Hi All,

Played an tournament, 8 players, where everyone had to take a Black Sun Enforcer Star Viper, but all of it's sloops counted as White. Tourney was fun, but man I found the Star Viper with white sloops an amazing ship, normally when they get stress they cannot turn around, but this was great. Also clutch for turning around, just amazing because people had to watch for it. Came in Third, but wow.

If Star Vipers had white sloops, I would definitely play them more. Could this be a possible fix in the future?

Seems like that really would hit the sweet spot for StarVipers. It would certainly be enough for Guri and Xizor. I'm not as sure for the BSE or BSV, but it would at least get it most of the way there. (Dropping the PS restriction on Virago might be the finishing touch. If a no-name can fly the Falcon, surely a no-name can fly the Virago ... )

Are StarVipers glued to a particular mod, or would this have to be an alternative to the Virago title, d'you think?

Typically Starvipers have autothrustors but i think a lot of people would trade them for white sloops.

Starvipers get System and Illicit slots by default. Virago gets you white sloops for a point. I'd love to see that.

Interesting, Maybe another title for 0 points that lets you gain white sloops. Could be interesting for sure. 0 because you lose the Virago title

They really SHOULD have had those two slots by default. Cost aside, the Viper just doesnt do anything w/o those 2 slots and only 1 viper can have them.

Terrible design to me. I hate it when a title adds slots and its unique. Yes that means i have issues with Sabine's TIE too. Unless its crap like Slave I, where nobody uses that slot anyway, it makes the ship useless w/o that title.

3 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

They really SHOULD have had those two slots by default. Cost aside, the Viper just doesnt do anything w/o those 2 slots and only 1 viper can have them.

Terrible design to me. I hate it when a title adds slots and its unique. Yes that means i have issues with Sabine's TIE too. Unless its crap like Slave I, where nobody uses that slot anyway, it makes the ship useless w/o that title.

I see your point, Maybe a new 1 point title, that allows you white sloops and allows you to equip two titles.

Would it break anything if there was a System upgrade that turned your Segnor's Loops white?

Offhand, this would affect the Virago, Aggressor and TIE/sf. It also carries a pretty sizable drawback, as it locks you out of Fire Control Systems.

If you wanted to keep this exclusive to StarVipers, then the easiest solution would be to have it be a Torpedo upgrade a la Chardaan Refit.

1 minute ago, PhantomFO said:

Would it break anything if there was a System upgrade that turned your Segnor's Loops white?

Offhand, this would affect the Virago, Aggressor and TIE/sf. It also carries a pretty sizable drawback, as it locks you out of Fire Control Systems.

If you wanted to keep this exclusive to StarVipers, then the easiest solution would be to have it be a Torpedo upgrade a la Chardaan Refit.

I like that idea.

Advanced Maneuvering Thrusters or something to do with the wings of the viper?

Torpedo slot

Star Viper Only

0 Pts

Turns any sloop white

10 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Would it break anything if there was a System upgrade that turned your Segnor's Loops white?

Offhand, this would affect the Virago, Aggressor and TIE/sf. It also carries a pretty sizable drawback, as it locks you out of Fire Control Systems.

If you wanted to keep this exclusive to StarVipers, then the easiest solution would be to have it be a Torpedo upgrade a la Chardaan Refit.

It could have its own System upgrade ala Tie/X1.

Starviper Only

Yeah, I think the StarViper suffers from a little too conservative planning from FFG - they've learned their lessons a little with ships since. Some ships you're clearly meant to run a lot of, some ships you're clearly meant to run one - and the generic only exists to give you the upgrades. At the time, FFG was planning for people to run one, maybe two StarVipers seems like and they wanted to incentivize using the uniques with a specific title. But most people seem like they don't want to pay for upgrade slots, and making them depend on the title really narrows that field down.

That said, would people run 4x SVs with white sloops? It sounds fun since you could flip around and boost/barrel roll.

