Despite being over costed it is also in a faction that seems more focused on large base or hit and run unique ships with amazing titles, nothing which the Starviper currently offers.

Scum have the best crew options and the Viper cannot accommodate any.

It has decent raw stats and actions but nothing the Protectarate can't do for cheaper and in some cases, much better:
PS3 has an EPT
PS5 generic with EPT
PS6 gains two focus tokens when performing a red move (would of been nice on a Star Viper)
PS7 with EPT and removes tokens
PS9 with EPT, essentially the Apollo Creed of Xwing, hits hard, consistent but just isn't there for the return.

The Viper can't match that.

Put the Viper on the Imperial side and it still suffers, can't match Interceptors, Inquisitor, Vader or Defenders. Rebels? Main contender is an A wing, which is cheaper and arguably has a better dial but then its not a regenerating ship nor does it drop bombs or bring a turret, which are rebel staples right now.

So i think if there is going to be a "fix" even white sloops wouldn't do it. You would need a PS6 and PS9 pilot that would be able to bring something to the table that makes you NOT want to bring Fenn, Manaroo, Ketsu, Asajj, Bossk, Old Teroch, Unkarr Plutt, etc, etc, etc.

Additionally, there is mindlink to consider.

If you wanted to put StarVipers at the top of the list, you would need to:
Reduce point cost by 3
Give System and Illicit as standard
Title - "StarViper-class attack platform " (or something): 1 point
Whenever you acquire a target lock, you may perform a free evade action

Discord Missile - 2 points - Attack 3
Star Viper Only
Attack: (Target Lock): Discard this card and your target lock to perform this attack. If the attack hits, assign a buzz droid token to the defender.

Pistoeka sabotage droids:
A ship assigned one or more buzz droid tokens suffers the following effect at the beginning of the combat phase. Droid tokens remain until the defender resolves an action to remove a token.
1 token: Roll an attack dice, suffer any hit results rolled.
2 tokens: Roll an attack dice, suffer any hit or critical damage rolled and receive a stress token
3 tokens: Suffer one hit and receive a stress and ion token.
4 tokens: Suffer one critical damage and receive a stress, ion token and a weapons disabled token.

The ship assigned a buzz droid token may spend an action during their activation phase to remove a buzz droid token.

The Black Sun Enforcer pays a 5 point premium over the Zealous Recruit for a single shield and WAY worse dial. (Protectorate with Starviper dial would be basically unplayable. Starviper with Protectorate dial is... intriguing.) Considering the Zealous recruit is not really seen much, I would say the generic Starvipers are at least four points too expensive.

Question about the Starviper design: do those flowered out solar panels do anything special? They seem like something that would be incredibly efficient at power draw compared to other ships since they move. Perhaps a perk involving them might give the Viper a unique bite.

15 minutes ago, Viktus106 said:

Despite being over costed it is also in a faction that seems more focused on large base or hit and run unique ships with amazing titles, nothing which the Starviper currently offers.

Scum have the best crew options and the Viper cannot accommodate any.

It has decent raw stats and actions but nothing the Protectarate can't do for cheaper and in some cases, much better:
PS3 has an EPT
PS5 generic with EPT
PS6 gains two focus tokens when performing a red move (would of been nice on a Star Viper)
PS7 with EPT and removes tokens
PS9 with EPT, essentially the Apollo Creed of Xwing, hits hard, consistent but just isn't there for the return.

The Viper can't match that.

Put the Viper on the Imperial side and it still suffers, can't match Interceptors, Inquisitor, Vader or Defenders. Rebels? Main contender is an A wing, which is cheaper and arguably has a better dial but then its not a regenerating ship nor does it drop bombs or bring a turret, which are rebel staples right now.

So i think if there is going to be a "fix" even white sloops wouldn't do it. You would need a PS6 and PS9 pilot that would be able to bring something to the table that makes you NOT want to bring Fenn, Manaroo, Ketsu, Asajj, Bossk, Old Teroch, Unkarr Plutt, etc, etc, etc.

Additionally, there is mindlink to consider.

