On 2/19/2017 at 5:04 AM, GrimmyV said:

Back during SotE I was not a fan of the Starviper, I agree it didn't seem very Star Warsy.

That's such a common complaint, but I've never understood it.

It has X shaped wings. What's the problem?

I would also suggest a fix by granting new pilots. I think this would help because there is really only one way to fly the highest PS option, which is the Xizor swarm. I think it would greatly help if they had a PS8 that had a great offensive ability, a PS6 that had a menouverabliliy skill, and a 4 that has some other ability. This would give options that would benefit the ship as a whole, and make it all of the sudden a competitive ship, in addition to something like making the Sloop white for the SV.

On a separate note, the SV is canonically a "weapons platform" and I don't think the ship has that feel. To reflect how the Viper should be, it should have the ability to get a cannon upgrade. My point: why not give it a title like the Tie/D with the cannon? Any thoughts?

9 minutes ago, BCvalor said:

I would also suggest a fix by granting new pilots. I think this would help because there is really only one way to fly the highest PS option, which is the Xizor swarm. I think it would greatly help if they had a PS8 that had a great offensive ability, a PS6 that had a menouverabliliy skill, and a 4 that has some other ability. This would give options that would benefit the ship as a whole, and make it all of the sudden a competitive ship, in addition to something like making the Sloop white for the SV.

On a separate note, the SV is canonically a "weapons platform" and I don't think the ship has that feel. To reflect how the Viper should be, it should have the ability to get a cannon upgrade. My point: why not give it a title like the Tie/D with the cannon? Any thoughts?

Well, in the last page someone brought up that there is an model of the Starviper somewhere in Star Wars lore that replaces the Torpedo slot with Ion Cannons. A simple Torpedo slot retrofit that allowed a Starviper to equip Ion Cannons would feel unique on an arc-dodger. A TIE/D title would be interesting, but it might pigeon-hole players into choosing FCS as the go-to System slot. The fact that it has access to System and Illicit can change things quite a bit.

I also believe extra pilots would definitely help.

2 hours ago, BCvalor said:

I would also suggest a fix by granting new pilots. I think this would help because there is really only one way to fly the highest PS option, which is the Xizor swarm

This isn't even remotely true. I've flown a ton of xizor and I've literally never run the Z swarm. My favorite is 2 btl ion/r4 ywings and a naked pirate. You can run him with a couple g1as. You can run him with a party bus. You really only have to have 1 ship nearby to soak a hit from his ability.

On 2/20/2017 at 0:11 AM, UnitOmega said:

Well, I haven't really flown StarVipers so I can't comment so much, but general consensus seems to be A( They cost too much for what you get, and B( They really need those upgrade slots off Virago. So ideally, if I could go back in time, I'd swap Virago so it adds Torpedos and all of the original models have the Illicit slot (because Pistoka sabotage droids and the fact that there's not a solid source the Torpedoes are standard apparently).

But, FFG may also have a solution which appears in their Edge of the Empire line, in the adventure Mask of the Pirate Queen . In it, the player characters accept a Consortium job to take on an enemy pirate fleet and provided are stats for friendly StarViper "M-2"s, listed as an aftermarket modification. In addition to swapping the Torpedo Tubes for Ion Cannons, the M-2 model mounts its cannons directly on the s-foil wings or some other external armature so they can swivel to fire technically in any direction - unless the pilot locks them forward in "Maneuvering" mode which gives the ship increased speed and maneuverability (though the cannons are a slightly lighter frame)

So I'd say probably a 0-pth dual title card to the StarViper, M-2 (Maneuvering) could allow the White Sloops or some other niche maneuvering effect (like bank barrel rolls I commonly see) and then M-2 Attack would allow attacks outside your firing arc (and if that's too rough on the SV, make you roll 1 less die if outside your arc or something). Can flip the card after executing a maneuver.

(And yes, a ship of the scale of the SV having 'fire arc: all' is about as crazy in EotE as you might think it is in X-Wing)

What if:

"Viper M-2" title: -3 points
Top Side:
Your upgrade bar loses the {torp symbol} upgrade. You must equip the Ion Cannon upgrade card.
After you perform an attack that hits, you may assign the defender an Ion token.

At the start of the end phase, you may flip this card over.

Bottom Side:
After you execute a white move, you may assign an evade token to your ship.

Whilst the ship doesn't become cheaper, it does now start doing something unique, i.e a full damage Ion Cannon that counts as a primary and also helps it survive a bit more in the other function.

Not sure anyone would take the Virago title now though.

