55 minutes ago, mouthymerc said:

I can not convey how much fun it is to watch people debate with a theorist. How does anyone take anything he says seriously when his only experience with the game is from reading the books.

I think most of us are in this thread at this point for the mere amusement the argument brings us.

16 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

So you concede that you have no real point?

He never has a point.

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

But that counter-argument rests on the idea that any of that would matter legally. Which you can't support.

You've yet to support anything from your position. You can't ask others to do so when you do not extend them the same. That's just arguing in bad faith, which would also be trolling.

The thread gift that keeps on giving ?

Are you ready to apologize for your behavior?

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

Are you ready to apologize for your behavior?

Now where's the fun in that? I mean, I know you are personally offended by the things I say. It does seem odd that you let the others pass insults but you know I guess you like them more than me.

It is my cross to bear I assume. I'll just have to settle for being the one that can make valid and well constructed points that are supported by in world examples and adhere to internal and external logic.

Le sigh ...... le sigh

Whatever will I do? Who will I talk to? Are people still going to like my post with you not talking to me?!?!?!?

1 hour ago, Stan Fresh said:

But that counter-argument rests on the idea that any of that would matter legally. Which you can't support.

You made it matter for this argument by assigning value to the idea of a confession made by Palpatine. So again, when exactly was this confession made?

Just now, awayputurwpn said:

You made it matter for this argument by assigning value to the idea of a confession made by Palpatine. So again, when exactly was this confession made?

Amusingly just going back and rewatching the scene blows his entire case out of the water. As we will see Palpatine only admits to knowledge of the darkside, not to being a Sith or being a traitor. Anakin accueses him of being Sith but he does not directly answer the question. So all things considered it's less of a confession and more Anakin's own assumptions. In order for any of Stan's point to have merit, at this juncture, he would need to show that it was illegal and treasonous to possess knowledge of the darkside. Outside of that, all we can honestly say is that the chancellor admits to knowing things that maybe the Jedi doesn't think he should know. However there is no evidence that, inofitself, is a crime worthy of execution under the grounds of treason.

I have my doubts that he'd conceede his position but the facts do stare him straight in the face on this one. Palpatine offers up no confession to Anakin other than having knowledge of the darkisde (though he is careful not to say whether he actually uses the darkside, very clumsy of Anakin really).

Ok now I am actually eating popcorn while reading this. This is fun.

18 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

Ok now I am actually eating popcorn while reading this. This is fun.

I need to get in on this popcorn-eating thing. I only ever have coffee or a beer when I'm posting.

With the little evidence Anakin had maybe the Jedi had some amount of probable cause to arrest Palpatine (and I'd say it's so flimsy a judge would release him quickly) but an arrest could perhaps be made (the courts sort out if an arrest was proper or not). Maybe Palpatine feared an investigation. Or he didn't have to bother with all the legal process and so he didn't.

Palpatine resisted arrest by killing several Jedi. So that's a crime right there. And perhaps to also prove Palpatine was a Sith.

But Mace had subdued him? If someone can shoot lightning out of their fingers are they really subdued? Legally this is probably debatable. But Mace seem to view it as killing someone mostly at his mercy.

2 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

I need to get in on this popcorn-eating thing. I only ever have coffee or a beer when I'm posting.

Normally I just sustain myself on pure, unfiltered rage.

This white cheddar popcorn is amazing though.

Also these Nutter Butter bites.

The arrest powers of the Jedi come from the Republic. They act as agents of the Chancellor. It's fair to say that the Chancellor didn't approve of being arrested by the Jedi, so what legal authority do the Jedi have to arrest Palpatine?

7 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

But Mace had subdued him? If someone can shoot lightning out of their fingers are they really subdued? Legally this is probably debatable. But Mace seem to view it as killing someone mostly at his mercy.

How far do you take that though?

Anakin: He's unarmed don't attack!

Worst Jedi Ever I mean... Mace Windu: Nah, he's got both his arms still, he could put me in a choke hold. I'm just gonna cut him a lil' bit...

Anakin: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! *ignites saber*

6 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

The arrest powers of the Jedi come from the Republic. They act as agents of the Chancellor. It's fair to say that the Chancellor didn't approve of being arrested by the Jedi, so what legal authority do the Jedi have to arrest Palpatine?

That's certainly a strong possibility.

It's also possible that the Jedi have an independent or semi independent legal authority.

Certainly Palpatine didn't fear the Jedi. That could be because he had the law on his side. Corrupt institutions on his side. Or was just going to kill them regardless and declare himself Emperor. Or all of the above.

8 minutes ago, GroggyGolem said:

How far do you take that though?

Anakin: He's unarmed don't attack!

Worst Jedi Ever I mean... Mace Windu: Nah, he's got both his arms still, he could put me in a choke hold. I'm just gonna cut him a lil' bit...

Anakin: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! *ignites saber*

I think Mace is on shaky legal ground but I think a Space Matlock could get some traction on this point.

"A Sith can kill you with a thought. And you sensed he was dangerous, right Master Jedi?"

Regardless I don't think Anakin and Mace were having a legal discussion as much as a moral or practical one.

15 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I think Mace is on shaky legal ground but I think a Space Matlock could get some traction on this point.

"A Sith can kill you with a thought. And you sensed he was dangerous, right Master Jedi?"

Regardless I don't think Anakin and Mace were having a legal discussion as much as a moral or practical one.

They're never harmless until they're dead.

Just now, Jedi Ronin said:

Palpatine resisted arrest by killing several Jedi. So that's a crime right there. And perhaps to also prove Palpatine was a Sith.

