Hi all! What do you think about this? I've been checking the possible formations of undead, and I feel really disappointed about the number of expansion boxes you need to maximize your units.

As example the reanimates: you get 4 trays in the core box, with only 1 movement dial so you can place 1 unit of 2x1 or 1 unit of 2x2, that's all. Let's think you buy a expansion box, then you will have 6 trays of reanimates, and you will be able to place a 3x2 unit or one unit of 2x1 + another of 2x2.

How many boxes do we need to maximize a block of infantry??? 4x4 block of infantry? you need the core box + 6 expansion boxes!!! Even the previous step require to buy 3 expansions to make a unit of 3x3.

I feel myself much more confortable with an idea of 16 infantry / 8 cavalry units boxes (4 trays) + 2 dials per box and a prize of about $40 than having smaller boxes. This way you can setup 2 units of 2x1 or one unit of 2x2.

What do you think about this´? is the size of the expansion boxes correct or should be bigger?

(Sorry about my English, I'm quite sure I make some faults on grammar)

If your goal is to run the biggest block of infantry, then I think you go with 2 cores and 4 expansions, which is about $300, but gets you a lot of other units, too. If you want as many small infantry units as possible, you'll be going for 1 core and 6 expansions, which saves you $50 ($250), but your list-building not as diverse since it's all infantry except for 2 units.

The other alternative is to trade figures. In that case $100 gets you half of your reanimate. So there are other ways to get your 4x4.

Now, your point is on #units per expansion. As you pointed out, it takes 6 expansions for 4x4 infantry. Is too little per box? You are right that it seems very expensive to maximize unit sizes. I do hope that infantry boxes have more figures since they have larger formations than the archers or cavalry.

42 minutes ago, Hijodecain said:

How many boxes do we need to maximize a block of infantry??? 4x4 block of infantry? you need the core box + 6 expansion boxes!!! Even the previous step require to buy 3 expansions to make a unit of 3x3.

I feel myself much more confortable with an idea of 16 infantry / 8 cavalry units boxes (4 trays) + 2 dials per box and a prize of about $40 than having smaller boxes. This way you can setup 2 units of 2x1 or one unit of 2x2.

15 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

Now, your point is on #units per expansion. As you pointed out, it takes 6 expansions for 4x4 infantry. Is too little per box? You are right that it seems very expensive to maximize unit sizes. I do hope that infantry boxes have more figures since they have larger formations than the archers or cavalry.

I agree with @Budgernaut , I think I have started several post like that, If all you want is big units your best bet using core boxes to fill out the extra models or buy them from ebayers that are breaking down the cores to sell individual components (that how i'm going to get my 4th carrion lancer) it will probably be the most cost effective. With reanimates and spearman? we have no idea the size of the unit in the expansion, my bet is they will follow the pattern from cav and archers and release the same size that comes in the core, hopefully for only a bit more $$ like 30 or something, in regards to the control dial? maybe there will be two in it maybe not, I don't want to speculate that far though I would hope they go with two for the people wanting to run MSU lists. I don't understand this army type but other seem to really dig it so I hope they aren't punished into dishing out ridiculous money for the ability to run it...if they do release an expansion with 4 trays of skellz(for you @Muz333 )/spearz(there I did it again) but only one dial I will wonder why they even bothered making a 2x1 option for those if it is going to be stupidly costly to run...

52 minutes ago, Hijodecain said:

I feel myself much more confortable with an idea of 16 infantry / 8 cavalry units boxes (4 trays) + 2 dials per box and a prize of about $40 than having smaller boxes . This way you can setup 2 units of 2x1 or one unit of 2x2.

The blue is almost how the boxes are priced the only difference is that you get extra cards, since after the price reduction every store should be using the box will be between $20-22 2 boxes then gets you 8 horses or 16 archers and runs $40ish

I was investigating this earlier on, and ran a few threads about this and how it might specifically impact Waiqar players. I will try to sum up my current view and outlook on the subject here:

