacking fleets. Probably less efficient than mass bomber lists, but heck, it sounds great fun.

I used 3 TIE Phantoms+Whisper last night along with a TIE Advanced and Zertik.

Worked fine, actually. I've used Whisper before and she's always been amazing. The regular Phantoms have some use too, though. They seem to be much better as second player because you get to control where the station is set up, and TIE Phantoms love the station, so set it up near where you're expecting the dogfight to happen. Between their Escorts and Cloak, they can avoid getting focused down too quickly and their Cloak move allows them to bounce back on the station to heal (this is absolutely frustrating with Whisper, by the way - 2 damage incoming, braced to 1, move on the station, it's healed - no damage taken effectively). I also like the 2 red anti-ship as a way to harass ships (it's not reliable but...) for the same average damage (1) as a regular TIE Bomber with no extra help but in a more flexible package. They definitely need Escorts, though.

I'll be playing them some more on and off in the next few weeks. I want to write an article on them for Cannot Get Your Ship Out once I have the hang of them and it seems like a lot of folks have not even put them on the table because they're convinced they're bad without even trying them.

the issue with phantoms are they are not interceptors.

All the things that make phantoms better like flight controllers make interceptors better. interceptors also benefit from howlrunner and dengar for 6 dice on the attack and counter 4....

point for point the interceptor is still the supreme Imperial fighter. It hits about its weight class and can typically trade very favorably with enemy squadrons.

Phantoms do seem cool to play but id honestly rather have interceptors or defenders.

Phantoms are good only if your opponent didn't bring Squadron commands, and has no rogue. Otherwise you're better off using one of the more specialized Squadrons.

That said, I'm sure if someone retreated to a secluded cave to engage in secret training they could emerge with an amazing Rhymer/Phantom Ball that used cloak like a truffle to protect the yummy chocolate center.

4 minutes ago, FourDogsInaHorseSuit said:

Phantoms are good only if your opponent didn't bring Squadron commands, and has no rogue. Otherwise you're better off using one of the more specialized Squadrons.

That said, I'm sure if someone retreated to a secluded cave to engage in secret training they could emerge with an amazing Rhymer/Phantom Ball that used cloak like a truffle to protect the yummy chocolate center.

Phantom of the Rhymerball is something ive toyed with in theory

19 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

the issue with phantoms are they are not interceptors.

All the things that make phantoms better like flight controllers make interceptors better. interceptors also benefit from howlrunner and dengar for 6 dice on the attack and counter 4....

point for point the interceptor is still the supreme Imperial fighter. It hits about its weight class and can typically trade very favorably with enemy squadrons.

Phantoms do seem cool to play but id honestly rather have interceptors or defenders.

It's not the issue, it's a feature. Phantom is a mix between TIE Interceptor and TIE Bomber: damage output to the ships is similar to TIE Bomber, damage output to sqaudrons is similar to TIE Interceptor, however he can't use buffs that these ships can (BCC, Howlrunner)

Just now, pt106 said:

It's not the issue, it's a feature. Phantom is a mix between TIE Interceptor and TIE Bomber: damage output to the ships is similar to TIE Bomber, damage output to sqaudrons is similar to TIE Interceptor, however he can't use buffs that these ships can (BCC, Howlrunner)

also 3pts more.

4 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

also 3pts more.

A price of flexibility. YT2400 is 16.

1 minute ago, pt106 said:

A price of flexibility. YT2400 is 16.

i get it. the bigger issue is that interceptors are just undercosted/my favorite TIE ship

3 hours ago, BergerFett said:

i get it. the bigger issue is that interceptors are just undercosted/my favorite TIE ship

Have you gotten good milage out of them? I find 3 hits they tend to go down faster than I'd like. =/.

And they loathe any sort of flak AA fire. So doing alpha strikes into enemy territory is difficult.

Interceptors just melt for me. Ive had no luck keeping them alive, 2die ship AA batteries is usually enough to render them useless outright or severely hamper their odds of surviving an attack from a squad. Often i only get 1 counter, and its the attack that killed me. Awings +1 hull lets me get 2 usually.

I favor Interceptors when I play Imps, and while they do melt like... uh... butter? On a... hot... thing? I've still always felt that I got a lot of value out of them.

I really want to like Phantoms, but yeah, I also really wish they had a "better" or more clearly thematic ability.

4 minutes ago, Greatfrito said:

I really want to like Phantoms, but yeah, I also really wish they had a "better" or more clearly thematic ability.

I would've much preferred that they all subtracted one die from any attacks made against them (so it would stack with obstruction) to function as "dodge tanks," which would have felt more appropriate for an ability that involves disappearing when convenient.

To repeat my earlier post: thus far I've had some success with them and I'll be playing with them a bit more to kind of suss out how I feel about them (and it doesn't seem like anyone who complains about them has ever actually played them, confusingly) and I have played several games with Whisper, who I can hands-down recommend with no other real qualifications. She's expensive, but she is quite difficult to really put down or pin down due to her great defense token suite, special ability, and Cloak. She just teleports around all over the place being consistently annoying. It's great.

10 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

I would've much preferred that they all subtracted one die from any attacks made against them (so it would stack with obstruction) to function as "dodge tanks," which would have felt more appropriate for an ability that involves disappearing when convenient.

too powerful. just making them count as obstructive would have been fine but they would to most likely be 1 to 2 pts more.

51 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Have you gotten good milage out of them? I find 3 hits they tend to go down faster than I'd like. =/.

And they loathe any sort of flak AA fire. So doing alpha strikes into enemy territory is difficult.

at 11pts I do not care if they die. X-wings cost more than them. I found with howlrunner, dengar, and flight controllers they were insanely effective. i played it in wave 2/3 with 2x isd and rhymer.

6 blue on the way in, counter 4 is scary for all enemy squadrons. Having enemies not even engage or run because they dont want to seed points is a good feeling.

My squadrons were never meant to survive. my Interceptors would intercept high priority targets and eliminate it. 6 interceptors over 2 commands would usually be enough to bring down jann and another ace or 2 and then its counter 4. That was killing jann after making her use every single brace. Rhymer was there cuz gallant haven was popular for a bit.

that is/was my issue with rhymer bomber balls, you want them to live to get work out of them. Blue dice have a 50% for damage on ships I used rhymer for threat projection and to draw the enemy fighters out of the safety of their ships and their ships AA fire.

watching your opponents face as you drop Counter 4 swarm though.... those tears were so salty they found some scrolls