If you wanted to put StarVipers at the top of the list, you would need to:
Reduce point cost by 3
Give System and Illicit as standard
Title - "StarViper-class attack platform " (or something): 1 point
Whenever you acquire a target lock, you may perform a free evade action

Discord Missile - 2 points - Attack 3
Star Viper Only
Attack: (Target Lock): Discard this card and your target lock to perform this attack. If the attack hits, assign a buzz droid token to the defender.

Pistoeka sabotage droids:
A ship assigned one or more buzz droid tokens suffers the following effect at the beginning of the combat phase. Droid tokens remain until the defender resolves an action to remove a token.
1 token: Roll an attack dice, suffer any hit results rolled.
2 tokens: Roll an attack dice, suffer any hit or critical damage rolled and receive a stress token
3 tokens: Suffer one hit and receive a stress and ion token.
4 tokens: Suffer one critical damage and receive a stress, ion token and a weapons disabled token.

The ship assigned a buzz droid token may spend an action during their activation phase to remove a buzz droid token.

All true. The only thing is that Guri fit pretty well with Attanni. She is a focus generator.

2 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

The Black Sun Enforcer pays a 5 point premium over the Zealous Recruit for a single shield and WAY worse dial. (Protectorate with Starviper dial would be basically unplayable. Starviper with Protectorate dial is... intriguing.) Considering the Zealous recruit is not really seen much, I would say the generic Starvipers are at least four points too expensive.

Way you say worse?

6 hours ago, X Wing Nut said:

"when will Rebels get a ship that can turn around and not take stress?"

They have at least 3. Ello Asty, Rey with Kanan, and Hobbie with Targeting Astromech.

2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

They have at least 3. Ello Asty, Rey with Kanan, and Hobbie with Targeting Astromech.

Nien Nunb in a knife-fight.

9 minutes ago, Cerve said:

All true. The only thing is that Guri fit pretty well with Attanni. She is a focus generator.

Way you say worse?

Starviper gets a green 1 straight and banks which, admittedly, can be pretty useful. Howerver, the Starviper loses 3 turns, 5 straight and the 4K turn. I would call that a wash. YMMV.

The Starviper has 3 S-loops instead of 2 T-rolls. I would say these are just about even. (Especially because the 4K allows the Protectorate to turn around if its immediate neighborhood gets too crowded.)

The reason I say WAAAAAY worse is the Protectorate gets all of its speed 2 maneuvers in green including green 2-turns. That is a big BIG deal.

1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

Starviper gets a green 1 straight and banks which, admittedly, can be pretty useful. Howerver, the Starviper loses 3 turns, 5 straight and the 4K turn. I would call that a wash. YMMV.

The Starviper has 3 S-loops instead of 2 T-rolls. I would say these are just about even. (Especially because the 4K allows the Protectorate to turn around if its immediate neighborhood gets too crowded.)

The reason I say WAAAAAY worse is the Protectorate gets all of its speed 2 maneuvers in green including green 2-turns. That is a big BIG deal.

But the green doesn't matter unitl you play PTL or (way less) Mindlink. Anyway I can agree with your argumentations....but I was thinking that as a blocker, I prefer the 1 set maneuvers full. In fact, I will see the PS1 Viper a better blocker than the PS1 Protectorate (who becomes a way better jouster with the title).

The problem is that if I want a nice blocker, for that cost I will take the Jumpmaster! Adaptability, and one crew slot plus the Jump ship itself....****, it is the best blocker in game. A shame that no one play it in that way.

Hope to see the Viper fix this summer

25 minutes ago, Cerve said:

But the green doesn't matter unitl you play PTL or (way less) Mindlink.

Or you did a red maneuver. Or flew over a debris field. Or took a Thrust Control Fire crit. Or your opponent stressed you somehow. There's plenty of ways to get stressed in the game bsides PTL and mindlink. And being able to do a hard turn after getting stressed in other ways is still a big deal.

green maneuvers are powerful in a vast amount of ways, not just PTL.

Any idea how badly Defenders wish they had a green bank if they get slapped with a stress? Way way too often theyre forced to take Mk2 because destressing them w/o that usually means they go a turn without a shot and GET shot in the process. Or white 4k and just continue the fight w/o actions.