Resisting was likely part of his plan though. If he wins he can spin it as they attacked him and thus the Jedi revolted and attempted a coup. Palpatine likely wanted them to try to arrest him just so he could set up the appearance of a Jedi coup. But resisting arrest isn't proof of being a Sith, more so if the arrest was an unlawful attempt and we are given nothing to believe that what they were doing was lawful.

I'd wager the Jedi overstepped their bounds here. I would be willing to bet that a government such as the Republic has a more formal way of removing the Chancellor than the Jedi showing up and threatening you with lightsabres.

Yeah. We just don't know.

I agree that Sidious wanted them to try to arrest him.

I do think that the Jedi must have had some authority to arrest Palpatine (not that it was necessary iron clad legally) otherwise Mace's plan is nonsensical because it utterly fails if Sidious surrenders peacefully. You'd think one of the other members of the Jedi council would have at least pointed out such a big flaw:

"Hey Mace, what if he surrenders and we have to explain to a judge and the Senate why we committed treason?"

"Oh, yeah"

But maybe Mace and the rest of the council were that desperate.

Also, I don't think resisting arrest proved Palpatine was a Sith but rather possessing and using a lightsaber skillfully enough to kill 3 Jedi Masters in moments and shooting lightning out of his hands.

56 minutes ago, Kael said:

I'd wager the Jedi overstepped their bounds here. I would be willing to bet that a government such as the Republic has a more formal way of removing the Chancellor than the Jedi showing up and threatening you with lightsabres.

Well, there was an Order 65, an order in which the Senate could initiate if the majority felt he had to be removed. In which case the clones would instead turn on him and try to capture their former Chancellor or if needed kill.

Even though it's considered Legends now I don't see that way working out considering Palpatine's firm hold on the Senate as a majority...by the way why would he even let that Order exist? To make Order 66 look less suspicious in my opinion.

Thinking about it some more, if Mace thinks Sidious is too dangerous to be left alive because he's a Sith and a Chancellor of a corrupt Republican then why did he try to arrest him in the first place? Just to provoke a confrontation?

I guess it's just Star Wars

Just now, Jedi Ronin said:

I do think that the Jedi must have had some authority to arrest Palpatine (not that it was necessary iron clad legally) otherwise Mace's plan is nonsensical because it utterly fails if Sidious surrenders peacefully. You'd think one of the other members of the Jedi council would have at least pointed out such a big flaw:

Dude when you sit down and think about it the entire thing is nonsensical. We'd like to think that if they didn't have the authority to arrest him that someone would stop Mace but you know they all joyfully waltzed off to arrest Palpatine based on zero evidence and only the word of a Jedi they didn't even trust to guide them. The entire premise for the set up is nonsensical sadly.

Just now, Weedles and Fries said:

Well, there was an Order 65, an order in which the Senate could initiate if the majority felt he had to be removed. In which case the clones would instead turn on him and try to capture their former Chancellor or if needed kill.

Even though it's considered Legends now I don't see that way working out considering Palpatine's firm hold on the Senate as a majority...by the way why would he even let that Order exist? To make Order 66 look less suspicious in my opinion.

Well, while I felt Order 65 was silly, I would point out that the Clone Army was ordered so long ago that it might have been placed in there just in case Palaptine was still just a senator and he needed to take out the chancellor and the Jedi.

13 minutes ago, Kael said:

Dude when you sit down and think about it the entire thing is nonsensical. We'd like to think that if they didn't have the authority to arrest him that someone would stop Mace but you know they all joyfully waltzed off to arrest Palpatine based on zero evidence and only the word of a Jedi they didn't even trust to guide them. The entire premise for the set up is nonsensical sadly.

A lot of Star Wars falls apart on close inspection (but I still love it).

My favorite of this genre (only recently realized by me) is in Empire with Yoda and Obi-wan telling Luke he can't run off to confront Vader because he needs to complete his training then when Luke returns to Yoda a relatively short time later in RotJ and Yoda tells Luke he already knows everything he needs to know and he needs to confront Vader to complete his training.

Some things just happen because they have to happen.

I can see Mace trusting Anakin about Palpatine because Anakin was close to Palps and Palps "assigned" Anakin to the Council - so Anakin wouldn't lightly accuse Palps. I agree that Anakin didn't have any proof (and Mace didn't ask for any).

30 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Thinking about it some more, if Mace thinks Sidious is too dangerous to be left alive because he's a Sith and a Chancellor of a corrupt Republican then why did he try to arrest him in the first place? Just to provoke a confrontation?

I guess it's just Star Wars

Like @Kael said, Mace didn't trust Anakin fully. I think he really did want to arrest him...He even tried to place him under arrest after he disarmed him, following the crazy lightsaber duel. So I don't think he was trying to provoke a confrontation...more like he was preparing for it.

13 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Some things just happen because they have to happen.

This is very true. To be honest I doubt any of us look at the movies too closely. We're only taking these scenes apart because Stan was trying to use them to support an unsound argument and we are highlight the lack of foundation his argument has by showcasing the flaws in his assumptions via the scenes in the movie that undermines his position.

Otherwise I doubt any of us truly care that much that Mace trusting Anakin on this one thing doesn't make sense at all.

6 hours ago, Kael said:

However there is no evidence that, inofitself, is a crime worthy of execution under the grounds of treason.

What hilarious is that even if there was, Stan's argument would STILL have no merit because this is Star Wars, not Judge Dredd. The Jedi are NOT the Law, and they cannot act as Judge, Jury, and Executioner. Not while being the guardians of peace and justice for a thousand generations.