Just because a talent could contribute to a character doesn't mean that he absolutely must have it. Consider Han Solo: I could easily argue that the Offensive Driving talent (found exclusively in the BH Operator spec) would fit him, but that doesn't imply he must have that talent (and, by extension, the Operator spec).

4 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Just because a talent could contribute to a character doesn't mean that he absolutely must have it. Consider Han Solo: I could easily argue that the Offensive Driving talent (found exclusively in the BH Operator spec) would fit him, but that doesn't imply he must have that talent (and, by extension, the Operator spec).

Yup. The Warrior Aggression has another example, Against All Odds, that lets someone make a check to heal back some wounds when they're tipped over the threshold. There are many many character concepts that could make use of this talent, but not all of them are suited for dipping into the Aggressor tree just to get it.

On 2/14/2017 at 8:23 AM, DaverWattra said:

In some earlier versions of SWRPG (the first d20 edition, and also in D6 from what I understand?) hurting living beings with the Force counted as Dark Side use. This changed in Saga Edition, probably largely as a result of some of the offensive Force use we saw from Light Side characters like Obi-Wan.

But there's still something that feels borderline-Dark Side or "un-Jedi" to me about constantly whacking someone with Move. I like the idea that it's in the nature of the Force that using it to directly harm a person is taking a sort of risk, and this isn't the kind of attack you want to be making frequently.

In this system, the Dark Side mechanic is very forgiving. This strikes me as an opportunity to bring in this picture of the Force without cramping players' style too much. One could say that using a Force power to do wound damage causes one Conflict each time you do it... enough that it isn't a good idea to do it constantly, if you want to be a light sider, but a limited enough penalty that it's fine to do it once or twice a session.

Thoughts?

Personally, I see it like this...

1) Do you gain conflict for using your lightsaber or blaster to injure? If so, why?

2) With few exceptions, the Force isn't light or dark. Why should you be punished for using a tool that is available to you. Intent is where the conflict comes in. Some Force abilities are inherently Dark though and they should generate conflict when used.

38 minutes ago, Woobyluv said:

Intent is where the conflict comes in.

Well, not always. You can gain Conflict for circumstances out of your control. Conflict is more like....Strain for the soul. It regenerates every session that you had a chance to gain Conflict in, but the rate at which it regens may end up being slower than the rate you take 'Soul Strain.'

This may also help people come to understand Conflict as a resource in the same vein as Strain. Strain isn't a punishment visited upon you by an unjust GM. Sometimes it comes about through bad luck (Threat on a roll, a blaster set to Stun) but other times you spend it in return for a gain (getting an extra Maneuver, Parrying or Reflecting, using some Talents). Either way, it's not the end of the world or even the character, because it naturally recovers over time. Conflict can be similar. You may choose to suffer some Conflict to, for instance get a Force power off at a critical moment. You would likely confident that your soul will recover, as long as you don't make a habit of such things and generally keep your nose clean.

40 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Just because a talent could contribute to a character doesn't mean that he absolutely must have it. Consider Han Solo: I could easily argue that the Offensive Driving talent (found exclusively in the BH Operator spec) would fit him, but that doesn't imply he must have that talent (and, by extension, the Operator spec).

31 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Yup. The Warrior Aggression has another example, Against All Odds, that lets someone make a check to heal back some wounds when they're tipped over the threshold. There are many many character concepts that could make use of this talent, but not all of them are suited for dipping into the Aggressor tree just to get it.

The big difference is not so much a matter of whether or not is only contributes to the character, but whether or not the character embodies those abilities, and actually exhibits them within the source material, and Yoda certainly does exhibit and embody these talents on more than one occasion. They are integral parts of who he is. He is a font of wisdom, a deep contemplator of the Unifying Force, and a highly skilled negotiator. He is a true Sage, a skilled and acrobatic duelist, an exceptional teacher, a humble ascetic, a more than able diplomat and mediator, a true Consular at heart. And really none of the Guardian specs even come close to anything Yoda embodies.

It should also be noted that given that each Career has a unique combination of career skills, no two Jedi from different careers can really come out exactly the same. They can be similar, yes, but not identical. Each Career will imprint its own unique stamp on any given character.