Yeah, the lack of greens make the choice to s-loop real tough - you really have to know exactly where you (and you opponents) need to be the turn after to commit to it.

Though the feeling of landing the boost-into-sloop is mostly worth it.

I'm a little late to the party but it seems questionable to 'prove' the starviper isn't overcosted by a formula you've figured out based on how ffg prices things. The starviper costing approximately what ffg costs the stat line at doesn't actually mean anything, especially when they've historically been completely awful at pricing heavy superiority brawlers, see e-wing, defender sans fix, and starviper all being too expensive.

The thing about green maneuvers is true

1 hour ago, nigeltastic said:

I'm a little late to the party but it seems questionable to 'prove' the starviper isn't overcosted by a formula you've figured out based on how ffg prices things. The starviper costing approximately what ffg costs the stat line at doesn't actually mean anything, especially when they've historically been completely awful at pricing heavy superiority brawlers, see e-wing, defender sans fix, and starviper all being too expensive.

For the record, I found E-Wings and pre-fix Defenders to both be 3 points over their stat lines.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, I never said Starvipers aren't overcosted. In fact, I 100% agree that they are. I think the disagreement is over "how much." The formula I use works for literally every ship in the game with extremely high (and in most cases perfect) accuracy when you compare it to official prices. It's accurate. Whether you believe their formula may need tweaking is an entirely different story, and my analysis actually supports that it is highly likely that FFG DID make a blunder by not having an intermediary "glass cannon bonus" for many squishier 2-AGI ships. The T-65, TIE/SF, HWK-290 w/turret, and Kihraxz all fall into this small category. Notice a trend? It is entirely possible that the Starviper is entitled to this partial bonus as well. I didn't mention that before because while I am 100% confident in the accuracy of the formula relative to official pricing, my theory on middle defense ships with 2 or 3 agility is mostly speculation backed strongly by consistent (but subjective) data.

Assuming you ARE right about FFG's formula not aligning with perfectly balanced costs (and I'm inclined to agree with you), then the Starviper went from being ~0.50-0.75pts overcosted (according to FFG's currently used formula and rules) to ~1-2pts overcosted (once you include half the price of utility glass cannons usually get).

You see... for me, it's not good enough to just say that the Starviper or any other ship is over or underpowered by whatever amount. I want to know exactly WHY. That's the question that most people seem to glance over, and the answer to that "WHY" I can give you is the exact same answer as to why the T-65, TIE/SF, HWK-290, and Kihraxz all feel on the weak side. I'm not just popping numbers out of my ass or based on a gut feeling (like most people). I am saying that the reasoning for the Starviper being ~1-2 points overcosted would be consistent with the reasoning for exactly how much extra love the T-65, TIE/SF, HWK-290, and Kihraxz all need.

34 minutes ago, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

For the record, I found E-Wings and pre-fix Defenders to both be 3 points over their stat lines.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, I never said Starvipers aren't overcosted. In fact, I 100% agree that they are. I think the disagreement is over "how much." The formula I use works for literally every ship in the game with extremely high (and in most cases perfect) accuracy when you compare it to official prices. It's accurate. Whether you believe their formula may need tweaking is an entirely different story, and my analysis actually supports that it is highly likely that FFG DID make a blunder by not having an intermediary "glass cannon bonus" for many squishier 2-AGI ships. The T-65, TIE/SF, HWK-290 w/turret, and Kihraxz all fall into this small category. Notice a trend? It is entirely possible that the Starviper is entitled to this partial bonus as well. I didn't mention that before because while I am 100% confident in the accuracy of the formula relative to official pricing, my theory on middle defense ships with 2 or 3 agility is mostly speculation backed strongly by consistent (but subjective) data.

Assuming you ARE right about FFG's formula not aligning with perfectly balanced costs (and I'm inclined to agree with you), then the Starviper went from being ~0.50-0.75pts overcosted (according to FFG's currently used formula and rules) to ~1-2pts overcosted (once you include half the price of utility glass cannons usually get).

