2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

An emotional weakness of recklessness, (connected to the Emotional Strength of Bravery), means that when you give in to the weakness, you basically ignore that discipline, vigilance, and willpower. In fact, such a character with those particular stats would likely never give in to that weakness.

IF a person is trying that hard to reject them, then they are indeed deeply rooted values. Not only that, but anyone who studies medicine has to inherently have those values, otherwise he would never have taken up that profession. The drunkenness, and womanizing would be more a symptom of burnout than any core part of who he is. Look at the titular character from House, as a good example of that. That guy was crass, mean, grumpy, but deep down, he was still a doctor and concerned about his patients, though you'd never know it by how he acted.

First off, D20 is my least favorite system, so don't go there.

Now you're completely making stuff up about a character I created.

So, you do apparently force others characters to conform to your notions.

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

An emotional weakness of recklessness, (connected to the Emotional Strength of Bravery), means that when you give in to the weakness, you basically ignore that discipline, vigilance, and willpower. In fact, such a character with those particular stats would likely never give in to that weakness.

Wow. So now wise people are just entirely perfect and can't possibly give into weakness at all?

Once again, you completely ignore Coercion and haven't responded to the comment of the wise fool - which is a literary concept that's been in existence since the Middle Ages.

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

IF a person is trying that hard to reject them, then they are indeed deeply rooted values. Not only that, but anyone who studies medicine has to inherently have those values, otherwise he would never have taken up that profession. The drunkenness, and womanizing would be more a symptom of burnout than any core part of who he is. Look at the titular character from House, as a good example of that. That guy was crass, mean, grumpy, but deep down, he was still a doctor and concerned about his patients, though you'd never know it by how he acted.

So now you're telling @Jedi Ronin how to play his character? Again, what if they aren't his core values? What if Jedi Ronin decided from the start he does not have those core values, and he is not rejecting anything?

36 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, just the opposite. I'm simply responding to a point brought up. The point being that supposedly, based upon how its written in its description, the Mystic is apparently stronger in the Force than the Consular. Personally, I disagree. Mystics may be strong in the Force, but so are Consulars, and based upon the number of Force Ratings available to in-career specs, Consulars, as a rule, appear to be stronger.

I don't think anyone's arguing that Mystics are stronger in the Force than Consulars. All the careers mention a connection to the Force, using different words to convey an overall "strong in the Force" feeling—these are, after all, heroes that we are playing. "Adept," "affinity," "strong connection," etc. Every career and specialization represents a different take on the Force: some more pragmatic, others esoteric, but none of them signify an inherently stronger connection to the Force than others. One's connection to the Force is a personal thing, independent of their approach to living life or personality (which is what careers represent, remember?). But lumping specializations in with careers is just silly. A specialization is simply the refinement of a character, not the definition of a character.

But let's bring it back into focus: we were talking about Yoda and careers. And Yoda's personality can be described by a handful of different career descriptions.

• Yoda wanted to achieve peace and harmony. He knew when to speak words of peace, and when the time for words was over. This is very Consular-like.
• He was also driven by a strong sense of responsibility and compassion—responsibility for the entire Jedi Order, and compassion for all life. His defensive combat style matched his concern for life. That is very Guardian-like.
• He constantly perceived the ebb and flow of the Force's energies between all living things. The Force was his guide and mentor, and he dwelt deeply in it. This is indicative of the Mystic.
• He travelled throughout the galaxy to aid those in need and oppose evil, found sensitives in need of training, and halted dangerous threats. At times he did this far from any meaningful support network. He was flexible and adapted quickly to his surroundings. These are the hallmarks of a Seeker.
• (Warrior and Sentinel, I feel, are pretty far off the mark for Yoda...but the other four are highly suitable for starting out a Yoda-like character)

Or we could talk about specializations?

