22 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

He was still a Consular though, however "barely" it was. As for whether or not it is a "canon" concept, yes, it is, certainly as far as this game goes. Regardless of whether or not the term has been used in the movies or not is irrelevant. It is a term still used in SW lore, not just material written pre-2014.

Think about this, if everything produced after 2014 is considered part of the new canon, that should logically mean that the newest updates to the SWTOR game from 2015 and 2016--Shadows of Revan (Dec 1014), Knights of the Fallen Empire (Oct 2015), and Knights of the Eternal Throne (Dec 2016)--are also a part of canon. If this is the case, then that is clear evidence of the Jedi Consular still being a part of the new canon. The same with Force and Destiny, which was also produced after 2014, and it too establishes Jedi Consulars.

Okay, so by that logic, if I start out with Guardian or Mystic and take 11 specializations and one of them is from Consular, he's still a Consular, right?

And, no, it is not irrelevant if it has been used in the movies. That's one of the defining things that sets it as canon. It doesn't matter if it is used in Star Wars lore from EU/Legends - it is not canon.

As to your second point, I can speak from personal and professional knowledge that SWTOR is absolutely, 100%, irrefutably not canon. Neither is Force and Destiny. The RPGs have never been the same level as the films, even when we had the canon levels, which has since been done away with.

I'm sorry, but you can't just cherry pick what you want to be relevant and what is irrelevant when it comes to canon.

5 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Okay, so by that logic, if I start out with Guardian or Mystic and take 11 specializations and one of them is from Consular, he's still a Consular, right?

And, no, it is not irrelevant if it has been used in the movies. That's one of the defining things that sets it as canon. It doesn't matter if it is used in Star Wars lore from EU/Legends - it is not canon.

As to your second point, I can speak from personal and professional knowledge that SWTOR is absolutely, 100%, irrefutably not canon. Neither is Force and Destiny. The RPGs have never been the same level as the films, even when we had the canon levels, which has since been done away with.

I'm sorry, but you can't just cherry pick what you want to be relevant and what is irrelevant when it comes to canon.

Nope. Still a Guardian.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Nope. Still a Guardian.

Right, so then he's not a Consular in Saga, either.

Also, way to blow by my other statements. No response?

Except that Canon is not just the movies. It's everything produced after 2014, at least according to the official statements by Lucasfilm.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except that Canon is not just the movies. It's everything produced after 2014, at least according to the official statements by Lucasfilm.

https://gamerant.com/star-wars-old-republic-canon/

as with everything in the legends category, the powers that be can pick and choose what they want to use as canon, but until such a time as any specific part is mentioned in a canon production it is not part of the official canon.

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except that Canon is not just the movies. It's everything produced after 2014, at least according to the official statements by Lucasfilm.

SWTOR is a notable exception to that - again, I have professional knowledge regarding it.

Gah, Ghatt beat me to it!

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yoda in OCRB/RCRB, starts out as a Jedi Consular. His PotJSB stats then give him levels in Jedi Master and Jedi Instructor. So, no, Yoda did not start out as something else.

You completely sidestepped my question. It was about game mechanics, not what Yoda's "official" OCR/RCR stats were.

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It's a bit of both actually. A person's core character and values are pretty well fixed by the time they reach adulthood. There has been actual studies on this. Given this, the game mechanics also assume that characters have a core character and overall outlook that does not really change, but can grow. It's who they are at heart; their Essence, so to speak. And this is what the Career is. Perhaps "Career" was not the best choice of terms they could have used to represent the concept.

The thing is, while it may be true that real life people don't change the core of what they are, few people truly know their core either. Game mechanics may attempt to duplicate the core but how can the truly represent something that we do not always have a real grasp on for ourselves? More to the point how can make believe fictional characters truly be that static? I've been gaming for 20 years and I typically (and I would wager most gamers are similar) don't have a true grasp of what the character's core is until I've played him a bit and discovered how they respond to the game world.

Furthermore what do you do with characters that don't fit that mold? What career would assign my Healer who is more focused on seeing how people die and how he can control that than he is on actually healing them or relieving them of pain?

Eh, nm.

Since we can just say "studies prove it" then studies also prove people can change, sometimes drastically, when exposed to traumatic life events. Considering that most PCs will inflict death and be subject to critical injuries along with all of the wild crap that accompanies a PC's life, these people are very likely to experience change at their core. Studies say...

12 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Except that Canon is not just the movies. It's everything produced after 2014, at least according to the official statements by Lucasfilm.

