13 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. I disagree with reason, and I explain my reasons. whether you like those reasons is irrelevant. I agree with people just as much as I disagree with them and often agree with someone on one thing and disagree with that same person on another.

No, you give bad reasons. When those reasons are countered you repeat your initial reason and just bold it. It's not that we dislike you're reasons. It's that when your logic is debunked and shown to be faulty you don't amend the logic but just double down and repeat the same thing again and again, only with bold letters. As if bolding something somehow makes the argument you lodged valid.

Tramp you didn't answer my question. Only confirmed Consular is not sufficient.

8 minutes ago, Kael said:

No, you give bad reasons. When those reasons are countered you repeat your initial reason and just bold it. It's not that we dislike you're reasons. It's that when your logic is debunked and shown to be faulty you don't amend the logic but just double down and repeat the same thing again and again, only with bold letters. As if bolding something somehow makes the argument you lodged valid.

That's how we Americans do it. He who is loudest and most stubborn wins. Facts are inconsequential in America.

Edit: I kind of feel bad for the OP. His legitimate thread has been hijacked by the same nonsense that has plagued these forums lately.

I'm all for lively debate but many of these conversations/arguments should have been their own threads. For instance, a thread debating how to build the most iconic Yoda would have been cool.

4 minutes ago, Kael said:

No, you give bad reasons. When those reasons are countered you repeat your initial reason and just bold it. It's not that we dislike you're reasons. It's that when your logic is debunked and shown to be faulty you don't amend the logic but just double down and repeat the same thing again and again, only with bold letters. As if bolding something somehow makes the argument you lodged valid.

No, they're not bad reasons. They're just reasons you disagree with. And me sticking to the validity of my reasons does not make me a Troll.

4 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Tramp you didn't answer my question. Only confirmed Consular is not sufficient.

Consular as a career is perfectly sufficient. even with Yoda having one or two out of career specs, that does not equate to Consular not being sufficient as a career choice for him.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Consular as a career is perfectly sufficient. even with Yoda having one or two out of career specs, that does not equate to Consular not being sufficient as a career choice for him.

But how is something aside from a Consular insufficient?

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yes, Signature Abilities is one of the key factors. That and the majority of Specs he would have. However, it is more than just the "mechanical" I am looking at. The game mechanics are but one part of the reasoning; a big part, but still only one part.

I actually like both interpretations - that Yoda was always the old soul consular was in his last century, and the idea that he was a wild child, Sith on Dagobah hunting Jedi heartthrob who came to the conclusion that a Consular's role was 'better/more proper for later centuries' and he has to work to hold true to the Consular path.

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, they're not bad reasons. They're just reasons you disagree with. And me sticking to the validity of my reasons does not make me a Troll.

5 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

They're bad reasons dude. You argue with a lot of bad logic. You make self-contradictory statements. You argue one position in one thread and then conveniently change positions in another thread and act as if you hadn't. You provide insufficient evidence to support your cases. You flit between when canon is the only thing required to digging up random EU sources. When people point it out you toss a tantrum and derail entire threads, like this one and so many others.

I wish disagreeing with you was the real problem, but it's not.

Just now, StarkJunior said:

But how is something aside from a Consular insufficient?

For a number of reasons, some of which are mechanical, others are based upon precedence and his portrayal in the movies. Mechanically, the majority of Specializations Yoda would have are Consular Specializations, as are any Signature abilities he would have (Much to Learn being a big one). Precedence already establishes Yoda as a Consular within the canon both old and new. And his portrayal in the movies show him primarily as the wise sage and teacher more than anything else. All of these establish him as a Consular. Therefore, it is really the only Career path that fits him, even if he has a couple of out of career specs along the way. .

This is the only "lore" I accept for the establishment of Yoda's character.

1 minute ago, Kael said:

They're bad reasons dude. You argue with a lot of bad logic. You make self-contradictory statements. You argue one position in one thread and then conveniently change positions in another thread and act as if you hadn't. You provide insufficient evidence to support your cases. You flit between when canon is the only thing required to digging up random EU sources. When people point it out you toss a tantrum and derail entire threads, like this one and so many others.

I wish disagreeing with you was the real problem, but it's not.

I hate to tell you this, but I have remained quite calm through all of this. Whether you agree with my reasoning, or think they're "self-contradictory" or not, or whether you find my evidence "insufficient". I have never resorted to name calling, nor bullying. I simply stick to my guns. If you don't like it, that's fine. If you don't agree with it, that's fine. I don't have to change my views.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

For a number of reasons, some of which are mechanical, others are based upon precedence and his portrayal in the movies. Mechanically, the majority of Specializations Yoda would have are Consular Specializations, as are any Signature abilities he would have (Much to Learn being a big one). Precedence already establishes Yoda as a Consular within the canon both old and new. And his portrayal in the movies show him primarily as the wise sage and teacher more than anything else. All of these establish him as a Consular. Therefore, it is really the only Career path that fits him, even if he has a couple of out of career specs along the way. .