• Obviously, Ataru Striker fits Yoda well. Hawk Bat Swoop and Saber Swarm are definitive of how he fought. He could have started out in Seeker as a Pathfinder or Hunter at the beginning of his life, before becoming a Jedi, and then returned to the in-career specializations towards the end of his life when he exiled himself to Dagobah.
• The Seer specialization also fits Yoda extremely well. "The Force is My Ally" is a direct quote, and the talent here is more accessible than it is in Sage. Not to mention the natural Mystic talent, Keen Eyed, Forewarning, Sense Danger, Sense Advantage, and Preemptive Avoidance. This tree is good for Yoda. Advisor, not so much, but a Yoda build could definitely benefit from an extensive dip into Makashi Duelist (and it's safe to say that Yoda knew Makashi, of course, having been Dooku's master).
• The Soresu Defender fits very well for all its defensive talents, and some of the Protector is good too, except for the Medicine-related talents—we don't see Yoda doing a lot of healing. Obviously Stimpacks don't exist in Star Wars films or shows, as they are a game-mechanical resource more than anything, so ignoring those talents (since they don't really fit anybody in Star Wars canon), Yoda certainly has the Circle of Shelter, Center of Being, Heightened Awareness, Force Protection, and (of course) the ever-useful Grit talent...pretty sure Yoda has all the ranks of Grit in the game. He's also an excellent field commander during the Clone Wars, so either War Leader (from the splatbook) or Peacekeeper would suit him well.
• The Niman Disciple is a must. Defensive Training, Sense Emotions, more ranks of Center of Being, and the iconic Draw Closer talent. All these are perfect for Yoda. The Sage is okay...I can imagine Yoda being very "knowledgeable," probably mostly about Galactic Lore—after all, he's been around long enough that he was probably part of lots of that lore(!)—and possibly Xenology or Warfare. Again, been around a lot of time, probably mediated lots of conflicts and seen plenty of battle. So Knowledge Specialization makes sense. So do Balance, Valuable Facts, One With the Universe, and of course the two talents found in Seer for cheaper (Preemptive Avoidance and One with the Universe). Like I said before, healing is not really Yoda's shtick, so Healer only makes sense for the Calming Aura series and possibly the Healing Trance talent...but that's a lot of Medicine-related stuff to slog through, so not the best fit there.

All that to say, Tramp, your arguments fall flat. Because, to borrow your argument here...

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You mean that womanizing drunkard? Even if he is "actively rejecting" those core values, they're still a part of him. Hence the "actively rejecting".

...Yoda is clearly "actively rejecting his core values" as a Warrior.

I don't know how you're going to be able to face yourself anymore, man...

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not only that, but anyone who studies medicine has to inherently have those values, otherwise he would never have taken up that profession.

Holy crap.

It's a good thing you can't get into a game, Tramp, because it's fairly apparent you spend little enough time in reality as it is.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

anyone who studies medicine has to inherently have those values, otherwise he would never have taken up that profession

As someone in the medical profession, this made me weep with laughter. Sorry Bubba, people do it for the money, aaaaaaall the time.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

IF a person is trying that hard to reject them, then they are indeed deeply rooted values. Not only that, but anyone who studies medicine has to inherently have those values, otherwise he would never have taken up that profession.

Oh? My RL profession is nursing (now nursing leadership/admin) rather than medicine, but that certainly falls under Healer too. So please do tell me what values I must inherently have that a lack of would have prevented me from taking up my profession.

I think the soldier: medic and colonist: doctor Mengele want to have a talk with Tramp. ;-)

To be fair he didn't even address my Healer character that is more interested in seeing how people die than he is in keeping them alive. I'm beginning to think he just doesn't see them as real characters and that they are fighting a true nature that only he understands.

Which again highlights why he may not have actualled played the game yet.

1 hour ago, Kael said:

To be fair he didn't even address my Healer character that is more interested in seeing how people die than he is in keeping them alive. I'm beginning to think he just doesn't see them as real characters and that they are fighting a true nature that only he understands.

Which again highlights why he may not have actualled played the game yet.

He has some actual quite xp heavy characters from WEG iirc. So that assumption is strange, because it would make sense if he had not played any RPGs before, not just the FFG version of SWRPG.

6 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

He has some actual quite xp heavy characters from WEG iirc. So that assumption is strange, because it would make sense if he had not played any RPGs before, not just the FFG version of SWRPG.