Tramp, you've been asked repeatedly to produce any evidence from canon - any of the movies or animated series (or even the latest arch in the Star Wars comics) of Yoda being a consular even in concept. You have not done so. You've responded at length to many queries but this one you have not. You just keep repeating that it's so - lumping in canon with Legends/EU.

I've read the Consular and Mystic descriptions and for anyone who's conception of Yoda comes primarily from the movies and secondarily from Clone Wars and Rebels like me (I'm not that young but I never got into the EU) then Consular doesn't really describe Yoda nearly as much as Mystic. Consular describes a generic Jedi philosophy which no doubt Yoda has but it's primary focus - fluff wise - is seeking harmony among disputing factions, diplomacy and scholarship (the upcoming Teacher spec looks like it might be the first Consular spec to actually touch a major canon aspect of Yoda). Mystic is focused on a strong connection to the force, having a mastery of a wide range of force powers, and looking into the future and listening to the force (Seer) and being a wise mentor (Advisor). It's obvious which one describes Yoda better. I challenge you to show me in canon where we see Yoda or even have him described as a master diplomat or scholar.

Now, I don't think your rigid view of Career choice holds up if you actually read the whole "choose a career" section or have listened to the devs talk about this at all, and you're certainly entitled to your view and can play the game any way you want but no one is beholden to your views. People do in fact play this game counter to your views on how Careers work and it works out great. It works narratively and mechanically. So even if I think Mystic is the best fit for Yoda you can in fact start him in pretty much any career and still create an authentic Yoda. You also never seemed to explain how my Consular/Healer doctor could actually work with your understanding of how Careers work.

7 hours ago, Kael said:

The thing is, while it may be true that real life people don't change the core of what they are, few people truly know their core either. Game mechanics may attempt to duplicate the core but how can the truly represent something that we do not always have a real grasp on for ourselves? More to the point how can make believe fictional characters truly be that static? I've been gaming for 20 years and I typically (and I would wager most gamers are similar) don't have a true grasp of what the character's core is until I've played him a bit and discovered how they respond to the game world.

Furthermore what do you do with characters that don't fit that mold? What career would assign my Healer who is more focused on seeing how people die and how he can control that than he is on actually healing them or relieving them of pain?

I've been gaming about 25 years and that's been my experience - I don't really know the character really well until I've played them for a bit. I may have a really good idea where they start out mechanically (or even where they're going to go mechanically) but their personality, views, etc certainly evolve as I play the character. Character creation is like creating a prototype and until you actually play the character - in a group and up against a story and events and NPCs - you're not certain which parts will stay or go or be altered or added.

20 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I've been gaming about 25 years and that's been my experience - I don't really know the character really well until I've played them for a bit. I may have a really good idea where they start out mechanically (or even where they're going to go mechanically) but their personality, views, etc certainly evolve as I play the character. Character creation is like creating a prototype and until you actually play the character - in a group and up against a story and events and NPCs - you're not certain which parts will stay or go or be altered or added.

Also a long time gamer, and I've had a number of characters change and evolve from where they started to where they ended after years, months, or even sometimes just weeks of play.

While some of those changes were extreme examples and some of those less so, but pretty much every character that I've played for more than a few weeks has had some degree of change involved. Sometimes it's drastic events in the campaign (seeing your beloved be sadistically brutalized for a lark tends to change one's outlook from chilled happy-go-lucky dude to sadistic vigilante, especially when your own death is involved), sometimes it's just from playing the character (my socially inept superhero becomes a lot more personable due to the sheer volume of wisecracks he makes), and sometimes its just a number of little things that add up to making the character be someone other than who I originally intended.

Even the mechanical stuff can change, as you come to find out that what you thought was a good starting set-up just doesn't gel with the character. That's why a number of RPGs suggest that if a player really isn't happy with how the character performs mechanically, that the player be allowed to rebuild the PC.

OK, first, The first thing Yoda is known for is his wisdom, then his powers in the Force, and then his skill with a lightsaber in that order. That is the hallmark of a Consular.

An example of his skill as a great negotiator is his numerous involvements in negotiations between the Wookiees and the Trandoshans, according to Star Wars Complete Locations,as stated in this passage from Wookieepedia citing that book:

Quote

Yoda would visit Kashyyyk on several other occasions prior to the Battle of Kashyyyk, serving as Jedi negotiator in many incidents involving the Wookiees and their Trandoshan neighbors. This earned him the ancient title of "Defender of the Home Tree", as well as becoming a member of many Wookiee leaders' and all the inhabitants of Kachirho's honour families.^[16]

As a teacher, he was responsible for teaching all of the Younglings the basics of the Force (and lightsaber) before they were taken on as Padawans by other masters, as well as training his own Padawans over his 800 years as a teacher. It was said he trained over 20,000 Jedi.

