1 minute ago, Elrodthealbino said:Really, the only other rule change i would like to see is for it to cost a focus token to shoot out of arc.
So....the reason people don't take blaster turret?
Game Rule Nerfs, how would you fix the rules?
1 hour ago, Clancampbell said:Which is stupid if you ask me. In the three dimensions of space ships wouldn't hit each other, and if they did, they'd be damaged. Maybe they need to add that to the game. Anyhow, I get that the game design had to have something for bumping, as you have a two dimensional surface representing space. However the intentional bumping is just dumb.
There not actually bumping, dah. They are flying so close to each other, that they cannot focus on shooting. Imagine them over top of each other. that's why it's called overlapping.
1. I just had a similar thought to this in another thread. Bumping should matter. I'd perhaps extend it to overlapping obstacles too though that could be a step too far. My take is to change it so that you skip your perform action step as currently but that you also can not be assigned focus or evade tokens for the rest of the turn.
Means Manaroo can pass TL still. Cracken and Squad Leader still work. ACD if you have a shot still works but two of the most frustrating things for me.. Infinite focus on Dengar in a Dengaroo list and x7 auto evade still exist but can be played around. Bad flying g is no longer rewarded.
Doesn't decrease the power of Dengaroo or x7 but it means they only reward you when flown well. No more bump? So what trolololol.
6 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:Matter of statistics (descriptive that is). Which tell us x7 has made the already outrageously strong imperial aces almost extinct...
With all of the anti-Soontir and stress mechanics that have been issues through FFG during the past few waves, the Empire has little else to field that is truly competitive against the Meta.
10 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:Matter of statistics (descriptive that is). Which tell us x7 has made the already outrageously strong imperial aces almost extinct...
10 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:Really not a matter of opinion. /x7 has basically killed all other imperial ships except palp shuttles and Decimators in the current high level meta.
Admittedly, some of that is because x7 counters counter non-x7s harder than other ships, but it's pretty widely accepted that x7 is too powerful, too cheap, or both.
Gentlemen, if you would direct your attention to the two quoted statements below, they explain my stance quite well.
10 hours ago, Vineheart01 said:x7 didnt kill the other imp ships, all the stupid auto damage did. I dont wanna run Vader anymore not because x7 defenders are "better" but because unlike Vader they can tank that ridiculously high dice attack with auto damage (by that i mean guaranteed to have a ton of hits/crits not unevadable damage) and then GET AWAY from it the next round and be fine, while Vader gets utterly shafted if he kturns.
Ive never felt like x7 was gamebreaking. It makes the dang thing tough as nails sure but its anything but OP. Ryad might be a little nuts specifically i'll admit.
Also, for number1 on the OP: you would shut down a TON of cards and abilities. Arvel, Oicunn, Heff, Intimidation, BoShek, etc etc. This game is designed around intentional bumping, you cant put a flat negative on it without neutering the game variety.
10 hours ago, nigeltastic said:I'm pretty sure x7 didn't kill Soontir or the inquisitor, that prize goes to sabine crew, assaj, and black market slicer tools. Seems real bad to fly ptl aces when you can die to a few coin flips from slicer or when people are just flying a good ship that incidentally can double stress you or when connor net which already wrecks you also does 1/2 - 2/3 of your hp.
X7 defenders are good but they can still be handled by other imperial aces if those aces didn't get completely crapped on by heavy counters.
Edit: clanofwolves also makes a good point above.
Edited by SabineKey
one very small change.
Torpedoes and missiles gain +1 die when attacking a large ships.
I always thought that torpedoes and missiles that require target lock to use should also allow the target lock to be used during the attack. Computer-guided ordnance should have the best possible chance to deliver maximum hits. They've had to shoehorn so many things into the game now to get ordnance to be useful when I think that simple change would have made it playable a lot sooner.
15 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:My two cents on this game and how to fix it right now. No changes to cards. Changes to rules
...
1) Whenever you move and overlap or bump another ship, you cannot gain any actions from friendly ships. Period. No Manaroo passing, no special cards that allow. No Mindlink. Notice you still get them but you have to Fly Better!!!