Perhaps his prior experiences have lead him to erroneously conclude that RPGs are really just glorified simulators with narrow parameters not unlike your typical video game RPG, and anything that acts outside those established pre-conceived parameters simply isn't able to exist.

That or he's just flat out delusional about how player-characters in RPGs actually operate.

You know, I kept thinking that I had read an account of Tramp's GMing in the past, so I finally went looking for it and found it, and hoo boy:

When asked why he felt Tramp should never GM or have any power over player characters, he said this:

Quote

There are many reasons for this strong opinion stemming from a 10 session RCR star wars game that occurred around 2005, Tramp was the GM, I was the only player of my title character Elias Windrider. Elias was started as a first level apprentice to Tramp's 16th level or so GM PC Korrath Lorren (the one he's converting and looking to play again).

One of these is that Tramp has never acknowledged that roleplaying a "tough as nails drill sergeant of a Jedi master" is not a legitimate excuse for berating a player (in character), basically he violated the DBAD rule. In my book "good roleplaying" of a character who is, to put it politely, a jerk, is not a valid excuse for being a jerk to the other people at the gaming table.

also there was also no consistency/pattern to his calls as a GM.

In the first session (before my character met Korrath who we were looking for) we landed on a planet and the pilot (an imperial Jedi friend of Korath npc) was about to open the air lock door, my character stopped him to say should we scan the atmosphere to make sure it's safe, then Tramp had him point out the window and say "didn't you see those people out there, they're fine, it's safe" which he hadn't described before, followed by a slightly sarcastic comment about it being common sense and he would have told me if it wasn't safe.

Later in the same session, my character took a shower and an NPC Zeltron jedi guardian apprentice took my clothes (and the towels) because I didn't tell him I locked the refresher door

either one of those would have been ok, but both together was problematic.

Also in the first session, we where in a cantina, looking for information, an "exceptionally large" muscular human male NPC (who's stats Tramp kept hidden, despite me asking for them, but I correctly figured he was higher level) was picking a fist fight, I saw it coming, he was putting on combat gloves, I told tramp that "I initiate combat and ready an action to punch him if he attacks," Tramp says so you attack him first and I said no (because jedi shouldn't start fights) and I repeated that I was only readying an action to attack if he attacked, which he disallowed despite it being RAW for the system. They higher level character rolled better on initiative and hit me for vitality point damage which tramp described as Elias getting a bloody nose. I used 2 force powers to enhance my attributes, Tramp got 2 rules call wrong which I asked him about because it wasn't how I understood it and he said trust me I know what I'm doing, so I did, and since he said he knew what he was doing and I figured I must have misunderstood the rules I didn't ask about attacks of opportunity which, because Elias had the martial arts feat he should get an attack of opportunity against any character without the martial arts feat who made an unarmed attack against him. Tramp who said he knew what he was doing, didn't give me attacks of opportunity so I figured the character had the martial arts feat. He described my attacks for the next 3 rounds as whiffs, and his which only did vitality point damage to me as getting black eyes etc. And I was nearly or completely out of vitality points which would mean that I was about to start taking wound damage, so I had Elias back way off, said I don't want to hurt you but I will if you force me to, and THEN draw his lightsaber.

Tramp asks "Are you sure you want to do that?" I said "yes. Wait, why are you asking?" he said "no reason." So I go ahead and have Elias draw the lightsaber.

The NPC pulls out a blaster, Elias deflects it into the ceiling he leaves without further violence. Tramp says Elias gets a dark side point I ask why, he says because I pulled out a lightsaber which escalated it to a lethal encounter, and by chaining 3 "rules" together, one of them being his interpretation of the Jedi code (fluff) meant that by drawing a lightsaber I was declaring that my character intended to kill the other guy (despite me having Elias declare otherwise first). I said he wasn't unarmed he has the martial arts feat, he said no he doesn't, I said then how come I didn't get attacks of opportunity against him I should have been winning the fight, he said first I've never used that rule so didn't think of it and you should have known he didn't have martial arts because I was rolling a d6 instead of a d4 for damage (d6 being a stand in for d3 for unarmed opponents but also used for large characters with martial arts, whereas d4 was used by medium characters with martial arts) so you didn't get the attacks of opportunity because you didn't for them, and second you were winning the fight. I said, I didn't ask because you told me you knew what you were doing. He said tough luck it's your own fault for not knowing the rules. Ok then how was Elias winning the fight? Elias hasn't landed a hit on him and he's given me a bloody nose and 2 black eyes. His answer was vitality point damage can be described as either near misses or minor bruises etc. and he had described my vitality point damage attacks against him as misses, and his against me as a bloody nose and 2 black eyes.

