17 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, just the opposite. I'm simply responding to a point brought up. The point being that supposedly, based upon how its written in its description, the Mystic is apparently stronger in the Force than the Consular. Personally, I disagree. Mystics may be strong in the Force, but so are Consulars, and based upon the number of Force Ratings available to in-career specs, Consulars, as a rule, appear to be stronger.

Rigid your understanding is Tramp, Flexible you must be. Hmm. Narrative system it is, do not let crude mechanics blind you.

17 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

You are missing the point.

First you insisted that the descriptions mattered. When, on closer inspection that didn't go your way, you moved on to some other criteria. Now you want to insist which mechanical choice makes you the strongest in the force is your criteria.

And now you're going about it in a way that contradicts things you said. Now that the topic apparently is which career offers the most force rating talents we're supposed to now accept that Yoda is now not only a Consular but a Healer and Niman Disciple. For someone who looks at the whole picture you contradict yourself a lot.

When the descriptions contradict you then they no longer matter. Pages ago you said that mechanics didn't matter because being a Consular is what mattered (this is when you were trying to defend the idea that mechanically equivalent characters from different careers were not equivalent).

No, I am not missing the point. Yes, the written descriptions matter, so do the actual talents and skill available, The question is when there is an apparent conflict between the written descriptions and the skills and talents available within that career. You made the claim that the Mystic career is more forcused on the Force based solely upon its written description. However, when you look at the Force Rating talents as well, while the Mystic career is certainly strong in the Force, The Consular career is stronger. Therefore, being "strong in the Force" is not uniquely characteristic of the Mystic, and certainly not more so than the Consular.

17 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Clearly you've never played in any games with a disciplined fighter with wisdom as a dump stat, or someone who is quick on their feet, hyperaware/paranoid and has good senses but is certainly not wise.

Also, you conveniently left out Coercion.

Wise characters can have Discipline and Vigilance with good ranks, but that doesn't automatically mean Willpower = wisdom.

I never said Willpower is equal to Wisdom. I said that it was the closest thing we have. Now yes, the argument could be made that Cunning is closer, but cunning has different connotations than wisdom. Cunning, by definition is having the skill in using deceit and evasion to get what one wants, or the skill of getting what one wants through deceit (depending upon whether you're using it as an adjictive or noun). Synonyms include Crafty, wily, artful, devious, sly, scheming, designing, calculating, Machiavelian, guile, duplicity, trickery.

Quote

cun·ning

ˈkəniNG/

adjective

1. 1.

   having or showing skill in achieving one's ends by deceit or evasion.

   "a cunning look came into his eyes"

   synonyms:

   crafty, wily, artful, guileful, devious, sly, scheming, designing, calculating, Machiavellian; More
2. 2.

   NORTH AMERICAN

   attractive; quaint.

   "the baby will look cunning in that pink print"

noun

1. 1.

   skill in achieving one's ends by deceit.

   "a statesman to whom cunning had come as second nature"

   synonyms:

   guile, craftiness, deviousness, slyness, trickery, duplicity; More

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Compare/Contrast that with Wisdom:

Quote

wis·dom

ˈwizdəm/

noun

1. the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment; the quality of being wise.

   synonyms:

   sagacity, intelligence, sense, common sense, shrewdness, astuteness, smartness, judiciousness, judgment, prudence, circumspection; More

   • the soundness of an action or decision with regard to the application of experience, knowledge, and good judgment.

     "some questioned the wisdom of building the dam so close to an active volcano"

     synonyms:

     sagacity, intelligence, sense, common sense, shrewdness, astuteness, smartness, judiciousness, judgment, prudence, circumspection; More
   • the body of knowledge and principles that develops within a specified society or period.

     plural noun: wisdoms

     "the traditional farming wisdom of India"

     synonyms:

     knowledge, learning, erudition, sophistication, scholarship, philosophy; lore "the wisdom of tradition"

Based upon those definitions, Cunning really does not equate to Wisdom after all.

I know what the definition of Cunning is - I also said I don't believe we need to have a mechanical weight for wisdom, and obviously FFG agrees, since we don't have a stat that equals wisdom.

You still haven't addressed Coercion, and the fact that the RAW description for Willpower has nothing to do with wisdom. It is discipline, self-control, mental fortitude, and faith. None of that has any real relation to wisdom, and a character who isn't wise can have those things in bounds.