2) Whenever you roll 4 or more attack dice with a Primary Weapon, all crits are turned to hits. Use the same rule as heavy laser cannon, so target locked re-rolls can be crits. However, you may choose to roll less than 4 dice for any PW attack. Keeps those 4 attack primary ships good, but not 3 crits and 2 hits good at range 1, unless you get really lucky
3) Whenever you have 5 or more stress, all white maneuvers become red. Tycho suffers, but not that much.
....
No. No. No.
Besides just disagreeing with the unnecessary nerfs: 1. Some of those things you mention aren't even getting actions from other ships. 2. Oh great, so now that R1 I shot I just worked so hard for and managed to turn up kaboom, kaboom, boom, eye now only gives me three booms! **** ***! 3. Won't hurt Tycho? So you've just taken away all of his non-straight or not-speed 2 maneuvers and you're telling me that's not "much" suffering.
There certainly are a bunch of rules I'd like to throw out although most of those have to do with certain procedures.
1 hour ago, pkreynolds said:I always thought that torpedoes and missiles that require target lock to use should also allow the target lock to be used during the attack. Computer-guided ordnance should have the best possible chance to deliver maximum hits. They've had to shoehorn so many things into the game now to get ordnance to be useful when I think that simple change would have made it playable a lot sooner.
The problem with ordnance in X-wing is that when it becomes worthwhile it rapidly becomes a degenerate strategy- see trip jumpmasters. It's just a badly designed mechanic due to the way X-wing does attack and defense. It's either going to be way too good or not worthwhile.
1 hour ago, Panzeh said:The problem with ordnance in X-wing is that when it becomes worthwhile it rapidly becomes a degenerate strategy- see trip jumpmasters. It's just a badly designed mechanic due to the way X-wing does attack and defense. It's either going to be way too good or not worthwhile.
I agree, but it seems to me that they've spent a great deal of time and effort thing to make ordnance desirable - Munitions Failsafe, Extra Munitions, Guidance Chips, and then stuff like the TIE Punisher with a system upgrade (for Fire Control's free target locks) and Boost (for pointing your ordnance more effectively). It's an awful lot of design space and game mechanics Aron's making one aspect of the game work, when giving them easy rerolls from the beginning might have accomplished it a lot sooner.
1 hour ago, Panzeh said:The problem with ordnance in X-wing is that when it becomes worthwhile it rapidly becomes a degenerate strategy- see trip jumpmasters. It's just a badly designed mechanic due to the way X-wing does attack and defense. It's either going to be way too good or not worthwhile.
That would be true for most aspects of this game. Ships that are just average are not considered worth it until something pushes them over the edge (y-wings with title, then TLTs). X7s and torp boats were the latest iteration.
#.1) PWTS : First things first... what started the whole power creep was the problem of PWT's. This led to Autothrusters which are overpowered by design and necessity, which led to TLT, which messed up jousting and the whole rock/paper/scissors between turret/swarm/ace, etc etc. There needs to be an inherent rule which punishes ships for firing outside of arc, like the defender gets +1 green die.
#.2) DEFENSE STACKING and 2-DICE PRIMARIES : I liked Ficklegreendice's suggestion of making the EPT "Outmaneuver" a baseline rule. It rewards good flying (even for PWT's) AND gives 2-dice primaries a way to deal with high defense. This also helps solve the "generics feel like they can't hit anything" and no dice mods problem. Excellent idea!
#3.) STRESS : Stress stacking is a serious problem. Something is simple as "if you have 3 or more stress tokens, you may only make green maneuvers" or rolling for damage on stress 2 and above. Example, for every 2 stress tokens roll a red die and all hits deal you one hull damage (doesn't make sense for it to hurt your shields, and gives hull some advantage over shields since shields are almost universally better).
As far as baseline rules go... that's about all we need. Rest is minor changes to individual cards like giving Palpatine and Manaroo range restrictions. Global range utility is a serious problem that is both overpowered and leads to really dirty (and not fun to fight) play-styles and compositions.
Edited by f0rbiddenc00kie7 hours ago, SabineKey said:
Gentlemen, if you would direct your attention to the two quoted statements below, they explain my stance quite well.
Edit: clanofwolves also makes a good point above.
