1 minute ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Does he do anything else? He STILL hasn't replied to my post back here:

That seems to be his MO. He can't be made to agree with you, but if he can't defend his position, he'll just stop responding to a certain line of discussion.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Never happen. Yoda is and always will be a Consular.

You've just contradicted yourself. You said it was up for debate. And now you are shown to be wrong through your own admission.

In a way, your post has made me very happy.

1 minute ago, StarkJunior said:

So, we're all wrong and you're right?

Nope. He is necessarily wrong, as I just showed up above.

Just now, Jedi Ronin said:

We also have no information about Yoda as a youth.

Actually...

Quote

Very little is known about Yoda's early life. He was from a remote planet, but which one remains a mystery.^[11]According to one legend,^[8] Yoda originally did not know that he was Force-sensitive at all.^[7][11] His path towards the Jedi began when he left his home planet^[7][11] with a Human friend,^[7] who also did not know he was Force-sensitive,^[7] on an old, barely space-worthy ship en route to the Core Worlds^[7] to seek employment^[7][11]. However, long before they could reach their destination, the ship was struck by a large asteroid, causing it to become severely disabled beyond their abilities to repair. They spent several days drifting dead in space during which time both their life support systems and rations came close to being exhausted, and there was still no response to their distress signal. It seemed like they would soon meet their deaths until their sensors picked up a star system not too far away.^[7]They had just enough power to make it there,^[7] and did so before^[7] crash landing on a strange^[7][11] swampy planet covered with a dense fog^[7].

They spent a few days there before being found by a strange being: Hysalrian Jedi Master N'Kata Del Gormo, who revealed to them both that they were very much Force-sensitive.^[7] The Jedi Master invited Yoda to become his apprentice, also known as a Padawan.^[11] Master Gormo took them to his home where he trained them in the ways of the Force and, not long after their training was complete, a Galactic Republic starship picked up their distress signal and rescued the two friends, who were now Jedi themselves.^[7] Departing the world, Yoda would go to Coruscant where he would continue his training at the Jedi Temple as a Jedi Initiate.^[7] As time passed, he proved himself to be a skilled Jedi.^[11] Eventually, Yoda would pass The Gathering and was assisted by the architect droid Huyang in the construction of his first lightsaber.^[12][7]

This is Legends, yes, but Tramp has shown he's fine pulling from Legends material before. Yoda's first career was actually likely Colonist, or some other non-Force Sensitive, before taking FS Emergent and then FaD careers from then on.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It's not irrelevant. It is very relevant. XP efficiency is one of the key factors in building any character. This is because the more you can get out of your XP the better off your character will be mechanically. Therefore, finding the right career, and the right combination of career skills, specializations, talents, and Force Powers is essential. This is also true when trying to build a canon character accurately for the fewest XP possible.

Put your money where your Standard Input is, then, man. Build us a Yoda PC with the fewest XP possible. "As of the end of Episode III" should do it, you think?

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

It's not irrelevant. It is very relevant. XP efficiency is one of the key factors in building any character. This is because the more you can get out of your XP the better off your character will be mechanically. Therefore, finding the right career, and the right combination of career skills, specializations, talents, and Force Powers is essential. This is also true when trying to build a canon character accurately for the fewest XP possible.

Uh, nope. It's only relevant in so far that you "waste" XP on things that aren't part of the character concept. You've basically just admitted that yes, Yoda can be created by not starting in Consular but it doesn't meet some standard of peak XP efficiency you have that you've yet to show is essential in creating the character.

With 2000XP your starting Career is almost irrelevant because the vast amount of XP you've spent makes that initial choice irrelevant even if you want to argue efficiency as your primary concern.

Optimal efficiency is not the only workable choice. It's undeniable.

Also, your peak-XP-optimaization-is-the-only-valid-option theory ignores synergy between various specializations. If optimal efficiency is the only option for you then synergy between specializations is probably more important than the mechanical considerations you've made. I certainly wouldn't call myself a master of this system and wouldn't feel qualified in stating for certain what the best synergies are. But I've at least made a bunch of characters and played the game. You've yet to play the game (and I do sincerely hope you do find a game and have a blast) and so perhaps a bit of humility is due on our parts when making claims about what is most "efficient".

17 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

You keep switching arguments.

You want to claim that almost-pure Consular (except for Ataru) is the most XP effecient way to create Yoda accurately? I think that's a defensible position (though I think Mystic might be better, it also has better synergy with Ataru Striker).