You see... for me, it's not good enough to just say that the Starviper or any other ship is over or underpowered by whatever amount. I want to know exactly WHY. That's the question that most people seem to glance over, and the answer to that "WHY" I can give you is the exact same answer as to why the T-65, TIE/SF, HWK-290, and Kihraxz all feel on the weak side. I'm not just popping numbers out of my ass or based on a gut feeling (like most people). I am saying that the reasoning for the Starviper being ~1-2 points overcosted would be consistent with the reasoning for exactly how much extra love the T-65, TIE/SF, HWK-290, and Kihraxz all need.

A lot of game design requires exponential hikes in pricing. Individual traits such as attack die usually include a native exponential hike, but the unit itself has an exponential hike as it becomes more of a "total package".

Let's presume we have our design team's unit pricing in front of us. An Y-Wing dial costs -1 points, an X-Wing costs 0 points, and an A-Wing dial costs 1 point. Say 1 attack die costs 1 point, 2 attack dice cost 3, and 3 attack dice cost 5, and 4 attack dice cost 7. Agility 0 costs 0, 1 costs 1, agility 2 costs 2, agility 3 costs 4. Hull costs 1 points per, and shields cost 1.5 points per. Let's also presume for the sake of convenience that all upgrade icons and action icons cost 1 point. Pilot skill follows usual pricing, 0.5 points per 1 PS, etc.

Rebuilding the A-Wing under that pricing, a prototype A-Wing costs 18 points, so this example is not too far off. But let's now build an overkill ship the hypothetical pricing. We're working on the "Q-Wing". We decide we want 4 attack and 3 agility, because of course we do. This costs 11. We also want 3 hull and 3 shield, to give it longevity. This costs 10. Throw on Focus, Target Lock, Boost, and Evade for 4 points, and EPT, Astromech, Crew, and Systems for another 3. Finally, we want an A-Wing dial for PTL lovers. Our ship now costs a total of 30 points at PS2. If we're amateurs, we now release this ship to the public―and now all rebel players are fielding at least 1 Q-Wing with PTL, R2-D2, Autothrusters, and crew and systems of their choice. If we're using FFG's card requirement rule, we're stuck with it in every meta.

So let's presume we do a few more months of playtesting and find out this combo of abilities is too great, and we hike the Q-Wing's price up to by 10 points. Will people still use the Q-Wing? Probably, yes, even at 40 points. But the Q-Wing's price needed to reflect its total potential value before release. (This is of course why "Punishing One" costs 12 points, and yet players are still happy to pay for it. This is also why PS9 Poe costs 33, instead of 32.) Of course, FFG isn't that unsophisticated, so the margin of error we are talking here on cards like the StarViper is 1 or 2 points, not 10.

In any case, this is not the first time that they have shot themselves in the foot with the printed card pricing. By wave 12, the best thing for X-Wing would be is to issue a codex featuring price adjustments on old upgrade cards and pilot cards for tournament use, and post an official Squadron Builder where the current pricing is gospel.

13 hours ago, WWHSD said:

They have at least 3. Ello Asty, Rey with Kanan, and Hobbie with Targeting Astromech.

True but its not white on there dials. kind of surprised no one has started a topic about it already?

On 16.2.2017 at 8:55 PM, PhantomFO said:

Would it break anything if there was a System upgrade that turned your Segnor's Loops white?

Offhand, this would affect the Virago, Aggressor and TIE/sf. It also carries a pretty sizable drawback, as it locks you out of Fire Control Systems.

If you wanted to keep this exclusive to StarVipers, then the easiest solution would be to have it be a Torpedo upgrade a la Chardaan Refit.

Now that thing can really turn. (Poe's comment on the TIE/sf)

16 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

Starviper gets a green 1 straight and banks which, admittedly, can be pretty useful. Howerver, the Starviper loses 3 turns, 5 straight and the 4K turn. I would call that a wash. YMMV.

The Starviper has 3 S-loops instead of 2 T-rolls. I would say these are just about even. (Especially because the 4K allows the Protectorate to turn around if its immediate neighborhood gets too crowded.)

The reason I say WAAAAAY worse is the Protectorate gets all of its speed 2 maneuvers in green including green 2-turns. That is a big BIG deal.

