I felt that the imperials had the better ships/titles while rebels had the better aces, and unique upgrades. I feel this is still true to a point but the rebel ships are getting better and better. Imperial Aces are getting much deadlier and less synergistic which is good.

11 hours ago, Ophion said:

I will advocate for Motti going to 30 points and only affecting medium to large ships.

I'm an Imperial player, but hes just too good compared to the other admiral options. The others all need some kind of specialisation and a favourable game situation. Motti is just a straight auto bonus.

As far as admirals go, disagree entirely, Motti isn't very good at all.

Why? He does nothing to improve your game, he just means you might survive that shot that kills you, the larger the ship, larger the chance. Overall though, he doesn't do anything to eliminate your threats, or get you out of bad places, just a bit of hope maybe they won't completely crush the ship with that roll.

Completely reactive, and subject to being negated entirely depending on what hits you.

Often taken because, what else do Imperials really have that is cheap, which pairs well with why is JJ such a hit. Getting out of bad situations and in better position is much better than a hull point or 3, as you won't need them as you weren't in that bad situation.

I'm not sold the game plays well when you take a defensive approach, offense rules this game. He definitely doesn't need to cost more.

3 minutes ago, Darthain said:

I'm not sold the game plays well when you take a defensive approach, offense rules this game. He definitely doesn't need to cost more.

Yes, but in another point of view - he allows you to ignore a part of the Defense Game, and play aggressive, because "Screw You, I have Hull."

7 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Yes, but in another point of view - he allows you to ignore a part of the Defense Game, and play aggressive, because "Screw You, I have Hull."

this is compounded with blast doors.

Imperial offensive admirals are really just vader and screed and they aren't truly offensives in the way Sato or Akbar are. You sacrifice something for a re-reoll or dice fixing you aren't adding dice or changing reds to blacks.

Id personally like to see a more squadron friendly admiral but it wont happen as squadrons are just fodder to the empire.

12 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

I don't take Ahsoka very often. She's good on high command value ships that need the flexibility, or in certain constructed combo scenarios like enabling ET with Raymus on an MC80 carrier, but she's no more a panacea than Needa is. Sure, you CAN take her on anything, but in a lot of builds, she's 2 wasted points.

usually i have her sitting on my flotilla thats also got slicers so shes always in position to work. That token swap has saved my butt so many times its ridiculous.

1 hour ago, BergerFett said:

Imperial offensive admirals are really just vader and screed and they aren't truly offensives in the way Sato or Akbar are. You sacrifice something for a re-reoll or dice fixing you aren't adding dice or changing reds to blacks.

Yeah, I don't buy that at all.

Ackbar: the tactical sacrifice of giving up double arcs almost entirely.

Sato: the strategic sacrifice of having to bring heavy squadrons to enable an admiral that benefits gunship builds. Alternatively, having to make cuts in your bomber wing to put shooty upgrade on your carriers.

Vader: exhaust a defense that you probably weren't going to use anyway to increase your average damage. Also, the only full-pool selective red reroll at long range in the game.

Screed: guaranteed--guaranteed!--procs for your crit effects. Do you know how many games I've lost because my MC30's choked on the one critical roll? You're spending the worst die in your pool to flip a black to hit/crit+proc. That is virtually never not worth it.

proc effects are good but really its 1 ship. Once ordance experts came out screed became almost unnecessary. Lets not forget vader is also 36pts.

Ackbar is a may you take the double arc if presented with it, if not do the big single arc. I know most dont liek arckbar but hes touched my naughty bits plenty enough for me to respect him.

54 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

proc effects are good but really its 1 ship. Once ordance experts came out screed became almost unnecessary. Lets not forget vader is also 36pts.

Ackbar is a may you take the double arc if presented with it, if not do the big single arc.

Let's also not forget that Ackbar is 38 points, that, if you take that double arc, does nothing at all for you.

I disagree that OE obviates Screed--if anything, they complement each other well. Screed lets you OE aggressively and fix resulting blanks if need be.

In cross-faction context, the admirals are quite well-balanced. What I find more interesting is that the two biggest "duds", Tagge and Garm, are the two whose effects take place on specific rounds.

