5 minutes ago, Hida77 said:

High five!

I have judged events though, and in my opinion if this question arose, I would be very skeptical if he used the word "strategy" in his explanation of why he did it. That is subjective and I would want to watch the player in question to decide for myself if he was just OCD/superstitious about it or acting to influence the outcome of course.

I will say that his description in this thread would definitely make me think it was the latter though. And the marshal/judge has a lot of power to do what he feels best in that situation. I would probably at least issue a warning to stop. If it was obviously malicious enough, then obviously more.

That's a perfectly valid assessment, and I'm sure I'd do the same. I just wanted people to think about this in terms of what you're actually supposed to do in Destiny; craps this is not, so leveraging casino etiquette and getting riled up in the process wasn't getting us anywhere.

4 minutes ago, LordFajubi said:

Well to be fair, outside mind reading, intent is almost impossible to prove. In a situation like this I think prevention is a good measure. Does it hurt anyone to roll your way, not really, does it hurt you to roll more formally? Again the answer is no. If someone can cheat this way is it not better to just disallow it and let judges focus on things that matter like oh I don't know game play mechanics? ?

I get what you are trying to say, but the perception of cheating is a much bigger deal than specific game play interactions to the integrity of the tournament.

You are right though, as I said. If I couldn't explicitly tell, I'd probably warn the player in question to stop and move on. If he persisted then it would give me ammunition to issue a game loss or DQ later.

The only place when I get competitive is at home where both my wife and I use Yahtzee cups to shake and roll our dice playing Settlers of Catan. I prefer giving players the benefit of the doubt even if they are visibly trying to manipulate things tournament or otherwise. Just not my style to get intrusive even though I have friends that basically drop their dice one inch from the ground, straight down.

Maybe I just try to avoid conflict?

28 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

Would you be okay with an opponent using it, if it was the official app?

If it's official, to each his own. I'd be fine with it

This would fall in the "unsporting conduct" category of the tournament rules. It falls under this category because it is cheating. This is subjective, and thus is up to the organizers discretion on removal of players(s) for this unsporting conduct.

Other than that there is no specific mention of "setting" dice before a roll in the tournament rules.

With casual play, that's up to you.

8 minutes ago, Keigi said:

This would fall in the "unsporting conduct" category of the tournament rules. It falls under this category because it is cheating. This is subjective, and thus is up to the organizers discretion on removal of players(s) for this unsporting conduct.

Other than that there is no specific Metion of "setting" dice before a roll in the tournament rules.

With casual play, that's up to you.

I really wanted people to think critically about this, but we're now 4 pages in and people still haven't discovered one very important fact: nowhere in the RRG does it say that a die roll must be random . It doesn't mention it under 'dice procedures' in the tournament rules either, nor does the conduct portion use dice rolling as an example. Unless I'm missing something - and I could be, I only just re-skimmed it all - there's no explicit language that clearly answers the OP's question.

1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I really wanted people to think critically about this, but we're now 4 pages in and people still haven't discovered one very important fact: nowhere in the RRG does it say that a die roll must be random. It doesn't mention it under 'dice procedures' in the tournament rules either, nor does the conduct portion use dice rolling as an example.

So your saying in the rules there is no explicit mention of disallowing cheating when it comes to dice rolling? Lord that's encouraging. Not trying to link this to the other topic but these rules get sloppier the deeper players dig.

No, the tournament rules do say that you can't cheat, it just leaves that up to the judge's discretion to determine what constitutes cheating. But I still didn't see a single instance of the word 'random' in any section that described, dealt with, or otherwise mentioned dice. Nor is there an actual definition for 'roll' or 'rolling.'

6 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I really wanted people to think critically about this, but we're now 4 pages in and people still haven't discovered one very important fact: nowhere in the RRG does it say that a die roll must be random . It doesn't mention it under 'dice procedures' in the tournament rules either, nor does the conduct portion use dice rolling as an example. Unless I'm missing something - and I could be, I only just re-skimmed it all - there's no explicit language that clearly answers the OP's question.

C'mon, WAAAGH, I know we're both sticklers for rules precision (I say that in a good way), but don't you think it's implied that dice rolls need to be random? That's a fundamental part of dice gaming.

In other words, by your argument, since the term "roll" is not defined in the RRG, I could activate my eVader and "roll" his dice by merely placing them into my dice pool with both {3 Melee} sides showing.

It's called "on the balance of probabilities".

And I'd use it in this case. You can't prove intent, but someone consistently rolling a dice in a certain semi-controlled style is attempting to - on the balance of probabilities - gain some form of advantage that isn't intended and therefore - on the balance of probabilities - be deemed a form of unsportsmanlike conduct/ cheating.

You may not like it, and there's always a small risk that the person isn't trying to gain an advantage; but it's a common concept in certain types of judicial matters.

2 minutes ago, ketemycos said:

C'mon, WAAAGH, I know we're both sticklers for rules precision (I say that in a good way), but don't you think it's implied that dice rolls need to be random? That's a fundamental part of dice gaming.

In other words, by your argument, since the term "roll" is not defined in the RRG, I could activate my eVader and "roll" his dice by merely placing them into my dice pool with both {3 Melee} sides showing.

Think most judges, players, observers would agree with this. Don't think it would hurt to inject a "random" though.

It is a functional part of dice gaming, absolutely. But at a certain point you have to realize that we're imposing the rules of other system - Ashes, Dice Masters, gambling, you name it - onto Destiny. Is it a big leap? Nope, and I agree that it should be considered cheating. I'm just giving OP the benefit of the doubt when he says that he has no prior dice related experience, so within that context isn't it reasonable to point out that the rules aren't explicitly clear?