I will agree with this on strong Sabine K-Wings, but not on the rest. Asssaj can be outmanouvered and the ships we are talking about have all the tools to do so. The supposed stresspocalypse of BMSTs is a thing that never happened. These upgrades that punish aces so hard are not part of the meta.
Think about this, the Conner Net Warden has existed for a long time now, but it never drove the aces out of the meta until Sabine was released. You can still do well with Soontir and his likes, but you will do just that smidge better with the hyperefficient Defenders that also have even more margin for error.
A genuine thought I'm floating for how to make Mindlink less dominant:
Append to it 'You cannot be assigned more than one stress or focus token.'
Now the stress protection element is actually increased (everyone gets stressed, no-one can get multi-stressed) but the synergy with Manaroo is almost entirely gone, and the synergy with Manaroo is what makes every top tier Mindlink list work so well, and some of the extra action efficiency is also gone - everyone gets focus, but no-one gets double focus unless they have a way to generate one after spending it the first time.
1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:A genuine thought I'm floating for how to make Mindlink less dominant:
Append to it 'You cannot be assigned more than one stress or focus token.'
Now the stress protection element is actually increased (everyone gets stressed, no-one can get multi-stressed) but the synergy with Manaroo is almost entirely gone, and the synergy with Manaroo is what makes every top tier Mindlink list work so well, and some of the extra action efficiency is also gone - everyone gets focus, but no-one gets double focus unless they have a way to generate one after spending it the first time.
I actually think the super-lean Manaroo in paratanni is inefficient and could probably be replaced with a different mindlink ship but it would have less room for error. If you remember one of the complaints about X-wing's balance earlier was that mid-PS pilots are just not desirable enough, and here's an upgrade that absolutely fixes that(combined with FFG giving almost all mid-PS pilots EPTs).
My suggestions would be:
1) Out of arc attacks give the defender an automatic +1 green die.
2) At the end of the activation phase, if you have more than two stress and did not fly a green maneuver, you suffer one damage.
Other than that, it's all fine and dandy with me.
13 minutes ago, Panzeh said:I actually think the super-lean Manaroo in paratanni is inefficient and could probably be replaced with a different mindlink ship but it would have less room for error. If you remember one of the complaints about X-wing's balance earlier was that mid-PS pilots are just not desirable enough, and here's an upgrade that absolutely fixes that(combined with FFG giving almost all mid-PS pilots EPTs).
If this were the case, Manaroo wouldn't show up in every top tier mindlink list and she does. There's a reason for that, and it's the fact that she increases action efficiency far more than any other mindlink ship (doubles it in fact compared to the equivalent Scout) AND offers huge flexibility in terms of messing with enemy TLs and enhancing the aces' TLs.
Just now, thespaceinvader said:If this were the case, Manaroo wouldn't show up in every top tier mindlink list and she does. There's a reason for that, and it's the fact that she increases action efficiency far more than any other mindlink ship (doubles it in fact compared to the equivalent Scout) AND offers huge flexibility in terms of messing with enemy TLs and enhancing the aces' TLs.
A second focus is not always an efficient choice for a different ship and both Asajj and Fenn have better actions to be taking than focus. Manaroo's main advantage is being the most tanky ship available with an EPT slot. Most of the time in those games Manaroo is focusing and just giving one of them a second focus. Nice, but not utterly necessary.
So why not use a Scout? You'd save two points to use elsewhere.
The answer is because double focus on Fenn or Assaj without them having to take the focus action (so they can TL, evade, reposition, or spin arc) enhances their survivability and/or damage hugely. Those two points are better spent getting Manaroo, or people wouldn't do that.
Genuinely, why not use a Scout?
18 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:There not actually bumping, dah. They are flying so close to each other, that they cannot focus on shooting. Imagine them over top of each other. that's why it's called overlapping.
Yea I get it. But what happens is in reality that the low level newbie just has the balls to fly straight and do nothing at all and do his action, whereas the ace pisses itself, needs to readjust his flight so he can't focus on shooting. Not what I'd expect at all.
Either both lose their action or none of them. Just from a realistic viewpoint I'd even give the ace the action because he's the ace and not the newbie who has to concentrate on not crashing, but then again that'd warp the whole power structure so you can't really do that.
