On February 16, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Jeff Wilder said:

I'm not sure I'd run four, but that's just because I find mixed lists more fun. But I'd certainly run two.

I actually really like this fix idea, and I'd like it to simply be:

Title, 0 points, StarViper only - Treat your Segnor's Loop maneuvers as white maneuvers. You may equip another, different, title, including Virago (nothwithstanding Virago's PS restriction).

(I'd actually prefer it to simply be an erratum to the ship, but I recognize that's not going to happen.)

The StarViper is in a weird place for me, because when it was first announced I hated it, denouncing it as looking nothing like a Star Wars ship. But it grew on me, a lot, until by release time I loved the ship. And then ... well, then it sucked, which crushed my will to live. Anyway, I think it's a very cool ship, and I'd like to be able to play mine competitively.

Back during SotE I was not a fan of the Starviper, I agree it didn't seem very Star Warsy. Now I just pity it, being a 20 dollar package for AT cards.

So the title should be:

Vigo (title, Starviper only, 0 pts)

your upgrade bar gains the 'system' slot.

AND

have a 1 pt system upgrade:

Advanced S-foils (system, Star Viper only)

your S-loops are treated as white maneuvers.

AND

FAQ the Virago to include 'Reduce cost of any System, Illicit, or Modification upgrade on this ship by 1, to a minimum of 0 squad pts.'

What about a Tech Slot into the Starviper?

2 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Or making the cut in the german nationals last year iirc

@KettchGER got a 5th last year's lothal open and a 15ths in the german nationals. This should have been before the protectorate fighter, Fenn Rau is a rather good replacement for Guri. My best tournament placements are as well with that list.

Last year

12 minutes ago, Cerve said:

What about a Tech Slot into the Starviper?

No.

1 minute ago, GrimmyV said:

No.

Cool.

On 2/16/2017 at 2:10 PM, eagletsi111 said:

Hi All,

Played an tournament, 8 players, where everyone had to take a Black Sun Enforcer Star Viper, but all of it's sloops counted as White. Tourney was fun, but man I found the Star Viper with white sloops an amazing ship, normally when they get stress they cannot turn around, but this was great. Also clutch for turning around, just amazing because people had to watch for it. Came in Third, but wow.

If Star Vipers had white sloops, I would definitely play them more. Could this be a possible fix in the future?

I will try this for sure with our own home brew games...ultimately the cost of the ship still keeps it off the board for me. Using a -2 refit on the the torpedo slot has made it more palpable...but still pricey. Truth be told...not even really sure what role I feel like it fits in a fleet...everything it does is done better by another ship. I just try and get it on the board cause I like the aesthetics and flavor of the ship. (Consequently why I also do not fly the Kihraxz...terrible looking ship ha)

A cost reduction and a few quality pilots would go a long way...but your white sloop idea is fun and I look forward to trying it.

4 hours ago, Cerve said:

Last year

Fair point, at the same time it was considered unplayable and non-competitive at that time too. ;-) Sensor Jammers with Focus Stealing is a really, really nice ability. Basically focusing on attacks against you too. Guri in that list survives most of the time attacks which usually kill a palp defender in a single turn. *g*

On February 16, 2017 at 0:48 PM, buckero0 said:

I see no sign that FFG has learned their lesson from anything. We still get wacky upgrades on certain ships and then other ships that don't have certain upgrades that obviously would assist someone to actually want to fly the ship. Check out the Kihraxz, G1A, Sabine's Interceptor, and the cost of the Concord Dawn Protector generics for example in the same faction. There are several other in the Imperial and Rebels factions.

Almost Every small ship in the Scum faction is or has a mess up. Either poorly priced or poorly worded, or lack of EPT or something and while it is less and FFG has released some so called "fixes", what if we could just buy the ship and fly it out of the package without having to wait a year and a half for a fix. That would show improvement.

They overpower large ships and underpower small ships. Ugh jumpmaster.

8 hours ago, Cerve said:

What about a Tech Slot into the Starviper?

I don't think that sounds bad. So far "Tech" is exclusive to "Force Awakens" era and beyond, though. However, when I look at the Starviper, it looks like a pretty high-tech ship. From a story timeline standpoint, it could be one of the first ships to have it.

I think the question we should first be asking is "what kind of ship does the Starviper come across to you as?" For me, it looks like a high-tech, agile knife-fighter.

I think we kind of need to agree on a general direction first before spewing out random suggestions, although from my standpoint and reasoning I can see white sloops and Tech slots both being consistent with the theme.

The bigger issue I see with adding a tech slot (in isolation, anyway) to a SV is that it's just loading yet more points onto the thing - it's not like any of the upgrades are particularly efficient, even if they are useful.

