It's also another GL writing turd that Anakin--normally the "rules be damned" type--is suddenly the one that wants to follow procedure while the more rule-bound Windu is all for abandoning procedure.

12 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

It's also another GL writing turd that Anakin--normally the "rules be damned" type--is suddenly the one that wants to follow procedure while the more rule-bound Windu is all for abandoning procedure.

Why? He needed him and Sheev Palpatine was a friend and father figure for him and on top was Anakin himself not too happy about his own execution of Dooku. So he had plenty of reasons to reconsider his stance on such actions and plenty of reasons to be a hypocrite on top.

21 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

When you lose one argument you jump to the next one. As I said previously, if you want to insist that Yoda is a consular conceptually that's fine (though it is a non-canonical precedence, and one that was largely ignored in Saga Edition Star Wars) but it doesn't dictate a starting Career. At all. The Consular Career is both a thematic and a mechanical choice but themes are shared across careers. And some of Yoda's major themes - his lightsaber style and his role as seer - are easily found in other Careers. The concept of a consular can be found in other Careers. In other words, the mechanics are what matter, because if the mechanics are there (regardless of their source) then you can just slap the "consular" label on them. Then you argued that mechanically only Consular would do (+ Ataru). When that was shown to be false you jumped to XP efficiency is what matters in order to really be a "consular". And now you're going back to the beginning again.

You've also neatly ignored the fact that even if you want to insist that Yoda is the consummate consular he could have started in any Career and then moved into being more of a consular. Narratively speaking there is no reason he didn't start learning Ataru. The only reason you could have for saying starting with Seeker Ataru is not correct is that it's not (theoretically) mechanically efficient. Narratively speaking there is no reason you couldn't decide that Yoda started out not sharing any of the consular ideals but that experience and introspection over time moved him there (making starting out in Ataru or elsewhere an excellent choice). Just because, narratively and mechanically, Yoda is the iconic and consummate "consular" doesn't mean he started out that way. That's where he ended up.

The "Concept" of the Consular is built upon the career of Consular. IF you want to build a Consular type character, you build a Consular, you don't choose a different career to build a Consular. An given that the rules prohibit the changing of careers, Yoda has to start out as a Consular, not just take some Consular Specializations. Remember, you cannot change careers only Specializations.

21 hours ago, StarkJunior said:

Look at Obi-Wan - he initially likely had Ataru Striker because that's what Qui-Gon used and trained him in, but then developed into Soresu Defender after the duel with Darth Maul on Naboo.

And Obi-Wan is the master Soresu Defender.

According to F&D core book, Obi Wan is a Guardian, started out as a Soresu Defender, then went Peacekeeper, then Protector. You could conceivably add in Investigator from the Sentinel career, but officially, Obi- Wan is a Guardian. This is stated on page 63-64 of the F&D core book:

Quote

Obi-Wan Kenobi is ultimately a Guardian. When he began his career, he focused on becoming a talented duelist, believing that this was the best way for him to serve the Jedi Order. Eventually, he became an accomplished general, as well as a capable negotiator. Finally, as he moved into hiding from the Galactic Empire, he focused on surviving in the wastelands of Tatooine.

Each of these role could be explained as a result of a decision by Obi-Wan to pursue a different specialization within the Guardian career. During his time as a Padawan, the young Jedi focused on refining his lightsaber expertise as a Soresu Defender. Then, when the Clone Wars erupted, he had no choice but to transfer to the Peacekeeper path as he led units into battle and negotiated treaties. Finally, as he entered hiding and attempted to live outside of civilization, he embraced the Protector path.

The same holds true of Yoda. Ultimately, Yoda is a Consular, and to be a Consular in this game, you must start out with the Consular career, since there is no switching careers in this game.

21 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

It's irrelevant because movie characters have unlimited XP budgets. The writers have no reason to build "for the fewest XP possible" so you need to drop that pointless tangent.

If instead the question was how does someone build the most XP-efficient character with similarities to Yoda, you might have a point, but that's not what anybody else is saying.

19 hours ago, Kael said:

When stating NPC's (which Yoda would be) XP efficiency is an irrelevant argument. Also, not everyone builds their characters the most XP efficient way. Some people build their characters based on concept, others based on what happens in game.