Further, until we have both the Consular and Mystic sourcebook released, you are comparing things with unequal weight. For all we know, once the Mystic sourcebook is released, it'll have more Force talents than Consular, and could possibly include a new system like Battle Scars or Exploits that give you new ways to use the Force or grow in mastery.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Willpower is the closest thing this game has to a Wisdom score (as opposed to Intellect, which is Intelligence). I am not saying they're synonymous. You could say Wisdom is a combination of both Willpower and Intellect, but, if I have to choose one to best emulate a Wisdom stat I'd use Willpower as the closest stand-in.

If any one of the Characteristics needs to be mapped to d20's Wisdom, I would argue that Cunning is closest.

EDIT: Missed the whole page of other posters that said this already. This thread moves fast.

21 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

I know what the definition of Cunning is - I also said I don't believe we need to have a mechanical weight for wisdom, and obviously FFG agrees, since we don't have a stat that equals wisdom.

You still haven't addressed Coercion, and the fact that the RAW description for Willpower has nothing to do with wisdom. It is discipline, self-control, mental fortitude, and faith. None of that has any real relation to wisdom, and a character who isn't wise can have those things in bounds.

Further, until we have both the Consular and Mystic sourcebook released, you are comparing things with unequal weight. For all we know, once the Mystic sourcebook is released, it'll have more Force talents than Consular, and could possibly include a new system like Battle Scars or Exploits that give you new ways to use the Force or grow in mastery.

Disicipline, self-control, mental fortitude, and faith, are all characteristics of someone who has a high wisdom. Someone who is disciplined, is prudent, and judicious, , synonyms of wisdom. Having self control, also and mental fortitude also fall into this category. Faith, fits with philosophy, a characteristic synonymous with wisdom. this is where Willpower and Wisdom correlate with each other much more than Cunning and Wisdom do. In essence, Wisdom can probably be best seen as a combination of Willpower and Intelligence.

As for your view that comparing the strength in the Force between Consulars and Mystics, goes. That is the reason why I only counted the three specializations from each contained only in the core rule book.

13 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

If any one of the Characteristics needs to be mapped to d20's Wisdom, I would argue that Cunning is closest.

EDIT: Missed the whole page of other posters that said this already. This thread moves fast.

Read the definitions of Cunning and Wisdom I provided above.

7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Disicipline, self-control, mental fortitude, and faith, are all characteristics of someone who has a high wisdom. Someone who is disciplined, is prudent, and judicious, , synonyms of wisdom. Having self control, also and mental fortitude also fall into this category. Faith, fits with philosophy, a characteristic synonymous with wisdom. this is where Willpower and Wisdom correlate with each other much more than Cunning and Wisdom do. In essence, Wisdom can probably be best seen as a combination of Willpower and Intelligence.

All of those things can be had by a person with high wisdom. They can also be had by someone who does not. I know a character who has a high Willpower and good Coercion (which you've still refused to comment on, by the way), Discipline, and Vigilance, but they are not wise at all. They're just heavily trained and imposing.

Also I know plenty of people of faith in real life who have little to no wisdom.

Willpower still does not equate to wisdom, and nothing you've said has proven otherwise.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for your view that comparing the strength in the Force between Consulars and Mystics, goes. That is the reason why I only counted the three specializations from each contained only in the core rule book.

Okay, so then toss out Teacher, Arbiter, and Ascetic for your Yoda example - if we're only considering what's in the core book. For that matter, toss out the Signature Abilities, too.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Read the definitions of Cunning and Wisdom I provided above.

If d20 has Perception keying off Wisdom, and we're comparing to traditional d20 Wisdom stat, then it would be Cunning. That's the most cut-and-dry comparison you'll find.

4 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

All of those things can be had by a person with high wisdom. They can also be had by someone who does not. I know a character who has a high Willpower and good Coercion (which you've still refused to comment on, by the way), Discipline, and Vigilance, but they are not wise at all. They're just heavily trained and imposing.

Also I know plenty of people of faith in real life who have little to no wisdom.

Willpower still does not equate to wisdom, and nothing you've said has proven otherwise.

Stark, How many times do I have to say this. I never said Wisdom and Willpower were the same thing. I said Willpower is the closest thing we have. That does not mean that they are the same thing. Don't put words in my mouth.

