Also, Tramp you still haven't explained how my "don't care about any of that harmony and negotiation and well-being stuff" Consular/Healer doctor works with your understanding of Careers.

That's more at the heart of our discussion here. You're insisting that a Career demands certain things. Which is why you insist Yoda must absolutely be a Consular. We can argue for eternity about "what is Yoda?" but not so about my hypothetical doctor character. But the same principles apply.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

FFG gave each "Jedi" career a lightsaber style spec, with each spec tying into an attribute which that career is known for (although how Guardians are known for their Intellect is a good question), with Consulars having Willpower (wisdom) as their key attribute.

For a man that relies so much on the RAW I'm surprised you didn't notice that Willpower has nothing to do with Wisdom in this system. It doesn't really mention much of anything that has to do with Wisdom.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

Mystic, Warrior, and Seeker seem to be offshoots of Consular, Guardian, and Sentinel respectively, though they can also be seen as branches of the old Force Adept class, particularly Mystic and Seeker.

Based on what evidence? You seem to be shoehorning in a bunch of Legends and EU stuff into how FFG went about making their classes with no form of supporting evidence to show that.

It's worth noting that despite the names applied none of the careers are meant to represent Jedi training. The are meant to represent a set of Force related themes that may or may not be tied to being a Jedi. As such a character using the Consular career is as much a Jedi Guardian as the Guardian is. Ignoring how this game is set up only undermines your point and credibility.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

The examples I just game are all from canon material.

Don't recall any of that in the movies or the cartoon show but ok. I guess we have different ideas on canon. I'll go with the offical defintion.

Even going the other way, why would.you say that Yoda doesn't have a high Presence?

Just now, HappyDaze said:

Even going the other way, why would.you say that Yoda doesn't have a high Presence?

"Away put your weapon, I mean you no harm!" Yoda obviously has a high Presence. The hallmark of a Consular.

"Mine! mine! mine! mine! Mine or help you I will not!" Yoda obviously has a high Willpower. The hallmark of the Consular.

But seriously, he could. If I was creating an NPC Yoda I'd give him a pretty high Presence.

The irony here is that Tramp has been insisting that Yoda can't be a Mystic because mystics are known for their charisma and Yoda must be a Consular because Yoda is a master negotiator and teacher. Which means he's got to have a high Presence.

9 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Which means he's got to have a high Presence.

Exactly.

I just went and looked and Charm and Negotiation - the most common 'honorable negotiator' skills both key off Presence. Then you have Deception with Cunning and Coercion with Willpower - which definitely means it's not wisdom, and Coercion is the only outwardly 'active' skill that keys off Willpower. The other two are more internal - Discipline and Vigilance.

Willpower is the closest thing this game has to a Wisdom score (as opposed to Intellect, which is Intelligence). I am not saying they're synonymous. You could say Wisdom is a combination of both Willpower and Intellect, but, if I have to choose one to best emulate a Wisdom stat I'd use Willpower as the closest stand-in.

If you look at the Mystic career, it, and its specs have more of their career skills as interpersonal skills than Consular. Mystic and its specs have Charm, Coercion, Deception, Negotiation. Consular, and its specs only have Leadership, Negotiation (base career), and Charm (Sage). Consular and its specs have more knowledge based skills than Mystic and its specs. Consular has Education, Lore, Xenology, Medicine, Astrogation. Mystic has Outer Rim Lore, and Streetwise.

Also, Consular with 24 Force talents, has more Force talents than Mystic does at 16 Force talents, even just counting the specs in the core book. So which one is really more "in tune" with the Force.

Also, the mystic career is specifically described as being more religious and shamanic, for the most part, or people with political power (or power behind the throne).

When you look at the total number of specs Yoda is likely to have (while certainly not a direct indicator of career), the majority of his specs would come from Consular. Only two of the Consular specs (healer, Niman Disciple) don't suit Yoda, while only one Mystic spec (seer) even remotely suits him at all; none of the others do. And Arbiter certainly looks like it fits as a good starting point for him. So no, I don't see how Mystic fits Yoda better than Consular. Certainly not unless you're looking at Mystic as a direct subclass of Consular.

17 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Willpower is the closest thing this game has to a Wisdom score (as opposed to Intellect, which is Intelligence). I am not saying they're synonymous. You could say Wisdom is a combination of both Willpower and Intellect, but, if I have to choose one to best emulate a Wisdom stat I'd use Willpower as the closest stand-in.

How?? How can you possibly come to this conclusion? The only skills that key off Willpower are Coercion, Discipline, and Vigilance. How do any of them have anything to do with wisdom?

11 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Also, Consular with 24 Force talents, has more Force talents than Mystic does at 16 Force talents, even just counting the specs in the core book. So which one is really more "in tune" with the Force.