Nothing says we have to build Yoda with the fewest XP possible and I have my doubts you can justify the logic required to make the rest of us assume that's given.

It is relevant if you're building him as a PC, which, as you know has already been done at least once. PCs don't have unlimited budgets.

2 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

What confession did he have?

Palpatine's, to Anakin.

2 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

And if that attempt at killing was not assassination, what was it?

Summary execution of a traitor during wartime.

The rules prohibit changing careers so Yoda must start as Consular?

Nope. That's not how the rules system works. You can actually start in any career you want and cross spec into other "careers". You are free to make narrative choices and you're also not required to min/max the character nor are you required to plan out the characters growth path. You can in fact say you want to make an ace pilot character - eventually - but start them as a Seeker or a Soldier or whatever. 2000XP later you'll still have the best fighter pilot in the galaxy and can still call yourself an ace pilot.

You didn't provide one reason why Yoda had to start in Consular. You just restate that he must. You have no idea how Yoda started out. You addressed none of the issues I brought up. It's absolutely possible he didn't start his Jedi life as a "consular" but as an Ataru Striker and through life experience and introspection moved towards "consular". Thought he could also have made a trip to Mystic first. He's a 900 year old character worth thousands of XP. It's preposterous to insist he had to start where he ended up (according to you - the canon does not contain the idea of "consular" and he exhibits just as many non-Consular traits in canon). Nothing in canon says he had no character growth or development. Nothing in canon says where he started and what path of learning he took. And you can in fact perfectly recreate the canon Yoda without even touching Consular.

Does anybody else think that it's rather ironic that Tramp insists that PCs don't have unlimited XP budgets since the very first character that he wants to play is, IIRC, > 1,800 XP.

3 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

The rules prohibit changing careers so Yoda must start as Consular?

Nope. That's not how the rules system works. You can actually start in any career you want and cross spec into other "careers". You are free to make narrative choices and you're also not required to min/max the character nor are you required to plan out the characters growth path. You can in fact say you want to make an ace pilot character - eventually - but start them as a Seeker or a Soldier or whatever. 2000XP later you'll still have the best fighter pilot in the galaxy and can still call yourself an ace pilot.

You didn't provide one reason why Yoda had to start in Consular. You just restate that he must. You have no idea how Yoda started out. You addressed none of the issues I brought up. It's absolutely possible he didn't start his Jedi life as a "consular" but as an Ataru Striker and through life experience and introspection moved towards "consular". Thought he could also have made a trip to Mystic first. He's a 900 year old character worth thousands of XP. It's preposterous to insist he had to start where he ended up (according to you - the canon does not contain the idea of "consular" and he exhibits just as many non-Consular traits in canon). Nothing in canon says he had no character growth or development. Nothing in canon says where he started and what path of learning he took. And you can in fact perfectly recreate the canon Yoda without even touching Consular.

For Yoda to be a Jedi Consular, as both canon and Legends establish him to be, he must start with the Consular career, otherwise he is not a Jedi Consular. By RAW, You cannot switch careers, and canon (both old and new) does establish Yoda as a Jedi Consular. That alone requires him to be built using the Consular career. So yes, because canon establishes Yoda as A Jedi Consular, he must be built using the Consular career. Add to that that his skill set and talents he exhibits in the movies as a whole also establish him as a Consular through and through, with only Ataru Striker being the only required out of career specialization also establish him as a Consular.

No matter what specializations you take, a character will always be whatever career they start with in this system. If I start with Consular, I will forever be a Consular, even if most of my specializations come from a different spec. If I start out as a Guardian, I will always be a Guardian, even if most of my later specs are from Sentinel, or Seeker, or Mystic. What career I start out as is what I am forever. That is by RAW. This is true of Yoda as well, whatever career he starts as is what career he will always have and what career he will always be identified as. This is by RAW. Canonically, Yoda is a Consular, as such, by RAW, he has to have started out with the Consular career. Otherwise he is not and never can be a Consular.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

Does anybody else think that it's rather ironic that Tramp insists that PCs don't have unlimited XP budgets since the very first character that he wants to play is, IIRC, > 1,800 XP.

That character is a one-for-one conversion from previous game systems, not a character built from scratch. And was built using the minimum amount of XP I could to get him to match up to his previous stats.

Tramp - Assuming a limited PC budget hurts your argument because you can't really do Yoda (as a 900 year old Jedi Grandmaster) justice on a limited budget so you're going to have to prioritize which aspects to emphasize which means you're going to have to jettison certain things. If you've got 300 XP to create Yoda over the course of a campaign and you're starting at a beginning character (not Knight Level rules) you're going to have to make some significant sacrifices to the character concept. If you want Yoda to be good at Ataru then you're going to focus on Seeker Ataru and start there. If you want to focus on his seer qualities then Mystic Seer is where you start. If you want to just focus on raw force ability then Sage or Seer (maybe both) are your best bet on a budget, so you could start Mystic or Consular. Seer is arguably a better good-at-the-force than Sage because it has Natural Mystic (reroll a Force power check) and it has The Force Is My Ally for cheaper. And you've still got to budget points for actual force powers so you may not be able to cross spec into Sage/Seer from Seer/Sage to pick up the massive Force Rating.

And if you'r on a budget because you are playing Yoda as a youngling then the door is wide open as to what you could start him as because no matter what choice you make taking the character from where you leave off to Yoda as we know him has enough time and XP to mold him into anything else (like you insist he is a consular - even though this isn't supported by canon because consular is not a canon concept).

At most, all you can really say, if you're describing canon Yoda is that he's wise, contemplative, very strong in the force, a respected leader and renowned teacher, and a master of the lightsaber. These character aspects can be found in Consular but they can also be found with equal if not more power in other careers's specs.

Where does canon establish Yoda as a consular? You've pulled from some RPG sources and legends (though ignored the fact that Saga Edition Star Wars approved by Lucasfilm largely ignored the consular aspect of Yoda when they made him only 1/11th consular). Where in any of the films or animated series has this been established?

Please point out the Yoda scene in any of the movies or animated series that could not be replicated with Yoda not starting out in Consular.

And, yes Tramp, you can in fact call yourself a "consular" if you don't have Consular as your career. It's preposterous for you to claim that if you start out as Mystic then cross spec into every Consular spec and buy all the talents in all the trees that you could not call yourself a "consular".

Seriously, why can't you call yourself a consular? Unlike bounty hunters, I don't see any specific licence handed out to Consulars.

And if you're going to be so pedantic, technically a Consular in F&D cannot call themselves a Jedi. It specifically says their not the actual Jedi Consulars. So Yoda could not possibly be a Consular because Yoda is a Jedi.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No matter what specializations you take, a character will always be whatever career they start with in this system. If I start with Consular, I will forever be a Consular, even if most of my specializations come from a different spec. If I start out as a Guardian, I will always be a Guardian, even if most of my later specs are from Sentinel, or Seeker, or Mystic. What career I start out as is what I am forever. That is by RAW. This is true of Yoda as well, whatever career he starts as is what career he will always have and what career he will always be identified as. This is by RAW. Canonically, Yoda is a Consular, as such, by RAW, he has to have started out with the Consular career. Otherwise he is not and never can be a Consular.

Oh, really? So if I start as a Consular Niman Disciple then later fall to the dark side and cross spec into Aggressor and Executioner and join Black Sun and then become a Sith apprentice my character is still a "consular"?

What if I want to create a Nightsister of Dathomir and pick Consular Sage? Is that character a "consular" just like Yoda?

Even having Consular as a career doesn't make your character a "consular".

In short Tramp, all a career is is starting mechanical options and available signature abilities. It does not dictate or guarantee character concept. You can attach whatever character concept you want to a career and in fact the career splat books do this a lot. A wide array of character options are available under a single career.

2 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Tramp - Assuming a limited PC budget hurts your argument because you can't really do Yoda (as a 900 year old Jedi Grandmaster) justice on a limited budget so you're going to have to prioritize which aspects to emphasize which means you're going to have to jettison certain things. If you've got 300 XP to create Yoda over the course of a campaign and you're starting at a beginning character (not Knight Level rules) you're going to have to make some significant sacrifices to the character concept. If you want Yoda to be good at Ataru then you're going to focus on Seeker Ataru and start there. If you want to focus on his seer qualities then Mystic Seer is where you start. If you want to just focus on raw force ability then Sage or Seer (maybe both) are your best bet on a budget, so you could start Mystic or Consular. Seer is arguably a better good-at-the-force than Sage because it has Natural Mystic (reroll a Force power check) and it has The Force Is My Ally for cheaper. And you've still got to budget points for actual force powers so you may not be able to cross spec into Sage/Seer from Seer/Sage to pick up the massive Force Rating.

And if you'r on a budget because you are playing Yoda as a youngling then the door is wide open as to what you could start him as because no matter what choice you make taking the character from where you leave off to Yoda as we know him has enough time and XP to mold him into anything else (like you insist he is a consular - even though this isn't supported by canon because consular is not a canon concept).

At most, all you can really say, if you're describing canon Yoda is that he's wise, contemplative, very strong in the force, a respected leader and renowned teacher, and a master of the lightsaber. These character aspects can be found in Consular but they can also be found with equal if not more power in other careers's specs.

Not exactly true. IF you're starting out Yoda in particular, as a starting character (as if we were playing him when he first began training as a young Jedi), then he would start with a Consular specialization and eventually branch into Ataru Striker as a second or third spec after he had gained some experience. In particular, I would start him out with Arbiter as his starting specialization, then, as he went up in experience, I would give him Ataru Striker then continue with Teacher, then Sage, then Ascetic, in that order, all the while also building up his skills and Force powers over time. After that, if I wanted to add more talent trees, and had the earned XP available, I might branch out into Seer and Hermit as final specs. Obviously, there is no way to build Jedi Grand Master Yoda with 300 XP. The Developers built him at 2100 XP to account for his 900 years of experience. And I would consider that the absolute minimum to build a Jedi Grand Master regardless of Career.

2 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Where does canon establish Yoda as a consular? You've pulled from some RPG sources and legends (though ignored the fact that Saga Edition Star Wars approved by Lucasfilm largely ignored the consular aspect of Yoda when they made him only 1/11th consular). Where in any of the films or animated series has this been established?

Please point out the Yoda scene in any of the movies or animated series that could not be replicated with Yoda not starting out in Consular.

And, yes Tramp, you can in fact call yourself a "consular" if you don't have Consular as your career. It's preposterous for you to claim that if you start out as Mystic then cross spec into every Consular spec and buy all the talents in all the trees that you could not call yourself a "consular".

Seriously, why can't you call yourself a consular? Unlike bounty hunters, I don't see any specific licence handed out to Consulars.

And if you're going to be so pedantic, technically a Consular in F&D cannot call themselves a Jedi. It specifically says their not the actual Jedi Consulars. So Yoda could not possibly be a Consular because Yoda is a Jedi.

Yes, they can. The books themselves do. Each of the career books specifically refer to the different careers as filling the roles and having their origins with the Jedi. They are Jedi careers as well as careers which cover non-Jedi and aspiring Jedi.

To quote Endless Vigil page 5:

Quote

During the ancient days of the Jedi Order, many Jeid lived cloistered lives in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant or in one of the countless monastaries spread throughout the galaxy. Separated from the puls of the galaxy, they primarily studied and meditated on the ways fo the Force, rarely leaving the confines of their austere lodgings. Some-such as the Stalwart Guardians, the independent Seekers, and wise Consulars-left their temples on missions of peace, exploration, or acedemic study for months or years at a time, but were happy to return to the peaceful solitude of their refuges...

These are the F&D careers, and all established as part of the Jedi Order. So, yes, these careers can and are used for full-fledged Jedi characters, not just Force users who might want to emulate Jedi.

No Tramp it is exactly true that you can start Yoda in Ataru. It's mechanically allowed and narratively appropriate.

You have no idea how Yoda started his life as a Jedi and you have no idea if he came to become a consular later in life (if he even is a consular since that's not canon). It's very telling that you ignore the heart of my argument and have done so multiple times. There is no demand he be min/maxed or planned out from the beginning or that he has always been a consular (if he even is one).

7 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Oh, really? So if I start as a Consular Niman Disciple then later fall to the dark side and cross spec into Aggressor and Executioner and join Black Sun and then become a Sith apprentice my character is still a "consular"?

What if I want to create a Nightsister of Dathomir and pick Consular Sage? Is that character a "consular" just like Yoda?

Even having Consular as a career doesn't make your character a "consular".

By RAW, , yes, that character would still be a Consular. Palpatine, the Sith Lord is a Consular, a Dark Side Consular. A Nightsister would be best built using either Seeker or Mystic, not Consular.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

In short Tramp, all a career is is starting mechanical options and available signature abilities. It does not dictate or guarantee character concept. You can attach whatever character concept you want to a career and in fact the career splat books do this a lot. A wide array of character options are available under a single career.

A career is more than just a starting out point. It's a mindset.

12 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Where does canon establish Yoda as a consular? You've pulled from some RPG sources and legends (though ignored the fact that Saga Edition Star Wars approved by Lucasfilm largely ignored the consular aspect of Yoda when they made him only 1/11th consular). Where in any of the films or animated series has this been established?

Please point out the Yoda scene in any of the movies or animated series that could not be replicated with Yoda not starting out in Consular.

And, yes Tramp, you can in fact call yourself a "consular" if you don't have Consular as your career. It's preposterous for you to claim that if you start out as Mystic then cross spec into every Consular spec and buy all the talents in all the trees that you could not call yourself a "consular".

Seriously, why can't you call yourself a consular? Unlike bounty hunters, I don't see any specific licence handed out to Consulars.

And if you're going to be so pedantic, technically a Consular in F&D cannot call themselves a Jedi. It specifically says their not the actual Jedi Consulars. So Yoda could not possibly be a Consular because Yoda is a Jedi.

By Raw, that character would still be a Mystic, not a Consular. My signature character, Korath, after conversion, ended up with mostly Sentinel Specs, and even a Seeker spec, but his career is Guardian, and starting spec was Soresu Defender. And that's his only Guardian Spec, but he is still, at his heart a Guardian, including the Guardian Signature ability Fated Duel. And he identifies as a Guardian. The particular combination of specializations was the result of how he had advanced back during his D6 and D20 campaigns, particularly the skills and talents had had accumulated over five+ years of actual play. Thus, even with three Sentinel specs, one Seeker Spec and only one Guardian spec, is still a Guardian, not a Sentinel, not a Seeker, a Guardian. Because that is what he started as, and what he is at heart.

The same with Yoda. Yoda, at heart is a Consular, and, by RAW, is how he has to start out in order to be a Consular. That is his calling. and, by RAW, to be a Consular, you have to start out as one, regardless of what specs you take later.

And please don't get me started on the PoS that was Saga edition.

Quoting the Consular career:

"Followers of this career are not Jedi Consulars of the now-fallen republic"

Sounds like Yoda can't be a Consular.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

No Tramp it is exactly true that you can start Yoda in Ataru. It's mechanically allowed and narratively appropriate.

You have no idea how Yoda started his life as a Jedi and you have no idea if he came to become a consular later in life (if he even is a consular since that's not canon). It's very telling that you ignore the heart of my argument and have done so multiple times. There is no demand he be min/maxed or planned out from the beginning or that he has always been a consular (if he even is one).

The rules as written state that you cannot change careers. therefore, to be a Consular, you must start out as one. That is by RAW.

Tramp, I have seen a bounty hunter played that was a Hired Gun instead of a Bounty Hunter. I have seen a smuggler played that was an Explorer rather a Smuggler, and I have seen two soldiers played that did not have the Soldier Career. These are actual play examples. Do you have any actual play examples that support your contrary position that someone playing a consular must be a Consular?

So a career is a mindset. Which is why Yoda and Sidious are both Consular?

And you cannot create a Consular without the mindet of Yoda.

And a night sister could not possibly be a Consular.

Your copy of the rule set must be defective

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The rules as written state that you cannot change careers. therefore, to be a Consular, you must start out as one. That is by RAW.

You are still dodging.

Canon does not dictate Yoda is a consular.

Consular is a career and "consular" is a descriptive label. You can in fact be a "consular" without being a Consular.