1. Big Block Pros/Cons -
   • The pros of a big block are threefold:
     • Higher model count means more wounds, which makes it harder to score victory points for elimination
     • Your upgrade slot progression is determined by formation size, so if you want a specific upgrade you must have a certain unit size
     • Tier II size adds a reroll, Tier III adds a damage multiplier, Tier IV adds a reroll, and Tier V adds a reroll
   • The cons of a big block are threefold:
     • Larger size means higher cost and more concentration of your points into a single target (important with the game's elimination objectives)
     • Longer and deeper formations will be harder to wheel and turn without colliding with an enemy. When you collide with an enemy, your movement stops and you take a panic token. A key counter to protect key units from large formations is going to be 'tank trapping' to make them collide with your units into their flanks as they try to turn or spin.
   • Neutral -
     • "unit shadow" is greater, meaning that it will both be better able to shield other units from enemy ranged attacks, and have a better ranged arc to attack with, but will also be more likely to block the movement of your own units when it gets locked into combat. I definitely see getting your big unit shielding against enemy charges and ranged getting pinned early in movement and your own units piling up into its rear with their planned movements or being blocked for actions if players are not careful, like happens in XWing with collisions and blocking.
   • Faction/Unit Specific -
     • Reanimates have the Regenerate ability, which acts to fill remaining spaces in trays when green runes are thrown during a round. This requires that after damage is dealt, you have trays with empty spaces. Larger units have a higher probability of surviving long enough to make the impact of this ability significant because they can take a greater number of hits.
     • Ardus' ability allows the Waiqar army to get the upgrades of one Tier higher than their actual size, keeping them equal to or better the faster progressing Daqan for the same Tier size.

General summary:

I think we are going to see a lot of armies built around Tier III units as their mainstays for a long while. They will get the damage upgrade and a reroll, and still be maneuverable and easy to march without collisions. I think having six trays of units will be about all you really need until we start getting more upgrade options and have the command expansions that will push us to upgrade for a 9-tray or a 12-tray. If you have two cores and an officer's expac, you should have enough units to field a full 9-tray squad (or 1 core, 2 infantry expacs, 1 command expac). Honestly, I would rather see the trays come two at a time and have lower cost (and shipping!) than larger numbers. Hopefully there will be the same sort of expacs that XWing has down the road as Rebel Aces, where we get some new poses and we can get like 2-3 new poses for workhorse units like Reanimates and Spearmen, maybe a special commander figure.

Well... I didn't realize the limited command dials availability. Good point for you for mentioning this fact.

Hum... I'll buy two core sets so the problem looks a bit of none to me but still.

So ok in each expansion pack there are 2 trays and one dial... great.

So yes I think your proposition is a good one as I've come to the same conclusion by comparing the infos we have and I would have been keen to pay a 40$ for 8 cav. or 16 inf. + two dials. Or... but i don't know how they would deal with it : a command dials epansion that maybe would come later when more units are released and they can afford to sell aditionnal game materials independantly from units paks. Don't worry, game material will get used and somehow fall into pieces or not fit perfectlyy anymore and all the players don't have the skill to craft or time to spend in tournaments and wining prize (oh yeah there are reseller who will try to sell some stuffs but command dials are a copyrighted property so only FFg will sell them (I think).

but that doen't answer the question for the time being... heck yeah, I don't know exactly. You seem to buy one core set and I'm among those who will buy more than one so we'll have some stock of game materials. i will buy one copy of each expansion pack. You never know when minis will be useful or not and the command units are a must have as long as the new cards. But will I buy multiple copies of each ? Maybe the command units... that will be a emptiness in my wallet... so yes. Let's see what's coming on.

By the time we hadn't seen the unboxing, I was overhyped. When the unboxing came, I felt down. then I felt I had to choose a faction to motivate myself (as long as the motivation brought by some among you, thanks guys !). Then I chose the undeads ad now I'm overhyped again.

So yes I need to see how I will plan my future purchases and sell any dusting old game I have sometimes never opened (unexpected rewards from a kickstarter, etc.)

3 hours ago, Hijodecain said:

Hi all! What do you think about this? I've been checking the possible formations of undead, and I feel really disappointed about the number of expansion boxes you need to maximize your units.

As example the reanimates: you get 4 trays in the core box, with only 1 movement dial so you can place 1 unit of 2x1 or 1 unit of 2x2, that's all. Let's think you buy a expansion box, then you will have 6 trays of reanimates, and you will be able to place a 3x2 unit or one unit of 2x1 + another of 2x2.

How many boxes do we need to maximize a block of infantry??? 4x4 block of infantry? you need the core box + 6 expansion boxes!!! Even the previous step require to buy 3 expansions to make a unit of 3x3.

I feel myself much more confortable with an idea of 16 infantry / 8 cavalry units boxes (4 trays) + 2 dials per box and a prize of about $40 than having smaller boxes. This way you can setup 2 units of 2x1 or one unit of 2x2.

What do you think about this´? is the size of the expansion boxes correct or should be bigger?