How, exactly, do careers become "in tune" with the Force...?

Or is the presumption that 1) a being in a certain career is supposed to buy every single talent within their career's specializations, and that 2) the measure of their "in-tuneness" with the Force is predicated on how many Force talents they have?

Oh, so we can now ignore the actual Career descriptions when they don't say what you want them to say. In that case you look at the talents and decide that it doesn't really fit.

Is it too much to ask that you pick a single standard and stick to it?

Also you can't really compare Consular and Mystic yet in that vein - not when neither sourcebook has been released. Further, as @awayputurwpn stated, you can buy a Specialization and then only grab like three talents if that is your wish.

Actually Cunning is the thing closest to D20 style wisdom.

2 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Actually Cunning is the thing closest to D20 style wisdom.

Yeah, if we have to make the comparison, I'd agree. Though, I don't think it's necessary for a system to have a 'wisdom' stat. You can easily play a wise character without having a stat to specifically spell it out mechanically.

1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

Yeah, if we have to make the comparison, I'd agree. Though, I don't think it's necessary for a system to have a 'wisdom' stat. You can easily play a wise character without having a stat to specifically spell it out mechanically.

Absolutely

Just now, StarkJunior said:

Also you can't really compare Consular and Mystic yet in that vein - not when neither sourcebook has been released. Further, as @awayputurwpn stated, you can buy a Specialization and then only grab like three talents if that is your wish.

I have had players do that exact thing. Start in a spec, buy 3 talents, buy a new spec and continue on the second one further.

I've also had players buy new specs usually based upon their experiences in the story we're all creating and how their character would react to it.

I have a player that just today decided to use their one respec (I allow all players to get a single respec with their character if they are in some way dissatisfied with the chararcter or wish to pursue another path) because as they are an Ace:Pilot and just lost their eyesight, they'd rather pursue a different life course (even though the character will be getting cybernetic eyes). So the player will end up losing their Piloting Talents & won't have as many skill ranks in Piloting as before but just like real life, your skills & knowledge in a subject can diminish if you neglect them. The player is pursuing a more combat-focused role, in which the character is going to be extremely protective of their allies (Soldier: Vanguard), which works towards their Motivation of Relationship: Comrades.

7 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

How, exactly, do careers become "in tune" with the Force...?

Or is the presumption that 1) a being in a certain career is supposed to buy every single talent within their career's specializations, and that 2) the measure of their "in-tuneness" with the Force is predicated on how many Force talents they have?

That's a very good question, yet, the Mystic Career, apparently is "supposed" to have a stronger connection in the Force than the Consular career, based upon the opening text of its career description. However, if the number of Force talents is any indication of how strong of a connection in the Force a given career is "supposed" to have, Consular wins hands down.

4 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Oh, so we can now ignore the actual Career descriptions when they don't say what you want them to say. In that case you look at the talents and decide that it doesn't really fit.

Is it too much to ask that you pick a single standard and stick to it?

The standard I have is looking at the career as a whole, not just one aspect of it. This includes the written description as well as skills, talents, etc. and how they all match up.

3 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Also you can't really compare Consular and Mystic yet in that vein - not when neither sourcebook has been released. Further, as @awayputurwpn stated, you can buy a Specialization and then only grab like three talents if that is your wish.

Yes, you can compare them. Especially when trying to determine what career a given canon character should be. This whole side discussion has been a comparison/contrast of careers and how they each fit Yoda. And the issue isn't whether or not someone can take a spec, only for a couple of talents from it. The question is whether or not Yoda would have those specs and talents, and which career he would have based upon that. And looking at all of the specs currently revealed, Yoda certainly would have more Consular specs, and would have started out with Consular specs, only taking one or two out of career specs, and would be pretty much maxed out in each Consular spec.

2 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Actually Cunning is the thing closest to D20 style wisdom.

1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

Yeah, if we have to make the comparison, I'd agree. Though, I don't think it's necessary for a system to have a 'wisdom' stat. You can easily play a wise character without having a stat to specifically spell it out mechanically.

That's certainly a possibility. As for not "needing" a mechanical measure, I disagree.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for not "needing" a mechanical measure, I disagree.

Okay, so -

29 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

How?? How can you possibly come to this conclusion? The only skills that key off Willpower are Coercion, Discipline, and Vigilance. How do any of them have anything to do with wisdom?

- nothing to say to this?

7 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Okay, so -

- nothing to say to this?

Discipline and Vigilance are traits anyone with a high wisdom would have. Part of being wise is being disciplined, and vigilant about what's going on around you, what people say and do, etc. as well as having good common sense and "spiritual understanding".

You don't look at it as a whole. You cherry pick. You emphasize the parts you like and ignore the rest. You even read into it things that are not there.

