7 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

You made it matter for this argument by assigning value to the idea of a confession made by Palpatine. So again, when exactly was this confession made?

You had brought up the Republic's laws way before that.

13 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

That's certainly a strong possibility.

It's also possible that the Jedi have an independent or semi independent legal authority.

Certainly Palpatine didn't fear the Jedi. That could be because he had the law on his side. Corrupt institutions on his side. Or was just going to kill them regardless and declare himself Emperor. Or all of the above.

Ahsoka's trial suggest that they have a little bit of independence in dealing with internal matters and that's it and even that is granted by the senate and Palpatine, as they decided to hand Ahsoka over instead and not challenge the authority of the republic. All authority the jedis have seems to have is granted by the senate. Besides they are at the point basically military commanders, staging a military coup.

Jedi were peacekeepers before soldiers.

I agree their legal authority comes from the senate and the senate has granted them legal authority (what exactly is unclear).

Arresting someone is different than conducting a trial. I never suggested the Jedi would conduct a trial of Palpatine only that they had some legal authority to arrest him (whether that arrest would be upheld is a separate issue)

51 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Arresting someone is different than conducting a trial. I never suggested the Jedi would conduct a trial of Palpatine only that they had some legal authority to arrest him (whether that arrest would be upheld is a separate issue)

Yeah, Mace says, "the Senate will decide your fate." So he's just there in a capacity to arrest the guy.

8 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

You had brought up the Republic's laws way before that.

When, exactly?

14 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

When, exactly?

Yesterday.

20 hours ago, StarkJunior said:

He already said Saga edition was a piece of ****, so.

20 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

But it's still official!

20 hours ago, StarkJunior said:

Oh, sure - but he's already displayed he'll cast aside canon or anything official if it conflicts with his views.

I despise Saga Edition for game mechanics reasons, not canonical ones. Those reasons are also why I stopped playing D&D many many years ago, and refuse to ever play it again.

19 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Also, Tramp your are incorrect about other Star Wars RPG games. Multi-classing is the same in concept as taking out of Career specs. Your first class picked has a number of permanent features - including class skills.

And these classes all had fluff narrative descriptions about the characters in them.

It's standard RPG stuff.

No, it wasn't. Not in OCRB and RCRB. The key difference is you didn't have separate specialization from core classes. There were Prestige Classes, which could be considered similar to Specializations, but the Classes themselves were the equivalent to the current Careers. However, unlike Careers in this system, you could add entire new full Classes to your character, not just Prestige Classes, thus actually change "careers" as your character advanced, gaining completely different options.

19 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

@Tramp Graphics, I'll take your non-response to my challenge as indication that you cannot build the definitive Yoda and are simply running your mouth.

Well, given that Disciples of Harmony isn't even out yet, and over half of the Specializations needed to build Yoda properly are in that book, what do you think.

19 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Tramp, you also cherry picked the Choosing A Career section. It spends several paragraphs saying a character can grow and evolve away from their origins. So much so that "beginning's may bear little resemblance to what they eventually become". And that " The players choices on how to use these abilities determine the characters ultimate fate".

It also says Career can be chosen based on a a character's "predilections or their environment during their youth".

Backing up everything I've said.

Yes, but the career still has an overarching effect on his general view on life. regardless of what other specs he takes in the future. My signature character is a prime example of that. He started out as a Guardian, with Soresu Defender as the starting spec, then branched out into Seeker and Sentinel Specs. Still, at heart, he remains a Guardian, even though all but one of his Specs are out of Career Specs, and three out of the five total specs are from Sentinel, he remains, a Guardian, and always will be a Guardian. That is because not only is that how he started, but it is also his core mindset and view on life. It is what he is, and that never changes.

19 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

To be fair to Tramp, the beginning of that section describes things as he says: Career is a "reflection of the PC's central personality" with the " overall approach toward challenges and confrontations remains consistent".

The two sections are a bit contradictory - the point is clearly that Careers and specs are tools for the players to use in whatever way works best for them to create the characters and stories they want.

18 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Well, that intent might be clear, but that clarity is likely found through playing the game and seeing how it actually works out through the generation and subsequent advancement of many characters (many of which, as seen IRL, will not be optimized).

There really is no contradiction. This is because a person's core personality and character is developed early in life. This is why both of those sections are written the way they are. Both are true simultaneously. The career is first chosen based upon his early experiences and how they shaped his personality and outlook on life. These forever shape how he views the world, and his personality, even as he branches out into new experiences and skill sets. His core outlook , and thus career, does not change. This is true of Yoda as well. Thus, even when branching out into Ataru Striker, or even , potentially Hermit or Seer, his core personality, his core outlook, how he does things, all are those of a Consular. And, even the majority of his Specializations should likely reflect this as well, with the majority of his specs being Consular specs.

That would certainly explain Anakin having the Slave career. Thankfully Sith Apprentice is a specialization under Slave, right?

Tramp you do realize you can pick whatever personality and outlook you want for a character regardless of Career right? And that literally the career section says a character can change drastically over time? And even if it didn't people can play it anyway they see fit?

I'm not going to waste any more of my time trying to convince you that people can legitimately make characters any way they want. You're doggedly convinced otherwise.

I'm still curious though if you were GMing a game of Jedi Council PCs and the Yoda player started Yoda outside of Consular if you would demand he change it?