2 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

Would it break anything if there was a System upgrade that turned your Segnor's Loops white?

Offhand, this would affect the Virago, Aggressor and TIE/sf. It also carries a pretty sizable drawback, as it locks you out of Fire Control Systems.

If you wanted to keep this exclusive to StarVipers, then the easiest solution would be to have it be a Torpedo upgrade a la Chardaan Refit.

So TIE SF/s I think there could be a system slot with restriction small ship only that you can use to target other small ships making speed 1-3 red maneuvers white or instead of white. Then again we already have pattern analyzer which does the same thing. So lets take a look at small ships with system slots and speed 1-3 red maneuvers

• B-wings
• TIE/SF
• Star Viper (title only)
• TIE Punisher
• TIE Phantom
• TIE Advanced (with title)
• G1-A

Question is other than copying the tech pattern analyzer what could we make that could help those ships out. None of them are really making the top of the meta.

Don't know why, but I feel that the future Starviper fix will be about reverse maneuvers. Maybe is the chassis that suggest me?

6 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

That said, would people run 4x SVs with white sloops? It sounds fun since you could flip around and boost/barrel roll.

I'm not sure I'd run four, but that's just because I find mixed lists more fun. But I'd certainly run two.

I actually really like this fix idea, and I'd like it to simply be:

Title, 0 points, StarViper only - Treat your Segnor's Loop maneuvers as white maneuvers. You may equip another, different, title, including Virago (nothwithstanding Virago's PS restriction).

(I'd actually prefer it to simply be an erratum to the ship, but I recognize that's not going to happen.)

The StarViper is in a weird place for me, because when it was first announced I hated it, denouncing it as looking nothing like a Star Wars ship. But it grew on me, a lot, until by release time I loved the ship. And then ... well, then it sucked, which crushed my will to live. Anyway, I think it's a very cool ship, and I'd like to be able to play mine competitively.

And while we're at it:

Buzz Droids, 2 points, Torpedo, StarViper only(?) - Attack 3 (Focus). You may re-roll the dice for this attack once. If the attack hits, assign a Buzz Droid token to the target.

Buzz Droid reference card - During the end phase, the ship to which a Buzz Droid token is assigned rolls one red die for each Buzz Droid token and suffers any damage rolled. A ship with a Buzz Droid token assigned may remove one token by taking an Action.

34 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Yeah, I think the StarViper suffers from a little too conservative planning from FFG - they've learned their lessons a little with ships since.

I see no sign that FFG has learned their lesson from anything. We still get wacky upgrades on certain ships and then other ships that don't have certain upgrades that obviously would assist someone to actually want to fly the ship. Check out the Kihraxz, G1A, Sabine's Interceptor, and the cost of the Concord Dawn Protector generics for example in the same faction. There are several other in the Imperial and Rebels factions.

Almost Every small ship in the Scum faction is or has a mess up. Either poorly priced or poorly worded, or lack of EPT or something and while it is less and FFG has released some so called "fixes", what if we could just buy the ship and fly it out of the package without having to wait a year and a half for a fix. That would show improvement.

35 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

So TIE SF/s I think there could be a system slot with restriction small ship only that you can use to target other small ships making speed 1-3 red maneuvers white or instead of white. Then again we already have pattern analyzer which does the same thing. So lets take a look at small ships with system slots and speed 1-3 red maneuvers

• B-wings
• TIE/SF
• Star Viper (title only)
• TIE Punisher
• TIE Phantom
• TIE Advanced (with title)
• G1-A

Question is other than copying the tech pattern analyzer what could we make that could help those ships out. None of them are really making the top of the meta.

Technically there already is a Sensor equiv of PA: Adv Sensors. Theyre not exactly the same thing but they largely do the same thing, just at different points. Because of that i doubt we'd get another sensor thats akin to PA.