You insist particular lines have great meaning (Mystics are charismatic) then discard or "disprove" those you don't like (Mystics are strong in the force and master a broad range of force powers).

You will describe Yoda being a mystic then declare that it's a "hallmark of a Consular".

Then you come up with some new standard that number of force Talents matters.

So, instead of endlessly debating "what is Yoda" why don't you tell me how my doctor character is possible with your understanding of Careers?

And no, the number of force Talents does not indicate your strong connection to the force. If you want a mechanical representation that would be your Force Rating and then force powers.

Mystic also has the only way in the game I'm aware of to reroll Force dice which is pretty potent.

12 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

You don't look at it as a whole. You cherry pick. You emphasize the parts you like and ignore the rest. You even read into it things that are not there.

You insist particular lines have great meaning (Mystics are charismatic) then discard or "disprove" those you don't like (Mystics are strong in the force and master a broad range of force powers).

You will describe Yoda being a mystic then declare that it's a "hallmark of a Consular".

Then you come up with some new standard that number of force Talents matters.

So, instead of endlessly debating "what is Yoda" why don't you tell me how my doctor character is possible with your understanding of Careers?

You mean that womanizing drunkard? Even if he is "actively rejecting" those core values, they're still a part of him. Hence the "actively rejecting".

6 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

And no, the number of force Talents does not indicate your strong connection to the force. If you want a mechanical representation that would be your Force Rating and then force powers.

Mystic also has the only way in the game I'm aware of to reroll Force dice which is pretty potent.

And, if you count just the number of Force Rating talents, Consular still wins out. Just counting the specs in the core book, Consular gets four Force Rating talents (one from Healer, one from Niman Disciple, two from Sage), Mystic only has three Force Rating talents (One from Adviser, two from Seer).

14 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's a very good question, yet, the Mystic Career, apparently is "supposed" to have a stronger connection in the Force than the Consular career, based upon the opening text of its career description. However, if the number of Force talents is any indication of how strong of a connection in the Force a given career is "supposed" to have, Consular wins hands down.

You talk of careers as if the career itself has a connection to the Force—and you're trying to disprove something isn't found anywhere in the text.

This debate is delving further into nonsense as myopic reasoning maintains its stranglehold.

1 minute ago, awayputurwpn said:

You talk of careers as if the career itself has a connection to the Force—and you're trying to disprove something isn't found anywhere in the text.

This debate is delving further into nonsense as myopic reasoning maintains its stranglehold.

Actually, just the opposite. I'm simply responding to a point brought up. The point being that supposedly, based upon how its written in its description, the Mystic is apparently stronger in the Force than the Consular. Personally, I disagree. Mystics may be strong in the Force, but so are Consulars, and based upon the number of Force Ratings available to in-career specs, Consulars, as a rule, appear to be stronger.

5 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

You talk of careers as if the career itself has a connection to the Force—and you're trying to disprove something isn't found anywhere in the text.

This debate is delving further into nonsense as myopic reasoning maintains its stranglehold.

Y'all could always just walk away from the conversation. I feel like people have made their points about 20 times over by now. It's not like walking away from the conversation isn't impossible, ya did it with the Rules Lawyering about the Move power topic. It's since passed into page 2...

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And, if you count just the number of Force Rating talents, Consular still wins out. Just counting the specs in the core book, Consular gets four Force Rating talents (one from Healer, one from Niman Disciple, two from Sage), Mystic only has three Force Rating talents (One from Adviser, two from Seer).

You are missing the point.

First you insisted that the descriptions mattered. When, on closer inspection that didn't go your way, you moved on to some other criteria. Now you want to insist which mechanical choice makes you the strongest in the force is your criteria.

And now you're going about it in a way that contradicts things you said. Now that the topic apparently is which career offers the most force rating talents we're supposed to now accept that Yoda is now not only a Consular but a Healer and Niman Disciple. For someone who looks at the whole picture you contradict yourself a lot.

When the descriptions contradict you then they no longer matter. Pages ago you said that mechanics didn't matter because being a Consular is what mattered (this is when you were trying to defend the idea that mechanically equivalent characters from different careers were not equivalent).

22 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Discipline and Vigilance are traits anyone with a high wisdom would have. Part of being wise is being disciplined, and vigilant about what's going on around you, what people say and do, etc. as well as having good common sense and "spiritual understanding".

Clearly you've never played in any games with a disciplined fighter with wisdom as a dump stat, or someone who is quick on their feet, hyperaware/paranoid and has good senses but is certainly not wise.

Also, you conveniently left out Coercion.

Wise characters can have Discipline and Vigilance with good ranks, but that doesn't automatically mean Willpower = wisdom.