Secondly, As I pointed out above, Those characteristics specifically: prudence, Judiciousness, self-control, mental fortitude, etc. are all synonyms of wisdom. And all of them are covered in the Willpower skills, Discipline and Vigilance. This is why Willpower is the closest thing we have to a Wisdom score. That does not mean that they are exactly the same thing.

9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Read the definitions of Cunning and Wisdom I provided above.

Oh, it's let me use my half-rumped sources time again. OK...

Look at synonyms for Wisdom. You'll find this "sense, common sense, judgment, wisdom mean ability to reach intelligent conclusions." which would suggest that Intellect could cover Wisdom.

Cunning has " displaying keen insight" which is the definition I was using, and also this " cunning suggests the inventive use of sometimes limited intelligence in overreaching or circumventing" and " cunning suggests ingenuity and subtlety in devising, inventing, or executing"

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Those characteristics specifically: prudence, Judiciousness, self-control, mental fortitude, etc. are all synonyms of wisdom. And all of them are covered in the Willpower skills, Discipline and Vigilance. This is why Willpower is the closest thing we have to a Wisdom score. That does not mean that they are exactly the same thing.

Nope:

wisdom Synonyms

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

Oh, it's let me use my half-rumped sources time again. OK...

Look at synonyms for Wisdom. You'll find this "sense, common sense, judgment, wisdom mean ability to reach intelligent conclusions." which would suggest that Intellect could cover Wisdom.

Cunning has " displaying keen insight" which is the definition I was using, and also this " cunning suggests the inventive use of sometimes limited intelligence in overreaching or circumventing" and " cunning suggests ingenuity and subtlety in devising, inventing, or executing"

Intellect alone, no. Combined with Willpower, most certainly. Cunning, specifically is using deceit, guile, and scheming. That's not wisdom.

7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Secondly, As I pointed out above, Those characteristics specifically: prudence, Judiciousness, self-control, mental fortitude, etc. are all synonyms of wisdom. And all of them are covered in the Willpower skills, Discipline and Vigilance. This is why Willpower is the closest thing we have to a Wisdom score. That does not mean that they are exactly the same thing.

Vigilance covers mental discipline, but that has nothing to do with wisdom explicitly, not in the way Vigilance is using it. Vigilance is closer to being hyper-aware and super trained, like a professional soldier. Further, nothing in the Discipline description specifically gives any weight to your argument, especially when you can be disciplined but still not have much wisdom, or be wise and have little discipline.

Also, you can't just talk about Discipline and Vigilance, when Coercion is also a Willpower skill, which you continuously refuse to comment on.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Cunning, specifically is using deceit, guile, and scheming. That's not wisdom.

That's not the only definition. Look at some of the others. I already presented them to you, but here they are again.

• displaying keen insight
• cunning suggests the inventive use of sometimes limited intelligence in overreaching or circumventing
• cunning suggests ingenuity and subtlety in devising, inventing, or executing

Cunning, is synonymous with Crafty and Artful which would definitely be words to describe an intellect. Your definitions are too rigid Tramp, bend you must.

5 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

That's not the only definition. Look at some of the others. I already presented them to you, but here they are again.

• displaying keen insight
• cunning suggests the inventive use of sometimes limited intelligence in overreaching or circumventing
• cunning suggests ingenuity and subtlety in devising, inventing, or executing

You know, after looking at these definitions I provided, it's no wonder to me that Tramp can't grasp them as they are likely alien concepts to him.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

Nope:

wisdom Synonyms

Synonyms

discernment, insight, perception, perceptiveness, perceptivity, sagaciousness, sagacity, sageness, sapience

Synonyms of Wisdom, as provided by the definitions I posted above (found using Google Search):

Quote

synonyms:

sagacity, intelligence, sense, common sense, shrewdness, astuteness, smartness, judiciousness, judgment, prudence, circumspection; More

1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

Vigilance covers mental discipline, but that has nothing to do with wisdom explicitly, not in the way Vigilance is using it. Vigilance is closer to being hyper-aware and super trained, like a professional soldier. Further, nothing in the Discipline description specifically gives any weight to your argument, especially when you can be disciplined but still not have much wisdom, or be wise and have little discipline.