What career skills a character has make no difference whatsoever when no accounting of XP is happening. Yoda can have maxed-out ranks in Negotiation even if it's not a career skill, and the same applies to all of the other on-screen characters.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yoda has been established in the canon as being very knowledgeable about the Force and Jedi lore; even more so than any other Jedi within the Order of his day. This certainly supports him having Knowledge Specialization (Lore). He has also been shown to meditate on the Force extremely frequently, and for long duration, and gets strength from this meditation, which is what One with the Universe does. He has also been shown to be a more than able negotiator, both within the Council, and when dealing with diplomatic missions. Thus Natural Negotiator is quite appropriate for him.

Yes, they certainly are appropriate but making him good at lore and strong with the force and a good negotiator are not dependent on those particular Talents. In other words, they are good choices, but by no means essential. In fact those talents are mechanically of secondary importance to other mechanical options (having ranks in Knowledge: Lore and an Intellect of 3 or higher for example, or having a high Force Rating or ranks in Negotiation). Other Careers can be excellent at those things too.

40 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The big difference is not so much a matter of whether or not is only contributes to the character, but whether or not the character embodies those abilities, and actually exhibits them within the source material, and Yoda certainly does exhibit and embody these talents on more than one occasion. They are integral parts of who he is. He is a font of wisdom, a deep contemplator of the Unifying Force, and a highly skilled negotiator. He is a true Sage, a skilled and acrobatic duelist, an exceptional teacher, a humble ascetic, a more than able diplomat and mediator, a true Consular at heart. And really none of the Guardian specs even come close to anything Yoda embodies.

It should also be noted that given that each Career has a unique combination of career skills, no two Jedi from different careers can really come out exactly the same. They can be similar, yes, but not identical. Each Career will imprint its own unique stamp on any given character.

You are arguing in circles. You're argument is one big tautology. A Consular is whatever it has to be in order to make Yoda fit it and anything else outside the Consular career that also fits Yoda either is subsumed by really (somehow) being a Consular (even if it's not mechanically - see your previous comments on Mystic really being a Consular of some sort) or is just some side aspect of Yoda.

Your approach is to fit Yoda into mechanically the Consular career because to you (though not in the canon) Yoda embodies the "consular" ideal.

Except every single attribute you say Yoda must have and be excellent at can be found in other Careers. In fact even you say Yoda must go into Ataru Striker. Why couldn't have Yoda started as an Ataru Striker and moved into other Specs and sunk points into Skills/Talents that make him good at negotiation and lore? Or was Yoda min/maxed by the Will of the Force?

Yoda must be good with the force and a consummate negotiator? Yep, so Mystic Seer + Advisor does both excellently. Mechanically speaking this is inarguable. Seer also has Lore as a career skill. It's also arguably very well suited to Yoda because in the canon we see him being more meditative and peering into the future than being a negotiator which mechanically and thematically speaking makes Seer a perfect choice. Seer also has more synergy with Ataru Striker than does Sage.

Then there is Seeker. It has Ataru Striker, Hermit and Navigator (Navigator has Once with the Universe as well and would really add to Yoda's fighting style as he'd flit around the battlefield; it also has the cheapest path to Force Rating +1). Seeker also has a powerful combat Signature Ability. Mechanically these could be good choices for Yoda, especially if you want to highlight his lightsaber abilities.

Guardian could be used to make Yoda good at Lore, Leadership (you tend to focus on Yoda as a negotiator but he's also a good leader), and using a lightsaber.

Every single mechanical characteristic you insist Yoda have can easily be done outside of the Consular career. You could even slap the label "consular" on the build even if it doesn't use any Consular specializations.

23 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

What career skills a character has make no difference whatsoever when no accounting of XP is happening. Yoda can have maxed-out ranks in Negotiation even if it's not a career skill, and the same applies to all of the other on-screen characters.

Sure it does. Regardless of how much accounting you do, it' still a fact that career skills are cheaper to buy, so, having a skill as a career skill allows you to spend what XP you have more wisely and this allowing you to get more out of the XP you have. Therefore choosing a career with the appropriate career skills for the character you want, as well as Specializations with the right combination of career skills and talents is vital. This is because you will be able to create the character you want using the fewest XP allowing you to save that XP for things such as Force powers and more.