1 hour ago, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

I don't think that sounds bad. So far "Tech" is exclusive to "Force Awakens" era and beyond, though. However, when I look at the Starviper, it looks like a pretty high-tech ship. From a story timeline standpoint, it could be one of the first ships to have it.

I think the question we should first be asking is "what kind of ship does the Starviper come across to you as?" For me, it looks like a high-tech, agile knife-fighter.

I think we kind of need to agree on a general direction first before spewing out random suggestions, although from my standpoint and reasoning I can see white sloops and Tech slots both being consistent with the theme.

That'd be the System slot anyway. System seems to be a good way to describe ships which have "advanced" or more powerful components in the time of the GCW, tech describes ships built much later - I don't think we'll see Tech slots on many "old" ships unless they appear again in the newer films or other works set much farther down the timeline - if that can't be written off as a new model anyway.

5 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

That'd be the System slot anyway. System seems to be a good way to describe ships which have "advanced" or more powerful components in the time of the GCW, tech describes ships built much later - I don't think we'll see Tech slots on many "old" ships unless they appear again in the newer films or other works set much farther down the timeline - if that can't be written off as a new model anyway.

Yeah, I'd think you're right. Deep down I didn't think they'd want to do "tech" on anything old, either. Well, what do you think the Starviper needs then, and how would it fit from your perceived thematic standpoint? Something tells me that those **** wings need to express themselves somehow in the game, and white sloops seem right up that alley.

Well, I haven't really flown StarVipers so I can't comment so much, but general consensus seems to be A( They cost too much for what you get, and B( They really need those upgrade slots off Virago. So ideally, if I could go back in time, I'd swap Virago so it adds Torpedos and all of the original models have the Illicit slot (because Pistoka sabotage droids and the fact that there's not a solid source the Torpedoes are standard apparently).

But, FFG may also have a solution which appears in their Edge of the Empire line, in the adventure Mask of the Pirate Queen. In it, the player characters accept a Consortium job to take on an enemy pirate fleet and provided are stats for friendly StarViper "M-2"s, listed as an aftermarket modification. In addition to swapping the Torpedo Tubes for Ion Cannons, the M-2 model mounts its cannons directly on the s-foil wings or some other external armature so they can swivel to fire technically in any direction - unless the pilot locks them forward in "Maneuvering" mode which gives the ship increased speed and maneuverability (though the cannons are a slightly lighter frame)

So I'd say probably a 0-pth dual title card to the StarViper, M-2 (Maneuvering) could allow the White Sloops or some other niche maneuvering effect (like bank barrel rolls I commonly see) and then M-2 Attack would allow attacks outside your firing arc (and if that's too rough on the SV, make you roll 1 less die if outside your arc or something). Can flip the card after executing a maneuver.

(And yes, a ship of the scale of the SV having 'fire arc: all' is about as crazy in EotE as you might think it is in X-Wing)

31 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

(And yes, a ship of the scale of the SV having 'fire arc: all' is about as crazy in EotE as you might think it is in X-Wing)

This can be represented somewhat fairly in the game as a mobile firing arc or frontal wide arc akin to the YV-666. I did the calculation for how much a Starviper should cost with it, and it should cost ~27.5pts. However, there has never been a 3-ATK primary weapon turret in the game before, so this is extrapolating the data quite a bit. From a gameplay standpoint, fighting a high PS turret with a small base and arc-dodging capabilities sounds ridiculous. I am against this. However, if it was only able to be used every other turn via a dual card like you mention, then something like this is a definite possibility. It also sounds fun as hell!

A title similar to the "Mist Hunter" that allows the Starviper to equip exclusively an Ion Cannon at the cost of their Torpedo slot sounds like a very fair alternative.

9 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Well, I haven't really flown StarVipers so I can't comment so much, but general consensus seems to be A( They cost too much for what you get, and B( They really need those upgrade slots off Virago. So ideally, if I could go back in time, I'd swap Virago so it adds Torpedos and all of the original models have the Illicit slot (because Pistoka sabotage droids and the fact that there's not a solid source the Torpedoes are standard apparently).

But, FFG may also have a solution which appears in their Edge of the Empire line, in the adventure Mask of the Pirate Queen. In it, the player characters accept a Consortium job to take on an enemy pirate fleet and provided are stats for friendly StarViper "M-2"s, listed as an aftermarket modification. In addition to swapping the Torpedo Tubes for Ion Cannons, the M-2 model mounts its cannons directly on the s-foil wings or some other external armature so they can swivel to fire technically in any direction - unless the pilot locks them forward in "Maneuvering" mode which gives the ship increased speed and maneuverability (though the cannons are a slightly lighter frame)

So I'd say probably a 0-pth dual title card to the StarViper, M-2 (Maneuvering) could allow the White Sloops or some other niche maneuvering effect (like bank barrel rolls I commonly see) and then M-2 Attack would allow attacks outside your firing arc (and if that's too rough on the SV, make you roll 1 less die if outside your arc or something). Can flip the card after executing a maneuver.