I wonder how it turns out when there'd be just a damage card for all involved fighters upon bumping.
Aces getting screwed up by newbies doing something unexpected isn't exactly unlikely.
If everyone got a damage card, bumping would be insanely powerful. Block a TIE swarm, 1 damage to you, at least 2 damage per ship to them. Yay!
1 hour ago, thespaceinvader said:So why not use a Scout? You'd save two points to use elsewhere.
The answer is because double focus on Fenn or Assaj without them having to take the focus action (so they can TL, evade, reposition, or spin arc) enhances their survivability and/or damage hugely. Those two points are better spent getting Manaroo, or people wouldn't do that.
Genuinely, why not use a Scout?
Manaroo offers situational flexibility. Oh, Fenn is in the firing arc of two different enemy ships? I'll pass him a focus so he has one for each attack. Asaaj has a good shot lined up? Here, have a target lock and a focus. Plus the Mindlink gives Manaroo that focus right back again. You don't get that with the Scout.
2 hours ago, JayDestroyaC said:I wonder how it turns out when there'd be just a damage card for all involved fighters upon bumping.
This is X-Wing, not space truckin' Destruction Derby!
5 hours ago, Admiral Deathrain said:I will agree with this on strong Sabine K-Wings, but not on the rest. Asssaj can be outmanouvered and the ships we are talking about have all the tools to do so. The supposed stresspocalypse of BMSTs is a thing that never happened. These upgrades that punish aces so hard are not part of the meta.
Think about this, the Conner Net Warden has existed for a long time now, but it never drove the aces out of the meta until Sabine was released. You can still do well with Soontir and his likes, but you will do just that smidge better with the hyperefficient Defenders that also have even more margin for error.
And Sabine was released before Imp Vets. Along with other anti-ace tricks like Zuckess, 4-LOM, and Auto Turret Ghosts. None of these directly killed Imp Aces, but it began this hostile environment towards Aces.
yes, Assaj can be outmaneuvered, but when she is flown well, that becomes a task easier said then done. You have to avoid being in an arc that can move while also worrying about her buddies. Not impossible, but it makes flying a three to four health ship dependent on PTL less appetizing, furthering the hostile environment.
BMST didn't explode like was theorized, but it is still a potential threat. Might come up once in a blue moon, but it is still there. I'm rather interested to see how well the Illicit tool box Vizago allows for works. Cause if it gains traction, BMST will see more use versus self stressing builds and left off when facing something else.
All this added up to a situation where the once hated and feared Imperial Aces became increasingly hazardous to fly. As the risks of running the likes of Interceptors went up, Imp players looked to the only other tool in their box, which was Defenders. This isn't just conjecture. Three close friends of mine are Imperial players and they fly Defenders because they can stand up to the damage out put and auto damage of the current meta. Now, there is some enjoyment in flying defenders, cause they can be fun ships to fly. But it can also survive the anti-ace stuff that was there before x7 even released.
18 hours ago, kopmcginty said:1. I just had a similar thought to this in another thread. Bumping should matter. I'd perhaps extend it to overlapping obstacles too though that could be a step too far. My take is to change it so that you skip your perform action step as currently but that you also can not be assigned focus or evade tokens for the rest of the turn.
Means Manaroo can pass TL still. Cracken and Squad Leader still work. ACD if you have a shot still works but two of the most frustrating things for me.. Infinite focus on Dengar in a Dengaroo list and x7 auto evade still exist but can be played around. Bad flying g is no longer rewarded.
Doesn't decrease the power of Dengaroo or x7 but it means they only reward you when flown well. No more bump? So what trolololol.
How's this?
" A ship overlaps another ship when executing a maneuver if its base overlaps the other ship’s base. If this happens, move the moving ship backward along the template until it is no longer overlapping another ship. While doing so, adjust the facing of the ship so that the template remains centered between both sets of guides on the ship’s base. Once the ship is no longer overlapping another ship, place it so that it is touching the last ship it overlapped. The ship must skip its “Perform Action” step this round. Then remove all Focus and Evade tokens from the ship. "
Mindlink stays strong but only if flown well, which seems fair.
Edit: Same for obstacles
Edited by Jedi1993