33 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

Let's also not forget that Ackbar is 38 points, that, if you take that double arc, does nothing at all for you.

I disagree that OE obviates Screed--if anything, they complement each other well. Screed lets you OE aggressively and fix resulting blanks if need be.

On cross-faction context, the admirals are quite well-balanced. What I find more interesting is that the two biggest "duds", Tagge and Garm, are the two whose effects take place on specific rounds.

i quite like garm. especially with pelta's now. hes "weak" but only because of the other admirals seem very strong.

part of it is the grass is always greener for sure but i see madine and sato to be extremely strong comapred to the imperials extremely strong motti or tarkin.

50 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

proc effects are good but really its 1 ship. Once ordance experts came out screed became almost unnecessary. Lets not forget vader is also 36pts.

Ackbar is a may you take the double arc if presented with it, if not do the big single arc. I know most dont liek arckbar but hes touched my naughty bits plenty enough for me to respect him.

I think at this point a lot of folks have come around on Ackbar being a perfectly fine admiral choice. Except maybe Tirion. Tirion thinks we all cray cray probably. But he does fine in the right fleet. I also think hes one of those admirals to watch each successive wave, as presumably the rebels are due for another broadsider.

2 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

i quite like garm. especially with pelta's now. hes "weak" but only because of the other admirals seem very strong.

part of it is the grass is always greener for sure but i see madine and sato to be extremely strong comapred to the imperials extremely strong motti or tarkin.

I certainly can agree that the Rebel admirals are more interesting than the Imperial options. The admiral choices are a big part of why I keep coming back to Rebels despite trying to brach out to Imp several times. I'm just not particularly inspired by any of them.

That said, I can't wait to get a chance to try out Jerry. I think he's going to be a lot of fun.

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

I certainly can agree that the Rebel admirals are more interesting than the Imperial options. The admiral choices are a big part of why I keep coming back to Rebels despite trying to brach out to Imp several times. I'm just not particularly inspired by any of them.

That said, I can't wait to get a chance to try out Jerry. I think he's going to be a lot of fun.

i like him but having to engineer every turn/2 feels bad. Its more of the sacrifice defense for offense.

8 hours ago, CaribbeanNinja said:

Very interesting about Ahsoka:

not a single instance in the Vassal World Cup. Not even in the one Garm list on which she would be superb.

I would propose that she is great with Garm and Pelta fleet baloney.

I'm literally proposing the exact opposite: From my table time, she is good in nearly every single fleet. Also, she does show up in the Regionals lists?

---

Tua is effectively 7+ points.

Kallus is good, I agree.

Needa is circumstantial at best, and pretty horrible vs bombers. Only marginally effective vs mass gunship like Ackbar.

11 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

I disagree with the first part, but not the second. Imperial unique upgrades tend to be really expensive, even when powerful.

What do you disagree with?

3 hours ago, BergerFett said:

i quite like garm. especially with pelta's now. hes "weak" but only because of the other admirals seem very strong.

part of it is the grass is always greener for sure but i see madine and sato to be extremely strong comapred to the imperials extremely strong motti or tarkin.

I found Sato to be underwhelming actually. High cost, requires true mixed fleet. If you lose either part, you inhibit sati's power.

In general I feel underwhelmed by the Imperial Admirals.

Take the three mentioned in the OP for instance. Ozzel's speed +/- ability was worth it for DMSU lists where you want to stall a bit, then flash into attack speed at the preise moment. Outside of that, he's only taken because he's cheap, and he doesn't help fighters for instance. Tagge is a non-starter because one, how many flotillas are you taking that are likely going to burn their defense tokens that much before they die and two, his timing makes him very difficult to work with. Believe me, I'd love to run Tagge VSDs and just brace into infinity, but with fighting starting around turn 3, I just missed the window for Tagge and have to wait until what, Turn 5? For his benefit. And that's only one token, whereas by then I've burned away two from the attacks I've suffered.

The Empire has some good admirals that shine under good conditions, but I feel too many of them are situational. Tarkin is great, but you need to utilize those tokens or he's just wasteful. Vader is good if you have large batteries and redundant tokens. Screed is maybe the best generic admiral because you could always use a crit, but he especially shines when you have a lot of critical effects. Motti is the only one who isn't, because he passively adds to hull regardless of whatever else is in your fleet.