(Sorry about my English, I'm quite sure I make some faults on grammar)

I look at all this in a very different way. When I buy miniatures I look at price per model. So, games like Silver tower, 50 figures for 100 dollars, or 2 dollars a figure are a good deal to me. Versus say their game Gorechosen which costs fifty and only has 4 figures, which I certainly would never buy based on that math.

The basic math for me for rune wars is that the core game is roughly 2 dollars a figure, a great price. The expansions are 8 for 25, or roughly 3 dollars a figure for rank and file, I consider that a good deal one that I'm willing to partake in. Command figures are double that, but you also get a lot of game components in the command blister, so I'm not sure at the value there, but my faith in FFG is high. Before anyone gets into the cost of the game itself, I consider that a lost leader to get me to play with their figures, as I have thousands already and honestly don't need to collect another art style and range of figures.

The size of the boxes is good in my mind, as the price is right and you get extra components to play with (you're going to want more dials available as it gives more options if you want to take them).

18 minutes ago, Taki said:

The expansions are 8 for 25, or roughly 3 dollars a figure for rank and file, I consider that a good deal one that I'm willing to partake in.

That works out for the Archers, but the Oathsowrn Cavalry comes out to about 6 dollars per figure. In your opinion, is that too high?

I really think that if they are dealing in terms of each expac is two trays and one dial, that you really will end up with enough dials. To build from my earlier example: if you had two core expansions plus a command, you would have 9 trays of spearmen/reanimates and 2 dials. You could field a full unit with all upgrades, with a dial in storage, or a unit of 2 trays and a unit of 6 trays, or two units of 4 trays, with some upgrades scattered in each. You have a lot of list flexibility with just those options and only two dials. It would be impossible to field 4 units of 2 trays, but I see that as a specialist build, geared to a player with a very specific list rather than the general lists. For casual players, we are getting a lot of flexibility out of these units, allowing us to use them in many different ways. Now a tourney build, with a very specific strategy, may end up spending more per model or more per dial just to achieve the extremes of model/dial ratios, but for the casual player like myself its not going to be an issue.

Second, everyone keeps listing the price at MSRP. I didn't even pre-order at MSRP, and the prices will surely come down when the game grows. If you are a gotta-buy-em-all kinda player, sure your going to pay a bit extra, but I'm sure preordering expacs is going to occur at more of a $21.50 dollar point plus shipping (buy one of each in a wave or doubles and its probably free). After a wave is out for a while, I'm sure the prices will drop more. Most of the early waves of XWing have dropped to about 80% of their MSRP just as the average price (plus shipping), and with a good sale you can usually pick them up for a lot less, just as Imperial Assault and Descent have done. I'm sure the same will happen to Rune Wars when a year from now we all decide we want 12 tray reanimates or 10 units of cavalry.

41 minutes ago, Budgernaut said:

That works out for the Archers, but the Oathsowrn Cavalry comes out to about 6 dollars per figure. In your opinion, is that too high?

Well, aren't they twice the size?

I'm buying two core sets, and trading my Daqan with a friend for his undead. That'll give me 4 core sets of undead which will give me plenty of options (and dials). I'll buy one of each of the expansion sets for the cards, and for the fact that I want to be able to field a huge army.

@drkpnthr I like your breakdowns of everything to cost per mini and such, its good info for cost analysis...

2 hours ago, drkpnthr said:

everyone keeps listing the price at MSRP. I didn't even pre-order at MSRP, and the prices will surely come down when the game grows. If you are a gotta-buy-em-all kinda player, sure your going to pay a bit extra, but I'm sure preordering expacs is going to occur at more of a $21.50 dollar point plus shipping (buy one of each in a wave or doubles and its probably free).

I plan to play this in FFG's Organized Play program, which means I need a store to play at, so that means I'm going to support my local store rather than buying online and I've never been to a brick-and-mortar store that sold product similar to online prices. One store sold at 10% off (went out of business) but the rest in my area charge MSRP. I'm not going to complain about that price because it's my choice to pay that amount, but I have to plan my purchases with the assumption of MSRP.