You can also make a Consular that is not a "consular".

And you're still evading the big issue. You have no idea how Yoda started out and insisting implicitly that he has to be min/maxed or have had a straight line to his particular skill and ability set is not supported by canon or the books.

How do Yoda and Sidious have a similar fundamental mindset?

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Quoting the Consular career:

"Followers of this career are not Jedi Consulars of the now-fallen republic"

Sounds like Yoda can't be a Consular.

That's assuming Rebellion era, where Jedi are all but extinct. I have already quoted the book where it speciufically established Obi-Wan Kenobi as a Guardian. Guess what, he's a Jedi.

Just now, HappyDaze said:

Tramp, I have seen a bounty hunter played that was a Hired Gun instead of a Bounty Hunter. I have seen a smuggler played that was an Explorer rather a Smuggler, and I have seen two soldiers played that did not have the Soldier Career. These are actual play examples. Do you have any actual play examples that support your contrary position that someone playing a consular must be a Consular?

Then, by RAW, they're not respectively Bounty Hunters or Smugglers.

Just now, Jedi Ronin said:

So a career is a mindset. Which is why Yoda and Sidious are both Consular?

And you cannot create a Consular without the mindet of Yoda.

And a night sister could not possibly be a Consular.

Your copy of the rule set must be defective

To quote F&D page 63:

Quote

A career is a character's general approach to living life and overcoming challenges. Some individuals are oriented toward physical conflict, while others focus on acquisition of knowledge or social manipulation.

This is why a Career never changes. It is what the character is at heart; what drives him. It is an inherent quality that defines the character throughout his or her life. Once a Consular, always a Consular. Once a Guardian always a Guardian, once a Smuggler, always a Smuggler. Once a Bounty Hunter, always a Bounty Hunter. That is how the rules are written.

In every RPG I've seen Luke started out in a non-Jedi "class" so obviously he cannot be a Jedi because he did not start as a Jedi. Because at heart he's really a fringed pilot.

All that Jedi stuff that came later were not that consequential to his mindset or outlook. Once a moisture farmer always a moisture farmer.

Just now, Jedi Ronin said:

How do Yoda and Sidious have a similar fundamental mindset?

Simple. Both are seekers of knowledge, both are skilled diplomats (Palptatine is a politician, as well as a Sith Lord), and therefore, highly skilled in the area of negotiation. Both have a strong focus on studying and meditating on the deeper mysteries of the Force (Light and Dark sides respectively). Both are teachers.

So not much difference between Yoda and Sidious then?

And still have not shown why Yoda canon must be a Consular. Going by canon and Career as outlook then Mystic works perfectly for canon Yoda.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

In every RPG I've seen Luke started out in a non-Jedi "class" so obviously he cannot be a Jedi because he did not start as a Jedi. Because at heart he's really a fringed pilot.

All that Jedi stuff that came later were not that consequential to his mindset or outlook. Once a moisture farmer always a moisture farmer.

By the rules of those previous systems, character could multi-class. And WEG, was a Classless system anyway. In D20, you could change classes (the equivalent of Careers in this system) at any time. That's the difference. In this system, once you choose a career it is permanent.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

So not much difference between Yoda and Sidious then?

And still have not shown why Yoda canon must be a Consular. Going by canon and Career as outlook then Mystic works perfectly for canon Yoda.

No, it doesn't. I've already posted the Wookieepedia page which listed prominent Consulars, and right there, was YODA. And, going by career outlook, Yoda is most certainly a Consular, not a Mystic. Mystics tend to be more flamboyant, and charismatic. they tend to be showmen, thriving on their strength of personality. to quote page 79:

Quote

Each of the specializations of the Mystic career are linked to Mystics' natural comfort with the Force and natural or cultivated charisma. Their assurance and confidence flows from the Force and, through the Force, Mystics know how to guide others to a desired outcome.

By contrast, Consulars tend more towards scholarly pursuits, and careful contemplation and negotiation. To quote page 67:

Quote

Those who select the Consular career must choose at least one of the following specializations. While each of these employ different techniques, all, remain true to the Consular's overall goal of forging peace and understanding while standign against evil and injustice.