However a Starviper specific one to just make the 3sloops white for 0-1pts would be totally fine/acceptable. Its not stepping on Adv Sensors' toes because its ship specific and dodges the stress entirely while not denying it if stressed.

1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

So TIE SF/s I think there could be a system slot with restriction small ship only that you can use to target other small ships making speed 1-3 red maneuvers white or instead of white. Then again we already have pattern analyzer which does the same thing. So lets take a look at small ships with system slots and speed 1-3 red maneuvers

• B-wings
• TIE/SF
• Star Viper (title only)
• TIE Punisher
• TIE Phantom
• TIE Advanced (with title)
• G1-A

Question is other than copying the tech pattern analyzer what could we make that could help those ships out. None of them are really making the top of the meta.

That's why I was focusing specifically on the Segnor's Loop, and not just all red maneuvers. I don't want to create a situation where we suddenly get super maneuverable B-Wings and G1-As. Restricting the system to "Small Ship Only" would probably do the trick, as IG-88D would probably be a bit broken if you could do perpetually do Segnor's Loops while reactively deciding whether to use the 3-bank or 3-turn template.

My analysis of the ship HERE reveals through the formula that the Starviper's stats are worth exactly 24 points, meaning a Black Sun Enforcer is paying exactly 1 point for its action bar and Segnor Loop. When you compare that to what similar ships pay, what the Starviper is paying is definitely on the "too high" side. This is likely because it was the first ship to feature Segnor Loops, and FFG tends to price cautiously with new features.

It's somewhere in the ~0.5pts overpriced range, and making its Segnor Loops white may be an appropriately priced fix. It's always striked me as a knife-fighter, and so I'd say this fix fits rather thematically. I like it.

38 minutes ago, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

My analysis of the ship HERE reveals through the formula that the Starviper's stats are worth exactly 24 points, meaning a Black Sun Enforcer is paying exactly 1 point for its action bar and Segnor Loop. When you compare that to what similar ships pay, what the Starviper is paying is definitely on the "too high" side. This is likely because it was the first ship to feature Segnor Loops, and FFG tends to price cautiously with new features.

It's somewhere in the ~0.5pts overpriced range, and making its Segnor Loops white may be an appropriately priced fix. It's always striked me as bit of a knife-fighter, so I'd say this fix fits rather thematically. I like it.

I disagree. No way a single shield on the starviper is worth 3 points over the protectorate (based on your estimated 21 and 24 points, especially when the protectorate has a better dial and can take the title). And even if it was, given that the protectorate IS only 20 points, starviper is definitely more than 1 point overcosted, even if you give it white sloops.

1 hour ago, buckero0 said:

I see no sign that FFG has learned their lesson from anything. We still get wacky upgrades on certain ships and then other ships that don't have certain upgrades that obviously would assist someone to actually want to fly the ship. Check out the Kihraxz, G1A, Sabine's Interceptor, and the cost of the Concord Dawn Protector generics for example in the same faction. There are several other in the Imperial and Rebels factions.

Almost Every small ship in the Scum faction is or has a mess up. Either poorly priced or poorly worded, or lack of EPT or something and while it is less and FFG has released some so called "fixes", what if we could just buy the ship and fly it out of the package without having to wait a year and a half for a fix. That would show improvement.

Protectorates and Quad Jumpers seem fine. And actually, a couple regionals have been won with G1-A lists. Using Generics even.

FFG does seem to have some concerns of maximum number of ships of certain stats you can run - 5 naked 3 attack ships is okay, 5 3-attack ships with upgrades (I/E Protectorates with Title or TIE Strikers with EPT like crackshot) is not okay. That's a factor which is not pure math and unless any of us are in the minds of FFG developers we can't really reckon on their exact logic. Personally I'd say Protectorate generics are a steal - Concord Dawn Ace gets +2 PS and an EPT for just one more point than Veteran. Otherwise stuff you mentioned was in those early zones. Also it's their own fault for trying to make the Kihraxz akin to an X-Wing when at the time even the X-Wing wasn't really flying - should have maybe been more adventurous with the design space.