Also, you can't just talk about Discipline and Vigilance, when Coercion is also a Willpower skill, which you continuously refuse to comment on.

Actually, no, you can't be wise if you lack Discipline. Only fools lack discipline. A lack of discipline is recklessness, and wise people are never reckless. recklessness is the antithesis of wisdom.

Tramp you keep contradicting yourself.

You say the descriptions matter. Then they don't when they say something you don't like. Then mechanics matter. Except they didn't pages ago because now we're back to the original reasons you didn't like that argument. You say it's because they all matter to you but when there's a conflict then you get to ignore the things you don't like. It's curious that the definition of "in conflict" perfectly coincides with the things you find inconvenient to explain away.

You're twisting yourself in knots.

Why won't you tell me how my doctor is a Consular?

14 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, no, you can't be wise if you lack Discipline. Only fools lack discipline. A lack of discipline is recklessness, and wise people are never reckless. recklessness is the antithesis of wisdom.

What? Yes, you can.

Have you ever heard the concept of the wise fool? Further, you can have Discipline 5, Vigilance 5, and Willpower 5, but then have an emotional weakness of Recklessness. But, then does that make the character automatically not wise?

Also, can you please comment on Coercion.

4 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Tramp you keep contradicting yourself.

You say the descriptions matter. Then they don't when they say something you don't like. Then mechanics matter. Except they didn't pages ago because now we're back to the original reasons you didn't like that argument. You say it's because they all matter to you but when there's a conflict then you get to ignore the things you don't like. It's curious that the definition of "in conflict" perfectly coincides with the things you find inconvenient to explain away.

You're twisting yourself in knots.

Why won't you tell me how my doctor is a Consular?

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You mean that womanizing drunkard? Even if he is "actively rejecting" those core values, they're still a part of him. Hence the "actively rejecting".

<snip>

Did you not read that bit?

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Did you not read that bit?

But what if they aren't his core values? What if @Jedi Ronin only chose Consular because it was mechanically what matched his concept closest?

I look forward to the day FFG hires Tramp so that he can make the game the way it's supposed to be as opposed to the game they actually gave us, which seems to not match up to the wonderous shoehorn of d20 mechanics and concepts that he seems to push.

4 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

What? Yes, you can.

Have you ever heard the concept of the wise fool? Further, you can have Discipline 5, Vigilance 5, and Willpower 5, but then have an emotional weakness of Recklessness. But, then does that make the character automatically not wise?

Also, can you please comment on Coercion.

An emotional weakness of recklessness, (connected to the Emotional Strength of Bravery), means that when you give in to the weakness, you basically ignore that discipline, vigilance, and willpower. In fact, such a character with those particular stats would likely never give in to that weakness.

Just now, StarkJunior said:

But what if they aren't his core values? What if @Jedi Ronin only chose Consular because it was mechanically what matched his concept closest?

IF a person is trying that hard to reject them, then they are indeed deeply rooted values. Not only that, but anyone who studies medicine has to inherently have those values, otherwise he would never have taken up that profession. The drunkenness, and womanizing would be more a symptom of burnout than any core part of who he is. Look at the titular character from House, as a good example of that. That guy was crass, mean, grumpy, but deep down, he was still a doctor and concerned about his patients, though you'd never know it by how he acted.

Just now, Kael said:

I look forward to the day FFG hires Tramp so that he can make the game the way it's supposed to be as opposed to the game they actually gave us, which seems to not match up to the wonderous shoehorn of d20 mechanics and concepts that he seems to push.

First off, D20 is my least favorite system, so don't go there.

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Did you not read that bit?

I did miss that.

I don't know what it has to do with the doctor character.

This conversation is fun though, right?

Ohh I have an idea for the next totally off-topic and circular argument: The difference between Hired Gun Heavy and Soldier Heavy. Or about how the Colonist Doctor spec tree has an entire pathway all about Melee combat when Doctors are supposed to heal people? No, no, those are boring.

Ah, I got it. How exactly does Performer fit within the concept of the Colonist Career? Or Trader with the Explorer Career? Why does Hired Gun Bodyguard not have the Improved or Supreme Bodyguard talent when Bodyguard is the Spec's name?

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

First off, D20 is my least favorite system, so don't go there.

And yet you try to shoe horn sooooooo many concepts and lore from d20 era.