But this isn't what I'm arguing. I asked you point blank pages ago if it was simply just possible to do the concept of Yoda justice, mechanically, by not STARTING in Consular. You said, that no, that the ONLY fit for the character is starting in Consular. That's your contention, there is no other way to do it justice. It's simply not possible. There is only one fit, not a better fit amongst others. That's been your fundamental argument the whole time

But here you are arguing about XP effeciency again, which is totally irrelevant.

8 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

We also have no information about Yoda as a youth. Maybe he's such a sticker for the Jedi Code and the dangers of the dark side because he had to learn it by very hard experience. Maybe he had to grow into becoming the iconic "consular" (conceptually). But he took a non-linear path. That would make the character actually interesting with an actual character arch.

Other than XP efficiency, or the Will of the Force min/maxing Yoda from the very beginning there is no reason - mechanically or narratively - why you MUST start in Consular.

Aside from the mechanics alone, there is also previously established Precedence. Yoda has always been established in all previous sources, since the introduction of the term, been classified as a Consular; not a Guardian, not a Mystic, not a Sentinel, a Jedi Consular. Based upon that alone is enough to basically require that Career, and that career alone, be used for building Yoda. No other.

7 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

And we've looped around to the beginning of the circle again. Why is Yoda a consular? Because Yoda is a Consular.

You missed the point of that response. I was asked if I would ever admit that Yoda could be built using any other career besides Consular. My answer is no. I won't admit that because I don't agree with that assessment. Yoda is and always will be a Consular.

5 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Actually...

This is Legends, yes, but Tramp has shown he's fine pulling from Legends material before. Yoda's first career was actually likely Colonist, or some other non-Force Sensitive, before taking FS Emergent and then FaD careers from then on.

Nope. Yoda (and apparently all of his species) are pretty well established as being all Force users. This is supported by the fact that every member of his species we see in canon (both old and new) are all Jedi Masters. And all of them are very strong in the Force.

@StarkJunior and @Benjan Meruna, when just you two have "liked" a post, my phone makes the "Like" function go all screwy. I go to tap the button and then it jumps to the next line, like that "click me" practical joke button that would jump around the screen whenever you mouse-over it

10 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Uh, nope. It's only relevant in so far that you "waste" XP on things that aren't part of the character concept. You've basically just admitted that yes, Yoda can be created by not starting in Consular but it doesn't meet some standard of peak XP efficiency you have that you've yet to show is essential in creating the character.

With 2000XP your starting Career is almost irrelevant because the vast amount of XP you've spent makes that initial choice irrelevant even if you want to argue efficiency as your primary concern.

Optimal efficiency is not the only workable choice. It's undeniable.

Also, your peak-XP-optimaization-is-the-only-valid-option theory ignores synergy between various specializations. If optimal efficiency is the only option for you then synergy between specializations is probably more important than the mechanical considerations you've made. I certainly wouldn't call myself a master of this system and wouldn't feel qualified in stating for certain what the best synergies are. But I've at least made a bunch of characters and played the game. You've yet to play the game (and I do sincerely hope you do find a game and have a blast) and so perhaps a bit of humility is due on our parts when making claims about what is most "efficient".

First off, I didn't say that XP efficiency is the only valid option for why Consular is the essential career, and in fact the only career option. It i, however, one of the key factors needed to be considered. Another is precedence from previous sources, and the talent choices, and Signature Abilites. It isn't just one factor, All of these are important factors.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You missed the point of that response. I was asked if I would ever admit that Yoda could be built using any other career besides Consular. My answer is no. I won't admit that because I don't agree with that assessment. Yoda is and always will be a Consular.

I don't care whether or not you agree with the assessment. You can still admit he can be built using another starting Career based on someone else's opinion.

Because that's all this is - opinion. Again, none of us are saying he can't be made using a Consular, just that there are other options.

21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Nope. Yoda (and apparently all of his species) are pretty well established as being all Force users. This is supported by the fact that every member of his species we see in canon (both old and new) are all Jedi Masters. And all of them are very strong in the Force.

Oh, so you get to ignore Legends, now? All of Yoda's species that we see are Jedi, of course THOSE ones have the Force. That doesn't mean some of them DON'T have the Force and we just don't see them because the Prequels revolve around the Jedi.

3 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Oh, so you get to ignore Legends, now?

He ignores this because it doesn't support his argument.

Just now, StarkJunior said:

He ignores this because it doesn't support his argument.

He ignores anything that doesn't support his argument. He'd ignore Lucas, JJ, and Leland Chee all agreeing on the same point if it doesn't immediately slot into whatever belief he decided on.