At least Dodonna can proc off of anyone overlapping an asteroid to make him interesting. Ackbar's fallen, but back in the day he single-handedly destroyed any Imperial capital ship list that challenged him. Mon Mothma is a patron saint of anyone with an evade token, and Rieekan is like the anti-Motti except he helps fighters too, and enables a death attack, possibly making him worth more than Motti when all things are concerned (I can't look at costs, so I'm not certain if he is there).

Of course, I could feel Empire is lacking because I'm an Imperial-centric player and I'm always finding areas I'm dissatisfied with the range of capabilities, like my big ships being unable to do anything to fighters, so to progress I need to have carrier-centric lists, which is not what I'd like to do in Armada (Turbolaser starhammers ftw)!

52 minutes ago, Norsehound said:

Motti is the only one who isn't, because he passively adds to hull regardless of whatever else is in your fleet.

Of course, I could feel Empire is lacking because I'm an Imperial-centric player and I'm always finding areas I'm dissatisfied with the range of capabilities, like my big ships being unable to do anything to fighters, so to progress I need to have carrier-centric lists, which is not what I'd like to do in Armada (Turbolaser starhammers ftw)!

i feel motti is the best for this reason. hes always active you dont have to design around him. hes cheap. it lets you make your ships more offensive due to his ability

i am an imperial player as well and there is a case of the "grass is always greener" i just see a more diverse selection of rebel admirals at events and that makes me sad.

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I'm literally proposing the exact opposite: From my table time, she is good in nearly every single fleet. Also, she does show up in the Regionals lists?

Not in the summary, but for the lists posted on FFG forums:

Tua 13all, 2 winners

Kallus- 11 all, 1 winner

Toryn 12 all, 1 win

Ahsoka 9 all, 4wins

Lando 11/2

Raymus 7/1

Adar 5/1

Needa 7/0

And whats the stats on Motti?

Competitively there appears to be little incentive to take anyone else. I think if he was around 30 points there would be a lot more consideration of the other low-mid-20 point imperials (ozzell, tagge, screed, konstantine, jerry). At present all these guys are quite niche and need favourable game situations to contribute anything. Wheras Motti is a rock solid constant. Those extra hull can be so significant. The number of times its meant demo has gotten one more double arc off, or an ISD has just rocked through the thick of battle and survived, meaning its given up zero points, is amazing. The only Imp I would consider giving Motti any competition is Jerrijod.

59 minutes ago, Ophion said:

And whats the stats on Motti?

Competitively there appears to be little incentive to take anyone else. I think if he was around 30 points there would be a lot more consideration of the other low-mid-20 point imperials (ozzell, tagge, screed, konstantine, jerry). At present all these guys are quite niche and need favourable game situations to contribute anything. Wheras Motti is a rock solid constant. Those extra hull can be so significant. The number of times its meant demo has gotten one more double arc off, or an ISD has just rocked through the thick of battle and survived, meaning its given up zero points, is amazing. The only Imp I would consider giving Motti any competition is Jerrijod.

i would argue tarkin with relay and 4-5 ship builds.

but yes jerrjerod seems like the next "non situation dependant" admiral with vader and screed. vader and tarkin are very expensive which is fine but in a game of bids and min maxing i feel this hurts them a lot

1 hour ago, Ophion said:

And whats the stats on Motti?

Competitively there appears to be little incentive to take anyone else. I think if he was around 30 points there would be a lot more consideration of the other low-mid-20 point imperials (ozzell, tagge, screed, konstantine, jerry). At present all these guys are quite niche and need favourable game situations to contribute anything. Wheras Motti is a rock solid constant. Those extra hull can be so significant. The number of times its meant demo has gotten one more double arc off, or an ISD has just rocked through the thick of battle and survived, meaning its given up zero points, is amazing. The only Imp I would consider giving Motti any competition is Jerrijod.

Motto is reported in the spreadsheet. 16% all/26% top 4/14% wins. He is the most popular admiral, both sides, and wins at or above expectations.

That said, 11/16 of admirals have won a regional, so don't feel too constrained into one strategy.