10 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Yes, they certainly are appropriate but making him good at lore and strong with the force and a good negotiator are not dependent on those particular Talents. In other words, they are good choices, but by no means essential. In fact those talents are mechanically of secondary importance to other mechanical options (having ranks in Knowledge: Lore and an Intellect of 3 or higher for example, or having a high Force Rating or ranks in Negotiation). Other Careers can be excellent at those things too.

I think you miss the point. Having those talents, particularly in combination with high ranks in the skills themselves, as well as a high Force rating, which Yoda would certainly have, makes him much better than someone who only has the skill ranks and/or FR. And the canon certainly supports this. Yoda is the complete package. All three talents maxed out (along with several other talents), high ranks in the accompanying skills, and a very high FR.

I rewatched the Clone Wars episode Ambush last night (not because we we're talking about it but because I wanted to rewatch a bunch of the series in order again and it's the first episode).

The episodes beginning blue-lettered-quote is all about leadership.

Yoda does do some negotiation. It's not much. Mostly Dooku is doing the heavy negotiation. Mostly Yoda accepts Dooku/Ventress' challenge to defeat their forces to win over Katunko (Katunko wasn't going to go along with it because he didn't invite Yoda to do battle but is ok when Yoda accepts). Katunko is very amenable towards Yoda even before negotiations begin so Yoda didn't have to do much to "convince" him.

For most of the episode we see Yoda as a leader and a powerful combatant. Certainly the style of combat displayed is Ataru (he's jumping around the battlefield, so much so that maybe he has Navigator Talents?) but certainly Guardian would fit this episode - leadership and lightsaber prowess.

After Yoda has destroyed the droid battalion and saved Katunko's life from the treacherous Sith who tried to assassinate him, Katunko agrees to let the Republic use his planet to build a base.

So, it was 5% negotiation, 70% battle, and 25% leadership.

The behind the scenes episode brought out that the writers wanted to bring out Yoda as a good teacher (echoing scenes on Dagobah in Yoda's hut where he instructed and questioned Luke), particularly where Yoda was talking with clone troopers while they were resting and regrouping. So, Yoda as a teacher was also a theme (though if we must look at this through the RPG lense - Yoda as teacher could easily be done via role player rather than Talents/Skills, though Leadership would be a good substitute for teaching mechanically).

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Sure it does. Regardless of how much accounting you do, it' still a fact that career skills are cheaper to buy, so, having a skill as a career skill allows you to spend what XP you have more wisely and this allowing you to get more out of the XP you have. Therefore choosing a career with the appropriate career skills for the character you want, as well as Specializations with the right combination of career skills and talents is vital. This is because you will be able to create the character you want using the fewest XP allowing you to save that XP for things such as Force powers and more.

Yoda has a few Holocrons that give him those skills as Career skills. Fixed.

26 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

So, it was 5% negotiation, 70% battle, and 25% leadership.

Nice breakdown of the episode! I have no more Likes to give, but if I did, you'd be getting one

Edit: I got my likes back!! Look out, world.

9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Sure it does. Regardless of how much accounting you do, it' still a fact that career skills are cheaper to buy, so, having a skill as a career skill allows you to spend what XP you have more wisely and this allowing you to get more out of the XP you have. Therefore choosing a career with the appropriate career skills for the character you want, as well as Specializations with the right combination of career skills and talents is vital. This is because you will be able to create the character you want using the fewest XP allowing you to save that XP for things such as Force powers and more.

I think you miss the point. Having those talents, particularly in combination with high ranks in the skills themselves, as well as a high Force rating, which Yoda would certainly have, makes him much better than someone who only has the skill ranks and/or FR. And the canon certainly supports this. Yoda is the complete package. All three talents maxed out (along with several other talents), high ranks in the accompanying skills, and a very high FR.

Uh, you can create a Yoda as the "complete package" of being good at lore, the force, negotiation, and the lightsaber outside of Consular. Those elements are in Consular (except Ataru!) but they are also found elsewhere. And if you're going to insist that Yoda has to be the best in the galaxy at say negotiation then he'd actually have to go outside F&D Careers to do so. If you're going to insist that Yoda is the greatest master of Jedi lore in the galaxy then you're going to also have to go outside F&D Careers using your criteria (seeking out premier Talents related to that aspect).