Buddy, we don't know what those Signature Abilities do, and you can take out-of-career specializations. You're not proving your point, at all.

You still haven't answered my question.

Which specific Talent from any Consular spec is absolutely essential and is only found in a Consular spec?

9 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Buddy, we don't know what those Signature Abilities do, and you can take out-of-career specializations. You're not proving your point, at all.

No, we don't, but the names do give us a hint. Given the precedence set with the other Signature abilities we already have for Seekers, Guardians and Sentinels, the names of each gives us a pretty good idea of what they do. Therefore, Much to Learn definitely suggests some form of teaching, or other means of giving a "lesson" of some sort. Unmatched Negotiations, that's self-explanatory. It provides some sort of bonus to a character's ability to negotiate.

5 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

You still haven't answered my question.

Which specific Talent from any Consular spec is absolutely essential and is only found in a Consular spec?

Knowledge Specialization, for starters. It's only available with Sage, as is Natural Negotiator and One with the Universe.

33 minutes ago, ghatt said:

For instance, lightsaber forms wouldn't be considered out of career specs for legit, temple trained Jedi.

Why wouldn't they? It's not like it being an out of career spec is limiting in any way. It's just an added cost of 10 XP, and a tree you can't link Signature Abilities to, that's all. Neither of those are really all that limiting.

1 minute ago, HappyDaze said:

Why wouldn't they? It's not like it being an out of career spec is limiting in any way. It's just an added cost of 10 XP, and a tree you can't link Signature Abilities to, that's all. Neither of those are really all that limiting.

With as many trees as you'd need to create a good facsimile of a legit Jedi you'd have spent a rather large amount of XP on out of career lightsaber specs. As far as thought experiments go that doesn't seem too bad, but actually trying to progress such a character would be miserable.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I simply stick to my guns. If you don't like it, that's fine. If you don't agree with it, that's fine. I don't have to change my views.

"Sticking to one's guns" and "repeating oneself" are two different things. You talk about debating, but bringing up the same old arguments over and over is not debate.

"Yoda is a Consular, because Consulars are based on Jedi Consulars, and Jedi Consulars were based on Yoda, and Yoda is a Jedi Consular, therefore Yoda is a Consular, because Consulars are based on Jedi Consulars..."

That is not just sticking to your guns, and it is certainly not debating. It is circular reasoning, which refutes any attempts to speak into the cycle. And this is why trying to have such a discussion is frustrating for many of the folks here.

20 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I hate to tell you this, but I have remained quite calm through all of this. Whether you agree with my reasoning, or think they're "self-contradictory" or not, or whether you find my evidence "insufficient". I have never resorted to name calling, nor bullying. I simply stick to my guns. If you don't like it, that's fine. If you don't agree with it, that's fine. I don't have to change my views.

Remaining calm doesn't mean your behavior has not been disruptive. You've calmly derailed a fairly useful topic. And we know you stick to your guns. You stick to them when you're wrong. You stick to them when proof is shown that your position is faulty. You stick to them when your logic is bad.

As I said, if only disagreeing was the real problem here.

16 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Knowledge Specialization, for starters. It's only available with Sage, as is Natural Negotiator and One with the Universe.

Why would Yoda have to have those talents? Does not having them absolutely prevent him from doing anything we have seen him do?

1 minute ago, awayputurwpn said:

"Sticking to one's guns" and "repeating oneself" are two different things. You talk about debating, but bringing up the same old arguments over and over is not debate.

"Yoda is a Consular, because Consulars are based on Jedi Consulars, and Jedi Consulars were based on Yoda, and Yoda is a Jedi Consular, therefore Yoda is a Consular, because Consulars are based on Jedi Consulars..."

That is not just sticking to your guns, and it is certainly not debating. It is circular reasoning, which refutes any attempts to speak into the cycle. And this is why trying to have such a discussion is frustrating for many of the folks here.

In some cultures "sticking to ones guns" is praised as a positive trait. I mean, if you believe in your opinion so strongly that you refuse to give an inch, then it must be right kind of thing. Ultimately, he who gets the last word is seldom correct, but he may be able to fool a few who aren't paying close attention.

I do think that we should try and keep things civil, and not resort to the kind of behavior that is historically uncharacteristic of these forums: specifically, name calling and accusations. Flame-baiting should be ignored.

BTW, good job dodging Godwyn's Law back there, everyone

Sticking to your guns when you've run out ammo (or never had any ammo to begin with) is a sure way to die like a fool.

3 minutes ago, HappyDaze said:

Why would Yoda have to have those talents? Does not having them absolutely prevent him from doing anything we have seen him do?

There are several talents from the Guardian career that I think fit Yoda perfectly...but not many from Consular. Maybe some from Niman Disciple, but that's about it. