2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I saw the glass cannon bonus for the protectorate. That's why my comment was based on the 3 point difference of expected points, not the 20 vs 25 of actual costs. The ONLY thing the starviper has (discounting upgrades) over the protectorate is 1 shield. You don't pay as much for increased health built into a ship as you would to buy a hull or shield upgrade for the same ship . Especially when, if you add the title for the protectorate (putting it at 21 points), a single trigger of the title saving you a health is as good as the shield on the viper. And any subsequent triggers make it even better.

The underlined part... why? Please explain.

2 minutes ago, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

The underlined part... why? Please explain.

Lothal Rebel would be a 54 point ship just from the value of its hull and shields.

4 minutes ago, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

The underlined part... why? Please explain.

1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

Lothal Rebel would be a 54 point ship just from the value of its hull and shields.

What he said. As you already pointed out earlier, the upgrades have to be costed to not be overpowered on the lowest health optoins. An Interceptor gains a lot more from a shield than a ghost does. Even more, you have to ask how much that health adds to actual survivability. Look at a 21 point zealous recruit vs a 24 point starviper (using your expected values, ignoring the glass cannon bonus on the protecgtorate and the extra point for the sloop you calculated they used for the viper). Starviper has 1 extra health at 3 points more expensive. For those same 3 points, I could give the recruit both the title and autothrusters. It's now a vastly more survivable ship than he same-price naked starviper. I'd never run a naked point ps1 starviper when I could take an upgraded protectorate instead. Even more so with the actual 5 point difference we have in the game, which means I could have the same title+autothrusters protectorate and save 2 points over the naked starviper.

32 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Lothal Rebel would be a 54 point ship just from the value of its hull and shields.

How... I don't even... what?

No. That's all wrong. Hit points are worth more or less depending on the agility value of a ship. =/ Think RPG's or any game where you have a character with both hit points and armor values. You got to think in terms of "effective health."

27 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Look at a 21 point zealous recruit vs a 24 point starviper (using your expected values, ignoring the glass cannon bonus on the protecgtorate and the extra point for the sloop you calculated they used for the viper). Starviper has 1 extra health at 3 points more expensive. For those same 3 points, I could give the recruit both the title and autothrusters. It's now a vastly more survivable ship than he same-price naked starviper.

Aye... you guys. The formula is for bare naked ship stats only, and now you're factoring in upgrade cards which is a whole different can of worms. I NEVER SAID NOR IMPLIED that a naked Starviper is as good as a same price Zealous Recruit with title and Autothrusters. No, not even close. Without taking back anything I said, I can simultaneously agree with you here. Seriously, Autothrusters are one of the most overpowered cards in the game, so you can't use that as a basis for saying "so-and-so is better," even if it's true, ESPECIALLY when the ship you are comparing it to can do the same thing. I really don't understand what you're trying to say here. It sounds like you're trying to refute what I'm saying... but you're not... so I don't know where this is going.

3 minutes ago, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

How... I don't even... what?

No. That's all wrong. Hit points are worth more or less depending on the agility value of a ship. =/ Think RPG's or any game where you have a character with both hit points and armor values. You got to think in terms of "effective health."

Aye... you guys. The formula is for bare naked ship stats only, and now you're factoring in upgrade cards which is a whole different can of worms. I NEVER SAID NOR IMPLIED that a Zealous Recruit with title and Autothrusters is as good as a same price naked Starviper. No, not even close. Without taking back anything I said, I can simultaneously agree with you here. Seriously, Autothrusters are one of the most overpowered cards in the game, so you can't use that as a basis for saying "so-and-so is better," even if it's true, ESPECIALLY when the ship you are comparing it to can do the same thing. I really don't understand what you're trying to say here. It sounds like you're trying to refute what I'm saying... but you're not... so I don't know where this is going.

Even without the upgrades, I'll never run a naked 25 point starviper in place of a 20 point zealous recruit. I would never run a 24 point starviper when I could take a 21 point zealous recruit instead. If I have 24 points exactly to use, the recruit + upgrades is way better. If I have more than 24 (where I could get upgrades on the viper), I can get the exact same upgrades on the protectorate and upgrade to PS3 and gain an EPT slot.

I'd be willing to spend 1 point for the extra shield on the viper. I might spend 2 points depending on what I was doing with the list. Any more than that just isns't worth it. Hell, given the actual costing in game, if I was going to buy a naked ps1 starviper, I could get the exact same stats by putting a shield on a zealous recruit, be a point cheaper and STILL have a better dial. Even if the starviper was the 1 point cheaper your estimate gives it wouldn't be worth using.

18 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

What he said. As you already pointed out earlier, the upgrades have to be costed to not be overpowered on the lowest health optoins. An Interceptor gains a lot more from a shield than a ghost does. Even more, you have to ask how much that health adds to actual survivability. Look at a 21 point zealous recruit vs a 24 point starviper (using your expected values, ignoring the glass cannon bonus on the protecgtorate and the extra point for the sloop you calculated they used for the viper). Starviper has 1 extra health at 3 points more expensive. For those same 3 points, I could give the recruit both the title and autothrusters. It's now a vastly more survivable ship than he same-price naked starviper. I'd never run a naked point ps1 starviper when I could take an upgraded protectorate instead. Even more so with the actual 5 point difference we have in the game, which means I could have the same title+autothrusters protectorate and save 2 points over the naked starviper.

And to add to this, let's not forget that the PS 1 Protectorate also isn't seen anywhere at all. It is likely overcosted by at least a point, if not two, due to the need low health, high agility ships have of high PS.

So you take that into account, and the Starviper is overcosted by... What? 3, maybe 4 points?

FFG really needs to add to their formula (if there is such a thing) a way to curve the cost based on PS a bit more aggressively. The Jakku Gunrunner may be the first small base, non-elite generic to have a fighting change of hitting top tables since the K-wing. And that's being really optimistic.

And while I'm at it (this is just me wanting to rant and isn't really relateable to the discussion), the PS upgrade from 1 to 3, or 2 to 4, is worth like, half a point. I really wish they would take the Tie Fighter pricing route for all small base ships. Nice and tight for those generic options.

Just now, Kdubb said:

And to add to this, let's not forget that the PS 1 Protectorate also isn't seen anywhere at all. It is likely overcosted by at least a point, if not two, due to the need low health, high agility ships have of high PS.

So you take that into account, and the Starviper is overcosted by... What? 3, maybe 4 points?

FFG really needs to add to their formula (if there is such a thing) a way to curve the cost based on PS a bit more aggressively. The Jakku Gunrunner may be the first small base, non-elite generic to have a fighting change of hitting top tables since the K-wing. And that's being really optimistic.

And while I'm at it (this is just me wanting to rant and isn't really relateable to the discussion), the PS upgrade from 1 to 3, or 2 to 4, is worth like, half a point. I really wish they would take the Tie Fighter pricing route for all small base ships. Nice and tight for those generic options.

I've estimated for a while that compared to what it needs to be playable, the viper is probably about 4 points overcosted. I might have gone lower before the protectorate was released, but since then...

3 points would probably be enough for it to see some play, but I'd bet still not much. Anything less than that and it absolutely needs some extra effect besides just a price decrease to make it usable (coincidentally, I'm working on starviper aces for the CCL...)

4 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

Even without the upgrades, I'll never run a naked 25 point starviper in place of a 20 point zealous recruit. I would never run a 24 point starviper when I could take a 21 point zealous recruit instead. If I have 24 points exactly to use, the recruit + upgrades is way better. If I have more than 24 (where I could get upgrades on the viper), I can get the exact same upgrades on the protectorate and upgrade to PS3 and gain an EPT slot.

Well then this is a problem with the Starviper not offering anything unique IN ADDITION to being overcosted, no? It sounds like you want to change my mind but I'm disagreeing with any of this.

Starviper definitely needs something unique, hence the OP's suggestion to give Starvipers white sloops.

1 hour ago, VanderLegion said:

You don't pay as much for increased health built into a ship as you would to buy a hull or shield upgrade for the same ship.

59 minutes ago, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

The underlined part... why? Please explain.

56 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Lothal Rebel would be a 54 point ship just from the value of its hull and shields.

26 minutes ago, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

How... I don't even... what?

No. That's all wrong. Hit points are worth more or less depending on the agility value of a ship.

1.Vander made a statement.
2. You asked for an explanation.
3. I gave an example of how hull and shield points are valued differently when they are part of a ships' cost than they are as an upgrade.
4. Your response was to basically paraphrase the initial statement from Vander that you wanted explained.

42 minutes ago, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

Well then this is a problem with the Starviper not offering anything unique IN ADDITION to being overcosted, no? It sounds like you want to change my mind but I'm disagreeing with any of this.

Starviper definitely needs something unique, hence the OP's suggestion to give Starvipers white sloops.

A ship doesn't necessarily have to be "unique" to be playable. I agree that the shield is worth "something" on the starviper, and it shouldn't be the exact same price as the protectorate, but you have to price the extra cost of the shield at a point that it's worth paying the extra for the shield instead of saving the points and taking the cheaper ship.

For a comparison, how often do you see shield upgrade taken on...any ship at all? I think it sees very occasional use on the tie interceptor? The sheer fact of the upgrade basically never being used probably tells you that a shield isn't worth 4 points.

How about hull upgrade at 3 points? How often do you see that? Again, pretty much...never.

That tells me people aren't generally willing to spend 3-4 points for an extra point of health. Which means it's...probably not worth that. If the StarViper was 1-2 points more than the protectorate, I'd probably actually use it in certain situations, even without anything else "unique"

9 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

That tells me people aren't generally willing to spend 3-4 points for an extra point of health. Which means it's...probably not worth that. If the StarViper was 1-2 points more than the protectorate, I'd probably actually use it in certain situations, even without anything else "unique"

The "unique" factor of the Starviper pretty much comes from the System Slot and the great knife-fighting dial. Unfortunately, getting that system slot and filling it makes it even more expensive than the protectorate.

The G-1A has the system slot and almost has the dial (marred by red) but doesn't seem quite as tanky.

Just now, WWHSD said:

The "unique" factor of the Starviper pretty much comes from the System Slot and the great knife-fighting dial. Unfortunately, getting that system slot and filling it makes it even more expensive than the protectorate.

The G-1A has the system slot and almost has the dial (marred by red) but doesn't seem quite as tanky.

Too bad the generics can't even GET the system slot...

36 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

1.Vander made a statement.
2. You asked for an explanation.
3. I gave an example of how hull and shield points are valued differently when they are part of a ships' cost than they are as an upgrade.
4. Your response was to basically paraphrase the initial statement from Vander that you wanted explained.

3.) Just to be clear... I am very well aware that HP can be priced differently from a ship to an upgrade. In fact, that's one of the things I was trying to get across. We clearly have miscommunication problems.

Now, I very specifically said "Upgrades are almost always priced via best case scenarios." Saying Lothal Rebel is supposed to be having a cost of 54pts shows that you did not have an understanding of my previous statement, otherwise... why even say it? Lothal Rebel is the absolute opposite of what kind of ship I am saying Hull Upgrade is balanced around. A point of hull on a Lothal Rebel =/= a point of hull on a TIE-Interceptor. In order to try to keep things balanced from a designer's perspective, you need to think of the absolute ideal conditions for a card to thrive, then price accordingly. On 3-ATK and 3-AGI ships, each point of hull over a TIE-Fighter is worth exactly 3 extra points as far as pure stats are concerned according to their formula. My stance is supported by data that very strongly aligns with perceived strength for all ships.

13 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

A ship doesn't necessarily have to be "unique" to be playable. I agree that the shield is worth "something" on the starviper, and it shouldn't be the exact same price as the protectorate, but you have to price the extra cost of the shield at a point that it's worth paying the extra for the shield instead of saving the points and taking the cheaper ship.

For a comparison, how often do you see shield upgrade taken on...any ship at all? I think it sees very occasional use on the tie interceptor? The sheer fact of the upgrade basically never being used probably tells you that a shield isn't worth 4 points.

How about hull upgrade at 3 points? How often do you see that? Again, pretty much...never.

That tells me people aren't generally willing to spend 3-4 points for an extra point of health. Which means it's...probably not worth that. If the StarViper was 1-2 points more than the protectorate, I'd probably actually use it in certain situations, even without anything else "unique"

You're right, a ship DOESN'T have to be unique to be playable, but it helps from a design perspective and a marketing standpoint.

As far as your underlined part, according to the rational behind the whole "glass cannon bonus," it's because that high-damage combined with low-health creates a ship that is weaker than its stats suggest. What good is a HLC Heavy Syck that's worth 1/4 your squad if it dies in the blink of an eye before it ever fires?

You also keep bringing up equipping upgrades like Hull Upgrade.... why!??!?! Heck, even 0pt mods aren't "free." They cost you opportunity. Those slots can be filled with something else, like Autothrusters, and you need to factor that in but you're not. Autothrusters > Hull Upgrade, and almost anything that you'd want to stick Hull Upgrade on can use Autothrusters. It's not that Hull Upgrade isn't always worth it, it's partly because there's something that does the same job BETTER. You are not accounting for sooooo many variables.

White sloops and a white stop.

26 minutes ago, Teloch said:

White sloops and a white stop.

I don't think the world is ready for white stops.

19 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

I don't think the world is ready for white stops.

I would have said that about reverse moves a couple of months ago

Actually, the Starviper has a better Dial than the Protectorate in my opinion. The only thing the Protectorate has over it is the all green 2, thing that really matter only with the PTL. Of course we are used to play with/against Interceptors, so the 2 hard green is gold...but that is just a matter of stress. As nimble Ace, is fine that you have the 2 hard green.

But what is the most struggle that Interceptors, Tie Fighters, and Protectorates still (obviously) have?

Yep, the lacks of "1" maneuvers. And look, Starvipers have ALL the 1 maneuvers.

Why no one never considering the full dial? There's still people who think about Vipers as Interceptors. I mean, really? Just look the Dials to see that those are NOT nimble fighters (but still pretty agile jousters).

Yes they still overcosted, but try to consider the 1 maneuvers set into the cost.

1 hour ago, Cerve said:

Actually, the Starviper has a better Dial than the Protectorate in my opinion. The only thing the Protectorate has over it is the all green 2, thing that really matter only with the PTL. Of course we are used to play with/against Interceptors, so the 2 hard green is gold...but that is just a matter of stress. As nimble Ace, is fine that you have the 2 hard green.

But what is the most struggle that Interceptors, Tie Fighters, and Protectorates still (obviously) have?

Yep, the lacks of "1" maneuvers. And look, Starvipers have ALL the 1 maneuvers.

Why no one never considering the full dial? There's still people who think about Vipers as Interceptors. I mean, really? Just look the Dials to see that those are NOT nimble fighters (but still pretty agile jousters).

Yes they still overcosted, but try to consider the 1 maneuvers set into the cost.

I AM considering the 1s when I say I think the protectorate is better. Viper has 1s and 1 banks. Protectorate gains 3 turns (also really good) and a 5s, trades sloops for trolls, and *has a kturn*. The kturn alone is huge. I couldn't tell you how many times I've flown the starviper where I REALLY missed the kturn because neither sloop was a good option for the situation while a kturn would have been perfect. Plus green turns of course

12 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:

I found the Star Viper with white sloops an amazing ship, normally when they get stress they cannot turn around, but this was great.

Yeah, I imagine if you take any ship's red maneuvers and turn them white you'll suddenly find the ship to be amazing...

3 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

I don't think the world is ready for white stops.

Ha! Definitely not. Takes away a lot of the whole flying aspect part of the game. At least for the reverse maneuvers they're red so they can't be spammed or done turn after turn unless you have something that sheds stress. White has no downsides.

2 hours ago, Cerve said:

Actually, the Starviper has a better Dial than the Protectorate in my opinion. The only thing the Protectorate has over it is the all green 2, thing that really matter only with the PTL. Of course we are used to play with/against Interceptors, so the 2 hard green is gold...but that is just a matter of stress. As nimble Ace, is fine that you have the 2 hard green.

You're right. They fly quite differently. The times I've played with and against Guri I've found that her pilot ability pairs very well with the Starviper's ability to stay in range 1. Also, Segnors > Talons. The ability to reposition your firing arc with Segnors is a big deal, something I didn't appreciate as much until I started using TIE-FO's, Omega Leader, and IG-88's more. For that reason I believe the TIE-FO's currently have the best dial in the game.

1 hour ago, DarthEnderX said:

Yeah, I imagine if you take any ship's red maneuvers and turn them white you'll suddenly find the ship to be amazing...

pretty much

If this were to happen I cant wait to hear all the backlash "great another ship that can turn around forever and not take stress", "when will Rebels get a ship that can turn around and not take stress?" I really don't want to see any more ships in the game that can do this. Tho I have no doubt we have not seen the last of white K-turns/S-loops

A more creative way to do it would be a card that takes up the TORP SLOT (all other slots are to valuable) that lets you preform a 1 hard or 1 soft manoeuvre before you reveal your dial or maybe after. like the Tie Striker Title. After all my games playing with a Starviper, and I've played a lot, then having fun with the Tie Striker, this is what I have wanted to do with the ship. the ship is meant to be very manoeuvrable lets make it so.

I would also like for fun Buzz Droids "after you perform an attack roll 1 attack dice on a hit result you may flip one of your opponents damage cards face up or discard one of there Turret, Missile, Torp, Mod, Sensor, Tech or Cannon upgrades."

Would like white Sloops, but I would NEVER trade a system or mod slot for that

6 minutes ago, IG88E said:

Would like white Sloops, but I would NEVER trade a system or mod slot for that

Pretty much the same: Autothrusters (that only come with this ship, mind) and Advanced Sensors are just too integral to how I fly Star Vipers Guri.

Maybe...

A 0-point Modification called "Integrated Autothrusters", so a free Autothrusters (StarViper only), which still allows you to equip any other Modification.

Another title, -2 points.

I really like the white S-Loop idea too.

6 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

I AM considering the 1s when I say I think the protectorate is better. Viper has 1s and 1 banks. Protectorate gains 3 turns (also really good) and a 5s, trades sloops for trolls, and *has a kturn*. The kturn alone is huge. I couldn't tell you how many times I've flown the starviper where I REALLY missed the kturn because neither sloop was a good option for the situation while a kturn would have been perfect. Plus green turns of course

Well, if I found myself in that situation, I don't blame the dial, I blame myself. Why that Viper needs to do a maneuver that she doens't have?

STILL that the Viper is overcosted, never forget that I consider it too. But sometimes we fly it as an Interceptor, and that's completely wrong.