Sadly the stores in my area are all focused on GW products. I've asked and there isn't a store within a 50 mile drive that will be offering RW Organized Play, same as XWing and Warmahordes. So it makes more sense for me to buy online and have it shipped to me than driving 1.5 hours round trip, and wasting $7-8 dollars of gas. I wish there were stores in my area to play in, and I have made the journey to a few store events outside my area, but its not something I have time to do. We have a large group of gamers who host casual events in their homes and just enjoy tournaments within our group. Several of us are getting into Runewars with the release, and we hope to encourage the local casual scene. I'm even planning to take my painted army down to the local stores and try to interest more players, hopefully to convince people to join our casual events. Hopefully I'll run into 2-3 other people doing the same thing and we can get some kind of casual league games running during their regular GW nights (though we could never get XWing off the ground there). Anything I need for gaming that my local store offers, I try to buy there to support them, but sadly they just aren't selling the products I want to buy or hosting events for the games I want to play.

@drkpnthr where is your area and why are your stores against OP for other games? Or are there not enough people interested in the game to justify organized play and stocking produt?

Midwest, my local store chains just don't have a budget devoted to bringing in a lot of events, and GW demands so many feet of retail space be devoted to their products, and they require that the store purchase so many dollars of product each month in order to host events. The stores have focused completely on GW for official events because that, and they say they can't divert sales away from GW with competing products. Before I went by to ask about RW, I don't think I had been there in over 6 months (and then just to buy some more dice to give away to new players joining our RPG games). Without any official events, there is just the casual scene which we organized outside of the stores. We have about 10-20 meet about 1-2 times a month at different hosts houses to play IA, XWing, and Armada in garages and dining rooms, and we plan to add Runewars competitions in too. I spent several months going to the local stores off and on to try to drum up enough people to get them to start hosting FFG games, and they had no problem with us using the space to run casual games, but most tournament people wanted the prizes and ladder climbing of an official tournament, and focused their money on the GW products being hosted. Many of the people in my area who run FFG tournaments just travel 45 mins to another city. I have friends who travel over an hour to play in Infinity and Warmahordes tournaments.

6 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

That works out for the Archers, but the Oathsowrn Cavalry comes out to about 6 dollars per figure. In your opinion, is that too high?

No, I consider cavalry 2 models each, and monsters as like 5

2 hours ago, drkpnthr said:

Midwest, my local store chains just don't have a budget devoted to bringing in a lot of events, and GW demands so many feet of retail space be devoted to their products, and they require that the store purchase so many dollars of product each month in order to host events. The stores have focused completely on GW for official events because that, and they say they can't divert sales away from GW with competing products. Before I went by to ask about RW, I don't think I had been there in over 6 months (and then just to buy some more dice to give away to new players joining our RPG games). Without any official events, there is just the casual scene which we organized outside of the stores. We have about 10-20 meet about 1-2 times a month at different hosts houses to play IA, XWing, and Armada in garages and dining rooms, and we plan to add Runewars competitions in too. I spent several months going to the local stores off and on to try to drum up enough people to get them to start hosting FFG games, and they had no problem with us using the space to run casual games, but most tournament people wanted the prizes and ladder climbing of an official tournament, and focused their money on the GW products being hosted. Many of the people in my area who run FFG tournaments just travel 45 mins to another city. I have friends who travel over an hour to play in Infinity and Warmahordes tournaments.

Many local stores allow their players to buy the tournament kits and play them/set them up at their locations, even if they don't sell the product. Perhaps your FLGS would be amenable to you doing that. Failing that, you can come play with the group I'm planning on putting together in Boston

6 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

That works out for the Archers, but the Oathsowrn Cavalry comes out to about 6 dollars per figure. In your opinion, is that too high?

3 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

I plan to play this in FFG's Organized Play program, which means I need a store to play at, so that means I'm going to support my local store rather than buying online and I've never been to a brick-and-mortar store that sold product similar to online prices. One store sold at 10% off (went out of business) but the rest in my area charge MSRP. I'm not going to complain about that price because it's my choice to pay that amount, but I have to plan my purchases with the assumption of MSRP.

I also figure similarly with many products. Also because you mentioned an interest in discwars, here's a resource you might like, old but good

http://leagueofsubterraneangentlemen.com/diskwars/

I also,would have preferred twice the minis for say $40, but it also makes the up front cost higher which scares people away.

Hopefully long term term there will be alternate ways to purchase the minis, like a big box expansion for each faction or campaign boxes.

Doing this on my phone, so I don't have details at my fingertips, but Spearmen max size is 3x3, right?

So if you want to max them out, add a command group, Frontline Rune Golem, and Kari Wraithstalker and there you go: a full 3x3 unit with just 1 core and 1 command expansion.

But... That unit could run you near 100 points with the right upgrade cards, so that's half your army. Don't expect to need to run too many like that!