(And yes, a ship of the scale of the SV having 'fire arc: all' is about as crazy in EotE as you might think it is in X-Wing)

Ít does? I don't have the book, but I remember that the front arc itself could swivel and making the thing basically as agile as starfury and allowing the ship to misalign its nose from its flight vector. Was it really just the ion cannons?

BTW Mechanically this could simply a mobile firing arc, which totally would look good on the viper. All we would need for that are new plates with 4 arcs and a new peg which can be turned so the model itself shows the firing arc of the ship, while it flies along its normal bases. Easy peasy. Would make the ship super annoying to deal with.

9 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

Ít does? I don't have the book, but I remember that the front arc itself could swivel and making the thing basically as agile as starfury and allowing the ship to misalign its nose from its flight vector. Was it really just the ion cannons?

BTW Mechanically this could simply a mobile firing arc, which totally would look good on the viper. All we would need for that are new plates with 4 arcs and a new peg which can be turned so the model itself shows the firing arc of the ship, while it flies along its normal bases. Easy peasy. Would make the ship super annoying to deal with.

Here's a rough quote from the relevant parts of the M-2 description in Mask:

"Two “arms” extend from the cockpit, each holding a pair of weapons. The arms can swing forward and backward, enhancing targeting capability and even allowing the pilot to fire behind the ship."..."More importantly, the proton torpedo launchers have been replaced with a pair of ion cannons, making the fighter popular among pirates and criminal consortiums."..."Quad arm-mounted light laser cannons (Fire Arc All;"..."Maneuvering Mode: As a maneuver, the pilot may switch into or out of maneuvering mode. When in maneuvering mode, the StarViper M-2 increases its speed and handling by I. However, its arm-mounted light laser cannons change their Fire Arc to “Forward.”"

Thanks, now that is an odd ability. Mechanically it makes the ship a super nice ship good shots and bad pilots, but from the fluff, the idea is super odd. Especially how those arms are supposed to reduce speed and handling.

The armatures draw power, and also if they can swivel that freely they probably shift around and unbalance the ship's mass if you fly too fast or janky. If you lock them forward the ship can move speed easier and have more moving flexibility.

Has anybody tried Electronic Baffle on a StarViper like Guri or Xizor? It doesn't make the maneuver white, but you still get your action and the dial is open for the next turn.

Push the Limit could be interesting, too.

32 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

Has anybody tried Electronic Baffle on a StarViper like Guri or Xizor? It doesn't make the maneuver white, but you still get your action and the dial is open for the next turn.

The lack of health to play with would be my immediate concern with running Baffle.

11 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

The lack of health to play with would be my immediate concern with running Baffle.

Yeah, I know. But if you're not getting shot at (because you're arc-dodging) then it becomes a great resource. Sure, the G1-A has more health, but it also sustains way more damage upon being shot and is less likely to get around enemy arcs. I'm not suggesting it's super competitive, but it seems like a really fun idea that I hadn't seen before.

Okay, so I was thinking about a fair and practical way to implement a Starviper being able to turret fire. Auxiliary arcs wouldn't work because the bases would need the printed dotted lines, and I forgot about that.

Something that would keep its ability to turret fire relatively fair would be to only allow the Starviper to use that ability at range 1 (with maybe a -1 roll to its red dice). This would solidify its role as THE knife-fighter of the game, and it would even give it an interesting niche as a possible anti-ace weapon (although aces could still Autothrusters it). Just an idea.

14 minutes ago, f0rbiddenc00kie said:

Something that would keep its ability to turret fire relatively fair would be to only allow the Starviper to use that ability at range 1 (with maybe a -1 roll to its red dice). This would solidify its role as THE knife-fighter of the game, and it would even give it an interesting niche as a possible anti-ace weapon (although aces could still Autothrusters it). Just an idea.

If it's range-1 and out-of-arc, does it still get the +1 bonus for being a primary weapon at range-1, meaning it gets 3 attack dice? Or would you treat it as a secondary weapon so that it only rolls 2 dice?

1 hour ago, Budgernaut said:

If it's range-1 and out-of-arc, does it still get the +1 bonus for being a primary weapon at range-1, meaning it gets 3 attack dice? Or would you treat it as a secondary weapon so that it only rolls 2 dice?

I would have treated it as 3 dice at range 1, the same amount as a 2 dice primary turret.

I think having a Dual card title would be nice, something along the lines of one side having a point cost reduction (while taking away the torpedo slot) and the other side having a maneuver modifier like a white Sloop or Green hard turns.