1 minute ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

It is a functional part of dice gaming, absolutely. But at a certain point you have to realize that we're imposing the rules of other system - Ashes, Dice Masters, craps, you name it - onto Destiny. Is it a big leap? Nope, and I agree that it should be considered cheating. I'm just giving OP the benefit of the doubt when he says that he has no prior dice related experience, so within that context isn't it reasonable to point out that the rules aren't explicitly clear?

Ahhhhh, I see, you're using this as another example of how FFG needs to tighten up their rules. I really do admire the passion with which you're crusading for that. (Zero sarcasm here, I'm really glad someone appreciates a tight ruleset as much as I do.) Say no more!

3 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

No, the tournament rules do say that you can't cheat, it just leaves that up to the judge's discretion to determine what constitutes cheating. But I still didn't see a single instance of the word 'random' in any section that described, dealt with, or otherwise mentioned dice. Nor is there an actual definition for 'roll' or 'rolling.'

I know, I know, no judge can really call out a player for rolling dice well. But the intent to be fair and random is certainly called for in the dice. It would have to be pretty suspicious behavior to get a warning.

Since 'rolling' is undefined here, would you(not directed to anyone) be happy if I 'rolled' a die by flicking it? Show me where I'm breaking the rules here. Everyone just has to use common sense here. No reason to blow this out of proportion.

9 minutes ago, ketemycos said:

Ahhhhh, I see, you're using this as another example of how FFG needs to tighten up their rules. I really do admire the passion with which you're crusading for that. (Zero sarcasm here, I'm really glad someone appreciates a tight ruleset as much as I do.) Say no more!

I mean, at a certain point we could boil this down to RAI vs RAW. I only bothered to chime in on OP's behalf because his question seemed benign, and I've been on the receiving end of a good old fashioned dog pile before myself. It's perfectly within my rights to be nice on occasion, you know.

3 minutes ago, DarthBlade said:

This has been my point. If it's not tried and true what's the difference.

There are tried and true methods. If you play craps at a casino, they let you manipulate the dice before you shoot, provided that you do it with one hand and that you're doing it in the playing area. When you shoot the dice have to cross over the center of the table and the dice must make make contact with the interior wall of the table. Ignoring these routinely is going to get you thrown out of the game. These rules and the uneven surface used on the inside of a craps table are in place to prevent people from being able to manipulate the outcome of the dice.

Deliberately trying to influence dice results is cheating. Referencing the dictionary definition of strategy is being pedantic to a ridiculous degree. This thread is just pure derp.

2 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I mean, at a certain point we could boil this down to RAI vs RAW. I only bothered to chime in on OP's behalf because his question seemed benign, and I've been on the receiving end of a good old fashioned dog pile before myself. It's perfectly within my right to be nice on occasion, you know.

Heh, fair enough. In any case, everybody in this thread but OP would consider the proposed actions to be cheating, though ultimately it's up to the judge's discretion.

2 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I mean, at a certain point we could boil this down to RAI vs RAW. I only bothered to chime in on OP's behalf because his question seemed benign, and I've been on the receiving end of a good old fashioned dog pile before myself. It's perfectly within my rights to be nice on occasion, you know.

Just to go one further on devil's advocate, without proper definitions and rules and allowing judges to decide entirely what is cheating, what stops a judge from allowing a buddy to slide? Players can cry about it but the rules as written seem to have an "I AM THE LAW" approach to judges. Rules are there to protect the players.

Just now, ketemycos said:

Heh, fair enough. In any case, everybody in this thread but OP would consider the proposed actions to be cheating, though ultimately it's up to the judge's discretion.

That would only be because we failed to educate him. Saying "that's cheating!" 50 different ways doesn't fix that unless we specifically address the rules, which no one did.

33 minutes ago, WonderWAAAGH said:

I really wanted people to think critically about this, but we're now 4 pages in and people still haven't discovered one very important fact: nowhere in the RRG does it say that a die roll must be random . It doesn't mention it under 'dice procedures' in the tournament rules either, nor does the conduct portion use dice rolling as an example. Unless I'm missing something - and I could be, I only just re-skimmed it all - there's no explicit language that clearly answers the OP's question.

Bingo. Thus the reason for my post. I don't do this but some friends have thought about it. Who am I to tell them no. I have no basis as the previous posters have had none as well.

16 minutes ago, theChony said:

I know, I know, no judge can really call out a player for rolling dice well. But the intent to be fair and random is certainly called for in the dice. It would have to be pretty suspicious behavior to get a warning.

Since 'rolling' is undefined here, would you(not directed to anyone) be happy if I 'rolled' a die by flicking it? Show me where I'm breaking the rules here. Everyone just has to use common sense here. No reason to blow this out of proportion.

While I consider "technically correct" to be the best form of correct, there's also something to be said about slippery slope fallacies.

Oh, my. New and potential players are coming into this Destiny forum and seeing this as the current "HOT" topic? Debating whether throwing dice a certain way constitutes cheating if you're throwing them to get a certain result and then the conversation devolves into what constitutes a dice roll in the first place and whether the rules specific indicate how to throw dice...?

Somebody just get WAAAGH a pie...

Boysenberry, plz.

To be fair (again), DarthBlade appears to be one of those "new and potential players." What's that expression? The only dumb question is the one you didn't ask.

FFG needs a create a sensor plate that is able to indicate that every side of the die roll was visible before it finally stops to constitute a valid roll...

You lost me at boysenberry. I mean what is a boysenberry anyway...?

Wait, does not asking the question make it dumb or was it dumb in the first place? What order in the queue does the dumb question need to be asked for it to not be dumb? See I have a replacement effect that makes all my questions not dumb, even ones in my deck or in my head that I didn't ask yet. This sounds like a FFG rule or something.