As evidenced in AotC, and RotS, Yoda is well known for his meditations on the Force, gaining great insight and even visions through the Force. It was in one such vision that he heard the spirit of Qui Gon Jinn and sensed Anakin's pain and rage. and it was through other such meditations that he again heard from Qiui Gon and began learning the secrets of becoming a Force Ghost (Jedi Immortality). And he was actively able to call upon Force visions, not simply have them spontaneously. This is another hallmark of the Consular.

We've already gone into his dealings with King Katuunko and Ventriss, and how he taught the three Clone troopers, who were with him on that mission, about their individuality within the Force. It should also be noted that many of the droids--whole squads--he defeated in that impromptu "challenge" were destroyed by Yoda without the use of his lightsaber. He did is with the Force alone.

During his encounters with the Force Priestesses, one of the tests he underwent (which was actually caused by Palpatine), showed his selflessness in choosing to save Anakin fro falling over defeating Sidious in combat. This same drive to put the lives and safety of others over combat with an enemy is also exhibited in AotC, when Yoda elects to catch that falling column to prevent it from falling on Anakin and Obi-Wan, thus allowing Dooku to escape. This too is the hallmark of a Consular.

And, even during his time in exile, he kept an eye on, and even helped tutor other survivors of Order 66 through the Force, including Kanan Jarrus and Ezra Bridger.

Teacher, sage, negotiator, all of these are hallmarks of Yoda as a Consular. All of them evident in the canon, from the prequels, through Clone Wars, and Rebels, and Complete Locations.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

OK, first, The first thing Yoda is known for is his wisdom, then his powers in the Force, and then his skill with a lightsaber in that order. That is the hallmark of a Consular.

I would cast a character known for wisdom, primarily, as a Mystic not a Consular. The same goes for someone knowing for their powers in the Force. That sounds more like a Mystic than a Consular. For his skills with the lightsabre though ..... that could be any career, though Seeker would be more appropriate considering how Yoda fights in the movies.

Nothing you've listed are hallmarks of the Consular. At least not the Consular as constructed by this game.

18 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

OK, first, The first thing Yoda is known for is his wisdom, then his powers in the Force, and then his skill with a lightsaber in that order. That is the hallmark of a Consular.

An example of his skill as a great negotiator is his numerous involvements in negotiations between the Wookiees and the Trandoshans, according to Star Wars Complete Locations,as stated in this passage from Wookieepedia citing that book:

As a teacher, he was responsible for teaching all of the Younglings the basics of the Force (and lightsaber) before they were taken on as Padawans by other masters, as well as training his own Padawans over his 800 years as a teacher. It was said he trained over 20,000 Jedi.

As evidenced in AotC, and RotS, Yoda is well known for his meditations on the Force, gaining great insight and even visions through the Force. It was in one such vision that he heard the spirit of Qui Gon Jinn and sensed Anakin's pain and rage. and it was through other such meditations that he again heard from Qiui Gon and began learning the secrets of becoming a Force Ghost (Jedi Immortality). And he was actively able to call upon Force visions, not simply have them spontaneously. This is another hallmark of the Consular.

We've already gone into his dealings with King Katuunko and Ventriss, and how he taught the three Clone troopers, who were with him on that mission, about their individuality within the Force. It should also be noted that many of the droids--whole squads--he defeated in that impromptu "challenge" were destroyed by Yoda without the use of his lightsaber. He did is with the Force alone.

During his encounters with the Force Priestesses, one of the tests he underwent (which was actually caused by Palpatine), showed his selflessness in choosing to save Anakin fro falling over defeating Sidious in combat. This same drive to put the lives and safety of others over combat with an enemy is also exhibited in AotC, when Yoda elects to catch that falling column to prevent it from falling on Anakin and Obi-Wan, thus allowing Dooku to escape. This too is the hallmark of a Consular.

And, even during his time in exile, he kept an eye on, and even helped tutor other survivors of Order 66 through the Force, including Kanan Jarrus and Ezra Bridger.

Teacher, sage, negotiator, all of these are hallmarks of Yoda as a Consular. All of them evident in the canon, from the prequels, through Clone Wars, and Rebels, and Complete Locations.