You could also do placeholder trays. If you buy one core box, just grab a couple of empty trays from the faction that you're not using. For a casual game, no one will care. For a tournament maybe you can't do that, or maybe you have to get fancy and make a terrain modeling project. I'll bet there's some great grave yard ideas out there if you google for skeleton unit fillers.

You also can't do this exercise completely hypothetically without considering what your opponent might do. Even if money were no object, it might not be useful to run just a couple units of maxed out infantry. Could an MSU or cavalry army distract, avoid, and delay these few maxed out units? Do you have enough solid units to grab objectives if you have a maxed out unit? We just don't know the answer to these questions until we get some practice with the movement templates and a meta game develops.

We also have no idea about future releases. It could be that melee infantry is packaged four trays to a box, or that force starters with a different pricing structure are released that make larger units more attractive price-wise. A little patience may save you hundreds of dollars more than crafty deals on eBay or deep discounts on pre-orders.

I just checked and it looks like max Spearmen is 3x4, so you only need 12 trays. Two cores and two expansions gets you maxed out (assuming 2 trays per expansion).

@Budgernaut No, it's a 9-tray formation, Reanimates are 12-tray.

I have always like what Warmachine and Hordes did of creating a 'Big Army Box' for the major factions to help players pick up new factions. However, I don't think it would be a good thing for this game, nor larger boxes. FFG games all are based around investing in a core game box that gives you a few units to start your collection, and all of the tools to play the game. Then, you add to your collection by buying expansion packs. It really is designed for players to build a collection and then play different forms of the game using different combinations of their expansions. Each expansion gives you access to a unit or a few units, a few small tools, and a few new trinkets (like upgrades and titles). If you are trying to get a specific build, inevitably you have to seek out some of the more limited cards by buying expacs for units you don't really need. If there is a big box, it will certainly come with faction specific upgrades only available in the big box, meaning it would be cost ineffective to purchase to get access to it or other cards. I would rather pay the same amount per mini and buy a smaller number of trays for one or two units at a time than need to buy three battle boxes just to get three copies of some card that is limited only to that set. I think it would be cool if they offered something like a Daqan Veterans pack, where they give special poses and unique title cards, and maybe had enough Spearmen to do a 2x2 by itself, or Spearmen and Cavalry. Last but not least, I don't want to have to buy some ugly giant mini just to get the upgrade that comes with him like the Huge ships in XWing.

Are max sized units the go-to for Runewars, a game that isn't released yet? Personally, I'll wait and see.

I think they managed to hit an even spread in the increasing damage/decreasing cost plus the stronger upgrades being available at higher ranks to make it more of a mixed bag rather than a this or that.
I do think having atleast one well endowed unit will be important, and then an array of units to support it.
Reanimates ironically seem like they would work better in in the 3by2 formations.

2 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

I just checked and it looks like max Spearmen is 3x4, so you only need 12 trays. Two cores and two expansions gets you maxed out (assuming 2 trays per expansion).

That's OK, because I just realized that I no longer know how to count to 9. 4 infantry trays+command tray+golem tray+Kari Tray=7, not 9... Doh!

And I'm not certain that Kari gets a whole tray when she's in a unit.

Anyway, yeah, I guess you'll have to do the two-core swapping thing plus expansions to make it work.

@drkpnthr I like how you calculate the cost per miniature. It's a good way to measure the content. I'm no upset with the cost, I'm a little bit disappointed with the distribution method.

As I said before, since the units and the way to get access to upgrades is making bigger formations, sometimes you would like to play big formations. If you are getting 4 trays in a core box, and 2 trays on each expansion, the necessity of 12 trays of reanimates (I check it again, and you guys where right about the number) is outstanding. That's 4 expansions additional to a core box (2 if you are able to exchange one faction of core box to duplicate the content).

I'm just thinking that maybe expansion boxes of 4 trays are more suitable than only 2 trays. My distribution idea:

• Currently: 1 box with 2 trays, one dial and a bunch of cards (about 5). Price: $25
• Proposal: 1 box with 2 trays, two dials and the same buch of cards (about 5). Price: To be define (maybe 40$) mass production reduce the costs.

On retail, not on an online shop, you can get a 10% more or less this is 22.5$ per box currently. Or 36$ if my price is confortable with FFG.

This distribution method will make much more easier to get big units without getting a big number of cards duplicate. Maybe siege weapons are trays with a size of 2x2 instead of 1x1 like infantry, and in this way is much more easier to achieve a 4x3 formation.