3 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

Protectorates and Quad Jumpers seem fine. And actually, a couple regionals have been won with G1-A lists. Using Generics even.

FFG does seem to have some concerns of maximum number of ships of certain stats you can run - 5 naked 3 attack ships is okay, 5 3-attack ships with upgrades (I/E Protectorates with Title or TIE Strikers with EPT like crackshot) is not okay. That's a factor which is not pure math and unless any of us are in the minds of FFG developers we can't really reckon on their exact logic. Personally I'd say Protectorate generics are a steal - Concord Dawn Ace gets +2 PS and an EPT for just one more point than Veteran. Otherwise stuff you mentioned was in those early zones. Also it's their own fault for trying to make the Kihraxz akin to an X-Wing when at the time even the X-Wing wasn't really flying - should have maybe been more adventurous with the design space.

Conversly, I'd argue the zealous recruit is about a point overcosted based on numerous comparisons. It's notable that while the protectorate has shown up a lot in regionals, it's almost all Fenn Rau, with some Old Terochs. I've not seen any of Kad or the generics showing up.

Kihraxz was definitely not the best design decision. As you said, making it simmilar to the x-wing when the x-wing isn't very good. And at the same time, while they made it 1 point cheaper so we could run 5, we also lose out on access to the astromech slot the x-wing has, and didn't even get a salvaged astro to make up for it, just an illicit, which is rather less flexible longterm.

Scyk was useless for a long time, though it's seen more play with the heavy scyk change, and we'll see how light scyk does.

StarViper is WAY overcosted, and has been from the beginning. Final nail in the coffin was the almost-identical protectorate starfighter for a massive discount.

G1-A sees some use, and as you said, has done well in a few regionals, though not nearly as much as other ships. It came out at about the worst possible time since they were basically scum b-wings that released at the same time as the b-wing killer in the u-boat. The disappearance of uboats has opened up the possibility of using g1as more again.

Protectorate as I said, we see the top 2 unique pilots, but don't really see the generics.

Quadjumper is yet to be seen how it'll do in the meta. It's an interesting ship at least, and I'll definitely be playing around with it to see what I can do. Remains to be seen if it'll stand up or not

26 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

I disagree. No way a single shield on the starviper is worth 3 points over the protectorate (based on your estimated 21 and 24 points, especially when the protectorate has a better dial and can take the title). And even if it was, given that the protectorate IS only 20 points, starviper is definitely more than 1 point overcosted, even if you give it white sloops.

Yes, way. One easy way (without the formula) to see this is true is due to how FFG prices their upgrades. Upgrades are almost always priced via best case scenarios. That's why "Hull Upgrade" is worth 3pts, and you typically only see it on low HP ships like the TIE-Interceptor. A single extra hit point on a low hit point ship is a huge increase for their total survivability because they don't have a lot of health to begin with. My point is that you are SEVERELY underestimating how much a single point of health is worth on a low health ship, and I have a lot more than a feeling to back up my claim.

The second way to find out is via hard math (AKA the formula). I have hard-tested the formula with EVERY ship in the game with extremely consistent results. I can tell that you also seem to not have read but rather skimmed the article, which is understandable since it's long but also means you missed the part where the Protectorate has a special bonus for being defined as a "glass cannon" that the Starviper does not have.

I saw the glass cannon bonus for the protectorate. That's why my comment was based on the 3 point difference of expected points, not the 20 vs 25 of actual costs. The ONLY thing the starviper has (discounting upgrades) over the protectorate is 1 shield. You don't pay as much for increased health built into a ship as you would to buy a hull or shield upgrade for the same ship. Especially when, if you add the title for the protectorate (putting it at 21 points), a single trigger of the title saving you a health is as good as the shield on the viper. And any subsequent triggers make it even better.