If I were running a game involving the Jedi Council, yes, I would expect the characters to be designed based upon their depictions in canon and Legends. So, yes, Yoda would absolutely have to be a Consular. Obi-Wan would have to be a Guardian, as would Mace Windu, Eeth Koth, Agen Kolar, and Plo Koon.

Also it looks like Tramp answered my other question: he would tell a player " you can't do that, you're a Consular!"

"What? I just wanted to create a womanizing drunkard doctor who hates people but is force sensitive so I started as a Consular Healer. He doesn't care at all about knowledge, teaching, negotiation, peace or justice. I wanted quick access to medical skills and talents and force powers".

"Well, you can't do that because that's not a Consular."

Good luck finding a group Tramp.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

If I were running a game involving the Jedi Council, yes, I would expect the characters to be designed based upon their depictions in canon and Legends. So, yes, Yoda would absolutely have to be a Consular. Obi-Wan would have to be a Guardian, as would Mace Windu, Eeth Koth, Agen Kolar, and Plo Koon.

And you'd also force your particular view of legends and canon of course.

Sincerely, I wish all the best finding a group to play with.

7 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Also it looks like Tramp answered my other question: he would tell a player " you can't do that, you're a Consular!"

"What? I just wanted to create a womanizing drunkard doctor who hates people but is force sensitive so I started as a Consular Healer. He doesn't care at all about knowledge, teaching, negotiation, peace or justice. I wanted quick access to medical skills and talents and force powers".

"Well, you can't do that because that's not a Consular."

There is a difference between creating an original character and recreating a canon character. There are certain restrictions that a canon character needs to be adhered to that an original character doesn't have. Yoda is established in canon and Legends, as a Jedi Consular, thus, that requires him to have the Consular career. A player's originally created character can be almost anything.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

There is a difference between creating an original character and recreating a canon character. There are certain restrictions that a canon character needs to be adhered to that an original character doesn't have.

Tramp, I'm done going in circles with you. You just contradicted everything you have been insisting about Career choice. I know you don't see it and I cannot get you to see it.

3 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Tramp, I'm done going in circles with you. You just contradicted everything you have been insisting about Career choice. I know you don't see it and I cannot get you to see it.

I think you missed the point. and there is no contradiction there either. A player creating his own character can choose whatever career he or she wants. This still establishes that character's general outlook on life, and the player obviously can't change careers once it is chosen. My point is that when recreating a canon character, the player does not have that freedom to choose just any random Career. He would need to take the career that canon character has been established within the fiction as having. In Yoda's case, that is Consular. That is because that career is what defines that particular canon character.

The difference is that with an originally created character, the player chooses what that character's history, and outlook on life is, whereas with a canon character, those factors are already predecided.

Tramp, when I gave my actual play examples of original characters earlier in this thread, including a bounty hunter that was not part of the Bounty Hunter career, you said we were doing it wrong.

Tramp, Yoda has not - I repeat, has not - ever been established as a Consular in canon, because the concept of a Jedi Consular is not canon.

3 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Tramp, when I gave my actual play examples of original characters earlier in this thread, including a bounty hunter that was not part of the Bounty Hunter career, you said we were doing it wrong.

By RAW, such a character isn't a Bounty Hunter, not as a Career. he may play at it, and have some of the specs, but, at his heart, that character is still an Explorer first and foremost.

2 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Tramp, Yoda has not - I repeat, has not - ever been established as a Consular in canon, because the concept of a Jedi Consular is not canon.

The concept of the Consular is an official part of the official Lore. And Yoda is established in official lore, covering both Canon and Legends, as a Consular.

9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I think you missed the point. and there is no contradiction there either. A player creating his own character can choose whatever career he or she wants. This still establishes that character's general outlook on life, and the player obviously can't change careers once it is chosen. My point is that when recreating a canon character, the player does not have that freedom to choose just any random Career. He would need to take the career that canon character has been established within the fiction as having. In Yoda's case, that is Consular. That is because that career is what defines that particular canon character.

The difference is that with an originally created character, the player chooses what that character's history, and outlook on life is, whereas with a canon character, those factors are already predecided.

So, you would not let the doctor character I described above start in Consular?

You would review a player character and make sure their personality and background and outlook were "appropriate" for their chosen Career before starting a game?

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The concept of the Consular is an official part of the official Lore. And Yoda is established in official lore, covering both Canon and Legends, as a Consular.

Where was this? Please provide proof from canon sources. No Legends. No RPGs. A canon source - a book/comic after April 2014, CW/Rebels episode, or film.

I'll wait.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

If I were running a game involving the Jedi Council, yes, I would expect the characters to be designed based upon their depictions in canon and Legends. So, yes, Yoda would absolutely have to be a Consular. Obi-Wan would have to be a Guardian, as would Mace Windu, Eeth Koth, Agen Kolar, and Plo Koon

Telling players how to play their characters may explain why you haven't yet played the game.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The concept of the Consular is an official part of the official Lore. And Yoda is established in official lore, covering both Canon and Legends, as a Consular.

You keep looking lumping canon in with lore and legend. You have never cited canon.

11 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

So, you would not let the doctor character I described above start in Consular?

You would review a player character and make sure their personality and background and outlook were "appropriate" for their chosen Career before starting a game?

A Force sensitive Doctor, who starts out as a doctor, of course would need to start out Consular Healer. I never said otherwise. His outlook, regardless of his "drinking habits" is still that of a healer, which fits into the Consular ethos.