The deal lessens a lot when your list is mindlink, it is enormous big deal pre-mindlink because you really wanted to use PTL on a ship like the protectorate or viper, but with mindlink that urge is gone for scum. Now the generic vipers don't have EPTs and are useless either way
Hmm. Maybe I should try Fenn Rau, Guri and Manaroo ... does this fit? I don't think so.

Unless you want the starviper to be the ship that focuses that round. A green turn is an amazing thing to have. Period.

I have tried to make Guri work in many different lists, it is just to expensive at 40 points or close there to making her work mostly effectively.

I think that if all the ships were dropped by 2 points it would make the over all game better because more option would present themselves instead of taking 3 decent ships and have only 8 points to put on upgrades to them.

21 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Unless you want the starviper to be the ship that focuses that round. A green turn is an amazing thing to have. Period.

Than you just move PS5 Guri first, do a white turn, focus, do your red turns with the other ships. Or even better, just boost into Range 1 and hand the focus out at the start of the combat phase, if you happen to not have init even protected from Teroch/Palob ;-)

It is really not a big deal.

For making Guri work. Palob, Guri, Manaroo, all mindlink, Sensor Jammers on Guri. Flies like a charm, bring here a little less offense than the adaption which replaced Guri with Rau, but brings a lot more defense and makes it easier to feed double focus to Palob for double damage from his TLT.

58 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Than you just move PS5 Guri first, do a white turn, focus, do your red turns with the other (one) ships. Or even better, just boost into Range 1 and hand the focus out at the start of the combat phase, if you happen to not have init even protected from Teroch/Palob ;-)

It is really not a big deal.

For making Guri work. Palob, Guri, Manaroo, all mindlink, Sensor Jammers on Guri. Flies like a charm, bring here a little less offense than the adaption which replaced Guri with Rau, but brings a lot more defense and makes it easier to feed double focus to Palob for double damage from his TLT.

Guri Palob Mana is old, and doesn't work so much. Nice for friendly game thought

On 2/17/2017 at 11:14 PM, SEApocalypse said:

Now that thing can really turn. (Poe's comment on the TIE/sf)

The deal lessens a lot when your list is mindlink, it is enormous big deal pre-mindlink because you really wanted to use PTL on a ship like the protectorate or viper, but with mindlink that urge is gone for scum. Now the generic vipers don't have EPTs and are useless either way
Hmm. Maybe I should try Fenn Rau, Guri and Manaroo ... does this fit? I don't think so.

It fits. I actually built that....last night ort his morning. The problem is as much as I love the starviper....you're gonna do better with Asajj or a party bus

20 hours ago, Cerve said:

Guri Palob Mana is old, and doesn't work so much. Nice for friendly game thought

Or making the cut in the german nationals last year iirc

@KettchGER got a 5th last year's lothal open and a 15ths in the german nationals. This should have been before the protectorate fighter, Fenn Rau is a rather good replacement for Guri. My best tournament placements are as well with that list.

Why not errata the Virago Title to state "treat your segnor's loops maneuvers as white".?

It'd be at least a fix that can be done with just a FAQ update, though it would be better if generics also could have the update.

On 17/02/2017 at 11:10 PM, Viktus106 said:

Despite being over costed it is also in a faction that seems more focused on large base or hit and run unique ships with amazing titles, nothing which the Starviper currently offers.

Scum have the best crew options and the Viper cannot accommodate any.

The Viper can't match that.

Put the Viper on the Imperial side and it still suffers, can't match Interceptors, Inquisitor, Vader or Defenders. Rebels? Main contender is an A wing, which is cheaper and arguably has a better dial but then its not a regenerating ship nor does it drop bombs or bring a turret, which are rebel staples right now.

I think the closest ship to the Starviper is actually the good ole X-Wing herself. Dials are similar, stats similar. 25 points for a generic PS3 Viper and 23 points for a generic PS4 X-Wing, but the X-Wing can take an astromech and has 1 less agi.

I'm calling for a "Rebel Scum" pack that fixes the X-Wing and Starviper in one. (although I think if Integrated Astro was a title that would have been a decent fix.)