When you lose one argument you jump to the next one. As I said previously, if you want to insist that Yoda is a consular conceptually that's fine (though it is a non-canonical precedence, and one that was largely ignored in Saga Edition Star Wars) but it doesn't dictate a starting Career. At all. The Consular Career is both a thematic and a mechanical choice but themes are shared across careers. And some of Yoda's major themes - his lightsaber style and his role as seer - are easily found in other Careers. The concept of a consular can be found in other Careers. In other words, the mechanics are what matter, because if the mechanics are there (regardless of their source) then you can just slap the "consular" label on them. Then you argued that mechanically only Consular would do (+ Ataru). When that was shown to be false you jumped to XP efficiency is what matters in order to really be a "consular". And now you're going back to the beginning again.

You've also neatly ignored the fact that even if you want to insist that Yoda is the consummate consular he could have started in any Career and then moved into being more of a consular. Narratively speaking there is no reason he didn't start learning Ataru. The only reason you could have for saying starting with Seeker Ataru is not correct is that it's not (theoretically) mechanically efficient. Narratively speaking there is no reason you couldn't decide that Yoda started out not sharing any of the consular ideals but that experience and introspection over time moved him there (making starting out in Ataru or elsewhere an excellent choice). Just because, narratively and mechanically, Yoda is the iconic and consummate "consular" doesn't mean he started out that way. That's where he ended up.

Deep inside my heart I'm hoping that Sam Stewart is watching this thread and that somehow the cover image for the Mystic book with Yoda is leaked.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Deep inside my heart I'm hoping that Sam Stewart is watching this thread and that somehow the cover image for the Mystic book with Yoda is leaked.

Now, that would be hilarious.

Look at Obi-Wan - he initially likely had Ataru Striker because that's what Qui-Gon used and trained him in, but then developed into Soresu Defender after the duel with Darth Maul on Naboo.

And Obi-Wan is the master Soresu Defender.

Just now, StarkJunior said:

Look at Obi-Wan - he initially likely had Ataru Striker because that's what Qui-Gon used and trained him in, but then developed into Soresu Defender after the duel with Darth Maul on Naboo.

And Obi-Wan is the master Soresu Defender.

It's almost like a person's personality can shift, change, and develop over the course of a decade or 90...

8 minutes ago, Richardbuxton said:

Now, that would be hilarious.

Then we could argue with Tramp about whether that is wrong. And if the Lucasfilm Story Group actually approved it.

37 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It's not irrelevant. It is very relevant. XP efficiency is one of the key factors in building any character. This is because the more you can get out of your XP the better off your character will be mechanically. Therefore, finding the right career, and the right combination of career skills, specializations, talents, and Force Powers is essential. This is also true when trying to build a canon character accurately for the fewest XP possible.

It's irrelevant because movie characters have unlimited XP budgets. The writers have no reason to build "for the fewest XP possible" so you need to drop that pointless tangent.

If instead the question was how does someone build the most XP-efficient character with similarities to Yoda, you might have a point, but that's not what anybody else is saying.

If some of you are doubting the usefulness of this thread...I'd like to point out I finally crossed 1000 posts.

21 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Those are two different things. He said something wasn't lawful. I said I assume something would be, and give a reason why it would. big difference.

You're both making assumptions—his based on something a character said in the films, and yours based on real-world geopolitics from previous centuries. That is the difference.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

If some of you are doubting the usefulness of this thread...I'd like to point out I finally crossed 1000 posts.

Well, I feel vindicated.

9 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Well, I feel vindicated.

This thread might catch me up with you.

1 hour ago, awayputurwpn said:

You're both making assumptions—his based on something a character said in the films, and yours based on real-world geopolitics from previous centuries. That is the difference.

But, as had been pointed out by someone in this thread , the characters aren't necessarily correct. Anakin doesn't strike me as someone who cares enough about the law to actually learn about it.

He's saying whatever comes into his mind at this extremely stressful moment to preserve Palpatine for his use. And we know that Anakin lies a lot when it suits his desires.

The idea of Yoda as colonist is fascinating. He might be the most successful colonist the last 1,000 years or so, as he basical nourished the republic for 900 years, right out of infancy after the war with the sith.

Only the colonist in the sleeper ships from 20,000 years ago might have done a better job than him. °_^

And it would as well explain his core value of preservation and nourishment. building into consular makes in that context perfect sense, navigator would be nice too and his fascination with foresee would fit as well, as this is extremely helpful to determine the long term growth of the jedi order and the republic.

I concede, Yoda is not a guardian, he seems to be a colonist. With the legends background that seems plausible to me. I would assume peacekeeper or something which gives leadership as career skill from the guardian tree is still in that little green yoyo.