Nice magic trick you've got there Tramp. Yoda does something? It's the hallmark of a consular! That's not an argument. That's not demonstrating that Yoda as seen in canon is being a "consular".

Does that ability actually show up in Mystic instead of Consular or elsewhere or fit the fluff of Mystic better than Consular? Well it's still the hallmark of the consular.

Yeah, the canon references Yoda as a great teacher. And main characters recognize this, as their own teacher/mentor and he trains Luke. I said Teacher was the only Consular spec that actually hit on something we see Yoda doing.

Wisdom is not the hallmark of a Consular. Consular's can certainly be wise but wisdom isn't the purview of any particular Career. There's a bunch of specs out there that can be "wise". The Advisor and the Seer are both wise just as much, if not moreso, than Sage (Mystic has 2 specs related to being "wise", more than Consular).

In the canon there are very few examples of Yoda being a negotiator. Yes, he had a good relationship with the Wookies and he did a minor amount of negotiating with King Katuunko. Most of that episode was Yoda wiping out a battle droid battalion and shutting down Ventress. It did show him as a teacher and a leader and a warrior. Those were the actual highlights of the episode - not Yoda as a master negotiator. So, in the end, Yoda has done some negotiating but nothing that says he's a renowned master of negotiation. He does some of it. Like all jedi do.

Your fourth and fifth paragraphs are laughable. You literally describe a Mystic in both paragraphs. Then pull out "This is another hallmark of the Consular".

And he kept is eye on Kanan and Ezra? Oh, you mean like a Mystic/Seer?

Also, why do you continually dodge the request to support your argument with canon material?

I'm also not sure what defeating battle droids without the use of a lightsaber and with the force alone has to do with the Consular Career.

In the old SW RPGs a "consular" was a Jedi who was more focused on non-combat skills and using the force while the "guardian" was more focused on using a lightsaber.

That distinction isn't really relevant in FFGs Star Wars (nor was it in the last edition of SW - Saga Edition) as each of the more Jedi-centric careers offers both.

They did keep the classic 3 of Consular, Guardian and Sentinel, but they also added Warrior and Mystic with strong Jedi themes (and non-Jedi options too). Some of these careers kept some of the flavor of the original uses. A Consular is good at diplomacy and scholarly stuff. But a Niman Disciple can be a powerful lightsaber wielder. And the other Careers got things that would have been lumped into "consular" when the RPG had a binary Consular/Guardian dynamic. That dynamic doesn't exist anymore. Some vestiges of it remain in the fluff and the design but it's not meant to be a silo where things are neatly divided.

2 minutes ago, Kael said:

Also, why do you continually dodge the request to support your argument with canon material?

The examples I just game are all from canon material.

7 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Nice magic trick you've got there Tramp. Yoda does something? It's the hallmark of a consular! That's not an argument. That's not demonstrating that Yoda as seen in canon is being a "consular".

Does that ability actually show up in Mystic instead of Consular or elsewhere or fit the fluff of Mystic better than Consular? Well it's still the hallmark of the consular.

Yeah, the canon references Yoda as a great teacher. And main characters recognize this, as their own teacher/mentor and he trains Luke. I said Teacher was the only Consular spec that actually hit on something we see Yoda doing.

Wisdom is not the hallmark of a Consular. Consular's can certainly be wise but wisdom isn't the purview of any particular Career. There's a bunch of specs out there that can be "wise". The Advisor and the Seer are both wise just as much, if not moreso, than Sage (Mystic has 2 specs related to being "wise", more than Consular).

In the canon there are very few examples of Yoda being a negotiator. Yes, he had a good relationship with the Wookies and he did a minor amount of negotiating with King Katuunko. Most of that episode was Yoda wiping out a battle droid battalion and shutting down Ventress. It did show him as a teacher and a leader and a warrior. Those were the actual highlights of the episode - not Yoda as a master negotiator. So, in the end, Yoda has done some negotiating but nothing that says he's a renowned master of negotiation. He does some of it. Like all jedi do.

Your fourth and fifth paragraphs are laughable. You literally describe a Mystic in both paragraphs. Then pull out "This is another hallmark of the Consular".

And he kept is eye on Kanan and Ezra? Oh, you mean like a Mystic/Seer?

Sages are known for their wisdom and knowledge. Teachers are known for their wisdom and knowledge. Arbitrators (and judges)--the Arbiter spec-- are expected to be wise and knowledgeable, as well as fair. Ascetics are also known for their wisdom and faith. That's four specs which are well known for wisdom and knowledge.