Also, One with the Universe (also available in the Seeker Navigator) isn't the only Talent related to enhancing force use. It's one of many that could be used. You just picked one that is in Sage then declared it essential because you don't want to admit that Yoda can be built using various different talents.

You also seem to completely ignore completely Yoda's penchant for peering into the future and meditating deeply on things. Both of which or more the pervue of the Mystic (particularly Seer) than anything in Consular. If going by canon, Yoda as a seer is strongly established while his renown as a negotiator isn't really there.

Clearly Yoda, as a master of the force, Jedi lore and negotiation, has the Knowledge Is Power Talent. Exclusive to Mystic Advisor. For only 10XP!

Clearly this specialization and Career are essential to Yoda. If you don't get this one Talent and START in the Career it's in then obviously you aren't making Yoda good at using the force, lore, and knowledge.

3 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

You are arguing in circles. You're argument is one big tautology. A Consular is whatever it has to be in order to make Yoda fit it and anything else outside the Consular career that also fits Yoda either is subsumed by really (somehow) being a Consular (even if it's not mechanically - see your previous comments on Mystic really being a Consular of some sort) or is just some side aspect of Yoda.

Your approach is to fit Yoda into mechanically the Consular career because to you (though not in the canon) Yoda embodies the "consular" ideal.

Except every single attribute you say Yoda must have and be excellent at can be found in other Careers. In fact even you say Yoda must go into Ataru Striker. Why couldn't have Yoda started as an Ataru Striker and moved into other Specs and sunk points into Skills/Talents that make him good at negotiation and lore? Or was Yoda min/maxed by the Will of the Force?

Yoda must be good with the force and a consummate negotiator? Yep, so Mystic Seer + Advisor does both excellently. Mechanically speaking this is inarguable. Seer also has Lore as a career skill. It's also arguably very well suited to Yoda because in the canon we see him being more meditative and peering into the future than being a negotiator which mechanically and thematically speaking makes Seer a perfect choice. Seer also has more synergy with Ataru Striker than does Sage.

Then there is Seeker. It has Ataru Striker, Hermit and Navigator (Navigator has Once with the Universe as well and would really add to Yoda's fighting style as he'd flit around the battlefield; it also has the cheapest path to Force Rating +1). Seeker also has a powerful combat Signature Ability. Mechanically these could be good choices for Yoda, especially if you want to highlight his lightsaber abilities.

Guardian could be used to make Yoda good at Lore, Leadership (you tend to focus on Yoda as a negotiator but he's also a good leader), and using a lightsaber.

Every single mechanical characteristic you insist Yoda have can easily be done outside of the Consular career. You could even slap the label "consular" on the build even if it doesn't use any Consular specializations.

First off, the problem with Navigator, and the Seeker career as a whole is Yoda is not really known for his piloting. The Piloting skills are major parts of the Seeker career and the majority of the talents in Navigator revolve around star ship and vehicle piloting and navigation, two things Yoda is not well known for. So, while having Hermit and Ataru Striker as out of career specs are certainly appropriate (and Ataru Striker is essential (given that, canonically, that is the lightsaber style he uses), having Seeker as a career is not. The same with Seer and Advisor. Yes, those two specializations may suit Yoda, but not the Mystic career as a whole. For starters, look at the career skills and compare them to Consular. The Mystic career skills are: Charm, Coercion, Knowledge (lore), Perception, and Vigilance. the Consular career skills are Cool, Discipline, Knowledge (lore), Leadership, and Negotiation. Which combination of career skills does Yoda seem to possess? Which combination would give him the most millage what spending XP? The Consular career skill package would. He can get Charm from the Sage specialization easily enough. He can get Knowledge (Xenology), Lightsaber, and Perception from Arbiter, and Athletics and Resilience from Ascetic, all without leaving the Consular career. the same goes for the talents Yoda exhibits. All of them, save for his lightsaber fighting style, are found in Consular specializations.

Just now, Jedi Ronin said:

Clearly Yoda, as a master of the force, Jedi lore and negotiation, has the Knowledge Is Power Talent. Exclusive to Mystic Advisor. For only 10XP!

Clearly this specialization and Career are essential to Yoda. If you don't get this one Talent and START in the Career it's in then obviously you aren't making Yoda good at using the force, lore, and knowledge.