Somewhere in there I said d6 could also mean a the character was trained in martial arts and was a large character, and that Tramp had described the guy as being exceptionally larger. His answer was wookiees are also a lot larger than humans and their still medium, I should have know that the exceptionally large human was still a medium character and not a large character. Ok then, even if he didn't have martial arts he was still armed because he was wearing combat gloves, he said combat gloves aren't LETHAL, you drew the first lethal weapon (of course once you're out of vitality points, everything even unarmed attacks against you are "lethal" weapons, but that didn't matter."

Later I got developer clarification about the two force power rules I had questioned Tramp about and he said to trust him on because he knew what he was doing, well he was wrong and I was right about them, but the reason I hadn't asked about the attacks of opportunity was because I figured I didn't know the rules as well as I thought I did and that Tramp did, because he said he knew what he was doing. I explained time Tramp that his rule mistakes had caused me to react the way I did, essentially the universe lied to me and I believed it. His answer was it was fear which was of the dark side that made you over react.

Somewhere in there Tramp says, "It's you're own fault for not changing your action when I gave you the warning." I said you didn't give me a warning, I directly asked you why you asked if I was sure I wanted to draw the lightsaber and you said "no reason." No warning was given because you said there was no reason for you to ask if I was sure. Now 1 DSP really isn't an issue, but I wanted to make sure I didn't happen again so I asked Tramp to either provide me with a list of what actions deserved DSPs OR to give me a real warning as in "if you do that you will get a DSP" at the time. His answer was "he wouldn't do either because it's just common sense and you should already know."

Later in the first session we had to get to another part of the city and there was only one path through an alley to get there. How long will it take to go around, several hours, you're too tired to take the long route. Ok then I'll play along, I still had some trust for him as a GM, but said that I was going to stop every five feet and make an active perception check. I didn't even get to roll one perception check, he said half way down the very long alley there was an intersection and we had been ambushed there, both Elias and the female NPC were hit by blaster fire (we got ambushed by the guy who had picked a fight in the cantina), she went down on the first hit, Elias didn't but was hopelessly out numbered, and Tramp's GMPC swoops in and rescues us.

Also he used a rule about character's not being able to gain more than one level per adventure to short me on XP. He'd have his "adventure" span several sessions, across several planets, etc. etc. I was second or maybe had just turned 3rd level after 10 marathon sessions. He also prevented me from acquiring any credits so I couldn't buy a blaster and prevented me from picking up a blaster off of defeated opponents (they were confiscated by the police as evidence). So apart from a new set of clothes I was stuck with starting gear for 10 sessions. Elias nearly died on Ossus, 3 wounds left after 1 hit think, fighting a bantha with a lightsaber in session 9 I think.

And there is a long list of other grievances that I had against him as a GM (I've blocked most of them out at this point). Not the least of which HE wouldn't even agree to disagree about the DSP in the first session, at the end of session 10 he was still trying to convince me he was in the right, and HE wouldn't stop arguing about it. Tramp proudly says that he'll admit that he made a mistake when he is undeniably wrong. What he doesn't tell you that his definition of DENIABLY wrong is that he is physically capable of saying "I am not wrong" and if you don't agree he won't stop trying to convince you/argue with you about it. And after maybe 5 or so months of him harrassing me about it (including him calling me just to argue about it) I reached my limit, and called him an F-ing moron ("F-ing" being the family friendly version of what I said) over the phone and quit the game.