So I was reading the wookiepedia page about the Viper and Xizor's personal ship and found that his one had a St2x Targeting Computer:
"Their final design combined the very advanced St2x with an experimental laser sighting system. Once installed, the package was capable of providing targeting information to the pilot even while undergoing complex maneuvers. The system was so advanced that virtually any weapon systems installed on the Virago would perform at levels far higher than their manufacturer's specifications."

So I am thinking:
ST2x Targeting Computer
System Slot: 1 point - Must have the Virago title equipped
When you declare an attack, if you have a target lock on the defender, reduce their agility by one, to a minimum of zero.
You may treat the header {Attack: Target Lock} as {Attack}.

Then to fix the others:
M-2 Retrofit
Title: -2 points
This card has a negative point cost.
Your ship loses the {torpedo symbol} and gains the {system symbol} from its upgrade bar.

First title makes a single ace stronger using both their primary and secondary weapons. Guri or Xizor with Mindlink + Auto thrusters + Title + ST2x TC + Scavenger Crane and a torpedo of choice becomes quite effective, if not, just take the title and ST2x for a hard hitting weapons platform.

Second title helps out the generics by giving them either free auto thrusters and collision detector or free Fire Control system.

13 hours ago, Sekac said:

That's such a common complaint, but I've never understood it.

It has X shaped wings. What's the problem?

I would say more Tron than SW. And the wings only exist to increase its front profile by 500% making it super easy to hit the ship in a frontal assault.

1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

I would say more Tron than SW. And the wings only exist to increase its front profile by 500% making it super easy to hit the ship in a frontal assault.

Nonsense, I say. It's the most practical star wars ship, IMO, in that the design of it doesn't require suspension of disbelief in order for it to function in space. You've got 2 primary engines for thrust, and 4 smaller thrusters in the wing tips for fine actuation.

Need to boost? The wings drop back to nearly parallel and 6 thrusters propel it forward.

Need to barrel roll? 2 wingtip thrusters on diagonally opposite wings fire simultaneously to cause it to spin.

What's the point of wings on other ships? To place your guns further from the fuselage, making them arbitrarily less accurate.

How do other star wars ship adjust pitch and yaw in space? Magic.

Just never understood why the only star wars ship not based on space magic gets so much grief. "What, the design isn't complete bullsh**, that's not 'Star Warsy'!"

1 hour ago, GrimmyV said:

I would say more Tron than SW. And the wings only exist to increase its front profile by 500% making it super easy to hit the ship in a frontal assault.

i'd have to agree with this. First thing that came to mind when i saw the Viper was the flowery-shaped platform in Tron.

3 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

i'd have to agree with this. First thing that came to mind when i saw the Viper was the flowery-shaped platform in Tron.

Not a coincidence. Both are modeled on theoretical "solar sails."

StarViper reminds me something about Elite Dangerous universe. Don't know why, maybe is the white, maybe is the ship that I will buy in that game...can't say way but still.

I love that flower

1 hour ago, Sekac said:

Nonsense, I say. It's the most practical star wars ship, IMO, in that the design of it doesn't require suspension of disbelief in order for it to function in space. You've got 2 primary engines for thrust, and 4 smaller thrusters in the wing tips for fine actuation.

Need to boost? The wings drop back to nearly parallel and 6 thrusters propel it forward.

Need to barrel roll? 2 wingtip thrusters on diagonally opposite wings fire simultaneously to cause it to spin.

What's the point of wings on other ships? To place your guns further from the fuselage, making them arbitrarily less accurate.

How do other star wars ship adjust pitch and yaw in space? Magic.

Just never understood why the only star wars ship not based on space magic gets so much grief. "What, the design isn't complete bullsh**, that's not 'Star Warsy'!"

Exactly, Star Warsy means super impractical. Big giant engines in the back and guns all over. And in the case of TIEs the honking huge 'solar panels' of dubious use in deep space, unless the pitiful trickle of starlight is enough to produce the acceleration in the films (more magic inertial dampening I suppose).

13 minutes ago, GrimmyV said:

Exactly, Star Warsy means super impractical. Big giant engines in the back and guns all over. And in the case of TIEs the honking huge 'solar panels' of dubious use in deep space, unless the pitiful trickle of starlight is enough to produce the acceleration in the films (more magic inertial dampening I suppose).

Not to mention, anyone who criticises the Starviper for having too much targetable surface area is somehow looking past the TIE fighter's wings which closely resemble the broad side of a barn.

20 hours ago, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

Well, in the last page someone brought up that there is an model of the Starviper somewhere in Star Wars lore that replaces the Torpedo slot with Ion Cannons. A simple Torpedo slot retrofit that allowed a Starviper to equip Ion Cannons would feel unique on an arc-dodger. A TIE/D title would be interesting, but it might pigeon-hole players into choosing FCS as the go-to System slot. The fact that it has access to System and Illicit can change things quite a bit.

I also believe extra pilots would definitely help.

18 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

This isn't even remotely true. I've flown a ton of xizor and I've literally never run the Z swarm. My favorite is 2 btl ion/r4 ywings and a naked pirate. You can run him with a couple g1as. You can run him with a party bus. You really only have to have 1 ship nearby to soak a hit from his ability.

Thats great that you found a different way to run him, but the viper needs a higher pilot with either an offensive or a maneuver boost. Both Guri and Xizor have defensive-ish boosts, and it keeps the ship from being as versatile as it could be. All the only high PS pilot can do is shift damage, and I hate making builds around hurting my other ships. Scum has a lot of those abilities, but its far from the only purpose of the faction, and the viper should be reinvented somehow. Personally, its my favorite ship from cannon besides the IG-2000, and I think i speak for many others in saying that there could and should be a lot more you can do with the ship. A lot of these ideas that others have posted is great, I just think it was very poorly reflected in in X-wing compared to the source material, and pilots among other upgrades could change that. I just hope they do a veterans pack for this ship and maybe the Kyraxz, or something.

1 minute ago, BCvalor said:

Thats great that you found a different way to run him, but the viper needs a higher pilot with either an offensive or a maneuver boost. Both Guri and Xizor have defensive-ish boosts, and it keeps the ship from being as versatile as it could be. All the only high PS pilot can do is shift damage, and I hate making builds around hurting my other ships. Scum has a lot of those abilities, but its far from the only purpose of the faction, and the viper should be reinvented somehow. Personally, its my favorite ship from cannon besides the IG-2000, and I think i speak for many others in saying that there could and should be a lot more you can do with the ship. A lot of these ideas that others have posted is great, I just think it was very poorly reflected in in X-wing compared to the source material, and pilots among other upgrades could change that. I just hope they do a veterans pack for this ship and maybe the Kyraxz, or something.

Oh I totally agree the ship needs a boost. Just was pointing out a xizor swarm was NOT the only way to fly xizor. And I'd call guri's ability way more of an offense boost than a defense one. I've rarely if ever had her ability keep her alive longer, and frequently (usually) had her die in spite of a stack of focus tokens that can't modify blank green dice.

I still want talonbane cobra in the starviper for a good high ps ace. Would be better than the existing pilots, and WAY better than the kihraxz version.

On 2/16/2017 at 3:24 PM, Jeff Wilder said:

I'm not sure I'd run four, but that's just because I find mixed lists more fun. But I'd certainly run two.

I actually really like this fix idea, and I'd like it to simply be:

Title, 0 points, StarViper only - Treat your Segnor's Loop maneuvers as white maneuvers. You may equip another, different, title, including Virago (nothwithstanding Virago's PS restriction).

(I'd actually prefer it to simply be an erratum to the ship, but I recognize that's not going to happen.)

The StarViper is in a weird place for me, because when it was first announced I hated it, denouncing it as looking nothing like a Star Wars ship. But it grew on me, a lot, until by release time I loved the ship. And then ... well, then it sucked, which crushed my will to live. Anyway, I think it's a very cool ship, and I'd like to be able to play mine competitively.

This is exactly what I was saying months ago. It's the perfect fix, and makes this ship very usable again. Heck if they really wanted to go nuts they could make is -1 point too. Plus it allows them to use a multi title, which is something FFG hasn' done before and they like doing that.

If that would be the case I would see Mindlink reinforcing that even more, but I would of seen rather the white sloop on Starviper having it than JM5K..

I would call 1-2p tittle to gain white sloops and system slot or tech instead illicit.. Starviper is still the most cool looking ship in whole game and it should be seen in tournaments.

On 02/18/2017 at 2:14 AM, SEApocalypse said:

Now that thing can really turn. (Poe's comment on the TIE/sf)

The deal lessens a lot when your list is mindlink, it is enormous big deal pre-mindlink because you really wanted to use PTL on a ship like the protectorate or viper, but with mindlink that urge is gone for scum. Now the generic vipers don't have EPTs and are useless either way
Hmm. Maybe I should try Fenn Rau, Guri and Manaroo ... does this fit? I don't think so.

2017 Toronto regional finals had Fenn, Guri and Manaroo, loosing it for Nora/Dash list...