Fixed that for you.

Edit: Updated for the new hotness.

Going by canon we see Yoda do more piloting than we see him do negotiating. You think it's easy navigating a Jedi star fighter to some super mystical nexus of the force at the center of the galaxy to gain insight into the force making you immortal? Clearly R2 wasn't doing it because Yoda had to rely on the Force to get there. Right up the alley of Navigator.

Tramp, can you just say Yoda can be built using something other than Consular as a base career? You've been shown that's the case at least five times now.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

First off, the problem with Navigator, and the Seeker career as a whole is Yoda is not really known for his piloting. The Piloting skills are major parts of the Seeker career and the majority of the talents in Navigator revolve around star ship and vehicle piloting and navigation, two things Yoda is not well known for. So, while having Hermit and Ataru Striker as out of career specs are certainly appropriate (and Ataru Striker is essential (given that, canonically, that is the lightsaber style he uses), having Seeker as a career is not. The same with Seer and Advisor. Yes, those two specializations may suit Yoda, but not the Mystic career as a whole. For starters, look at the career skills and compare them to Consular. The Mystic career skills are: Charm, Coercion, Knowledge (lore), Perception, and Vigilance. the Consular career skills are Cool, Discipline, Knowledge (lore), Leadership, and Negotiation. Which combination of career skills does Yoda seem to possess? Which combination would give him the most millage what spending XP? The Consular career skill package would. He can get Charm from the Sage specialization easily enough. He can get Knowledge (Xenology), Lightsaber, and Perception from Arbiter, and Athletics and Resilience from Ascetic, all without leaving the Consular career. the same goes for the talents Yoda exhibits. All of them, save for his lightsaber fighting style, are found in Consular specializations.

You keep switching arguments.

You want to claim that almost-pure Consular (except for Ataru) is the most XP effecient way to create Yoda accurately? I think that's a defensible position (though I think Mystic might be better, it also has better synergy with Ataru Striker).

But this isn't what I'm arguing. I asked you point blank pages ago if it was simply just possible to do the concept of Yoda justice, mechanically, by not STARTING in Consular. You said, that no, that the ONLY fit for the character is starting in Consular. That's your contention, there is no other way to do it justice. It's simply not possible. There is only one fit, not a better fit amongst others. That's been your fundamental argument the whole time

But here you are arguing about XP effeciency again, which is totally irrelevant.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

You keep switching arguments.

Does he do anything else? He STILL hasn't replied to my post back here:

7 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Tramp, can you just say Yoda can be built using something other than Consular as a base career? You've been shown that's the case at least five times now.

Never happen. Yoda is and always will be a Consular.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Never happen. Yoda is and always will be a Consular.

So, we're all wrong and you're right?

We also have no information about Yoda as a youth. Maybe he's such a sticker for the Jedi Code and the dangers of the dark side because he had to learn it by very hard experience. Maybe he had to grow into becoming the iconic "consular" (conceptually). But he took a non-linear path. That would make the character actually interesting with an actual character arch.

Other than XP efficiency, or the Will of the Force min/maxing Yoda from the very beginning there is no reason - mechanically or narratively - why you MUST start in Consular.

6 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

You keep switching arguments.

You want to claim that almost-pure Consular (except for Ataru) is the most XP effecient way to create Yoda accurately? I think that's a defensible position (though I think Mystic might be better, it also has better synergy with Ataru Striker).

But this isn't what I'm arguing. I asked you point blank pages ago if it was simply just possible to do the concept of Yoda justice, mechanically, by not STARTING in Consular. You said, that no, that the ONLY fit for the character is starting in Consular. That's your contention, there is no other way to do it justice. It's simply not possible. There is only one fit, not a better fit amongst others. That's been your fundamental argument the whole time

But here you are arguing about XP effeciency again, which is totally irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant. It is very relevant. XP efficiency is one of the key factors in building any character. This is because the more you can get out of your XP the better off your character will be mechanically. Therefore, finding the right career, and the right combination of career skills, specializations, talents, and Force Powers is essential. This is also true when trying to build a canon character accurately for the fewest XP possible.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Never happen. Yoda is and always will be a Consular.

And we've looped around to the beginning of the circle again. Why is Yoda a consular? Because Yoda is a Consular.