By the way, he had other players before me, and they lasted one, maybe two session before the quit on him. People have told me that I had the patience of Job (in contexts unrelated to playing star wars with Tramp) but it explains why I lasted 10 sessions with him as my GM and still have emotional scars from it, I didn't have therapy to help me deal with having had Tramp as my GM, but a couple times I thought about it,and no I am not joking about that. Clinically speaking I honestly think I disassociated the time I called Tramp an "F-ing moron," part of me, the part of me that is "me" was completely calm at the time and heard myself yelling it at Tramp over the phone as if someone else was saying it. That is the only time in my life that this has happened to me.

2 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

That or he's just flat out delusional about how player-characters in RPGs actually operate.

He is delusional. His only experience with the game is theoretical. He has no experience playing. And I would call into question any experience of actual play with any game system. Any RPG is at best an emmulater rather than a simulator, no matter how crunchy the mechanics. Because reality is always much different. To be so dogmatic about careers shows such inexperience. Careers, classes, archetypes are nothing more than tools to showcase your character concepts as you see them. At the end of the day your character is as how you see it. This so reminds me of alignment debates on what constituted playing and breaking your alignment. Such fun.

31 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

You know, I kept thinking that I had read an account of Tramp's GMing in the past, so I finally went looking for it and found it, and hoo boy:

When asked why he felt Tramp should never GM or have any power over player characters, he said this:

Oh how did I miss that gem. Although it just confirms my suspicions on why he hasn't been able to play.

Just now, mouthymerc said:

Oh how did I miss that gem. Although it just confirms my suspicions on why he hasn't been able to play.

Yeah. It's not that Tramp hasn't had experience playing/GMing. It's just that whenever Tramp is shown to be wrong about something, he ignores it. I pity the poor GM that had to deal with Tramp, but even more than that I pity the poor players that had to deal with him as a GM.

Wow. That has got to be one of the worst GM stories I've ever heard.

I wonder what he'll say to this.

1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

Wow. That has got to be one of the worst GM stories I've ever heard.

I wonder what he'll say to this.

Probably deny that it ever happened.

6 minutes ago, Deimos119 said:

Probably deny that it ever happened.

In that thread Tramp does go on to say that he hasn't played or GMed for about ten years. That would mean that he stopped some time after this GM experience with Elias all went down. This could be for a variety reasons including that people just got fed up with such dogmatic and inconsistent views. He tends to cherry pick things that support his viewpoint while glossing over the bigger picture. I'm not even sure that if he got to play that his viewpoint would improve because he just doesn't seem to be capable to appreciate any other viewpoint but his own.

Just now, mouthymerc said:

I'm not even sure that if he got to play that his viewpoint would improve because he just doesn't seem to be capable to appreciate any other viewpoint but his own.

Which is sad, because a key theme of Star Wars is about learning to how to understand other points of view.

Don't recall if it was earlier in this thread or in the thread about Move not being able to affect organics, but HappyDaze made what I at the time presumed was a typo (or autocorrect being it's ever helpful self) and referred to Tramp as Trump in a post.

Maybe it wasn't as much of a fluke as we thought?

Just now, Donovan Morningfire said:

Don't recall if it was earlier in this thread or in the thread about Move not being able to affect organics, but HappyDaze made what I at the time presumed was a typo (or autocorrect being it's ever helpful self) and referred to Tramp as Trump in a post.

Maybe it wasn't as much of a fluke as we thought?

Can we PLEASE leave politics out of this?

12 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Can we PLEASE leave politics out of this?

And Alternate Facts?

Just now, mouthymerc said:

And Alternate Facts?

sigh

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_facts_(law)

Well at least I think we've come to some sort of understanding. Good luck Tramp!

Sorry, alternative facts.

1 hour ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Can we PLEASE leave politics out of this?

Apart from you, who said anything about politics?

Simply watch or read anything that Trump has said prior to 2015, and you'll see that his attitude towards those who disagree with his view of the world is quite similar to that of how Tramp has responded and reacted in several threads. Throughout his life, long before he had any major political aspirations, Trump tries to browbeat his dissenters and lies with same ease that most people breath.