10 minutes ago, Kael said:

I would cast a character known for wisdom, primarily, as a Mystic not a Consular. The same goes for someone knowing for their powers in the Force. That sounds more like a Mystic than a Consular. For his skills with the lightsabre though ..... that could be any career, though Seeker would be more appropriate considering how Yoda fights in the movies.

Nothing you've listed are hallmarks of the Consular. At least not the Consular as constructed by this game.

I wouldn't. A Mystic, at least by RAW, is more known for their Charisma (aka Presence) not Wisdom. Consulars are more known for their Wisdom. Hence why Sage, Ascetic, and Teacher are a part of the Consular career, not Mystic career.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I'm also not sure what defeating battle droids without the use of a lightsaber and with the force alone has to do with the Consular Career.

It shows his strength and knowledge in the Force rather than focusing on lightsaber combat. This is a classic hallmark of Consulars.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

In the old SW RPGs a "consular" was a Jedi who was more focused on non-combat skills and using the force while the "guardian" was more focused on using a lightsaber.

That distinction isn't really relevant in FFGs Star Wars (nor was it in the last edition of SW - Saga Edition) as each of the more Jedi-centric careers offers both.

They did keep the classic 3 of Consular, Guardian and Sentinel, but they also added Warrior and Mystic with strong Jedi themes (and non-Jedi options too). Some of these careers kept some of the flavor of the original uses. A Consular is good at diplomacy and scholarly stuff. But a Niman Disciple can be a powerful lightsaber wielder. And the other Careers got things that would have been lumped into "consular" when the RPG had a binary Consular/Guardian dynamic. That dynamic doesn't exist anymore. Some vestiges of it remain in the fluff and the design but it's not meant to be a silo where things are neatly divided.

FFG gave each "Jedi" career a lightsaber style spec, with each spec tying into an attribute which that career is known for (although how Guardians are known for their Intellect is a good question), with Consulars having Willpower (wisdom) as their key attribute. Niman is established as the "Diplomat's style", hence why it is part of the Consular career. It is also apparently the style used when using the double-bladed lightsaber. Mystic, Warrior, and Seeker seem to be offshoots of Consular, Guardian, and Sentinel respectively, though they can also be seen as branches of the old Force Adept class, particularly Mystic and Seeker.

Tramp - you are selectively editing out what you don't want to see and selectively inserting things you want to see.

The consular career does not go on and on about how they are wise. It says they are good at negotiation and bringing harmony. It talks around the idea that they are wise. Mystic isn't brought out explicitly as being "wise" but Advisor and Seer are described as having insight.

3 of the 6 Consular Skills rely on Presence. 2 of 4 of the Sage's do (Cool being an overlap of the two). So it's in fact the Consular that is highly dependent on charisma (Presence) to be effective. It's the hallmark characteristic for "negotiating".

Yes, the Mystic says they have a natural or cultivated charisma. Mystic has 1 of 6 Skills that use Presence. The Seer has 0 Skills that use Presence. The Advisor has 2. Consular is much more dependent on Presence than Mystic. As you'd expect since it's explicitly about negotiating.

Then you selectively ignore everything else the Mystic career says. Mystics are the ones that have a deep and strong connection to the Force. That is actually a hallmark of Yoda. Not negotiating. Seers are meditative, look into the future and have visions. That is actually a hallmark of Yoda. One he does all the time in canon. Running off to have a mystical experience with the Priestesses and learning the secrets of the Force about immortality from Qui-gon describe a Mystic. Not a Consular trying to bring conficting factions together.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It shows his strength and knowledge in the Force rather than focusing on lightsaber combat. This is a classic hallmark of Consulars.

Uh, no it's not. Where does it say that? The Mystic career specifically states they have a strong connection to the force and dwell deeply in the Force and master a broad range of force powers. The Consulars try to bring harmony to conflict.

You can just keep claiming that something "is the hallmark of the Consulars" but you've got to actually back it up. Especially when you keep saying that something explicitly described in the Mystic Career is really a "hallmark of the Consular".

And Willpower is not synonymous with wisdom. Reread the characteristic entry. Doesn't say anything about wisdom. The closest it gets is saying it's related to "faith" (strong convictions). But pretty much Willpower is about...willpower.

Yeah, Tramp, there is no "wisdom" stat - you can have a high Willpower, but not be wise. Willpower is more like Integrity and Strength of Will, not wisdom.

Also, you can be a diplomat and negotiator and not be wise, simply intelligent - and intelligence =/= wisdom.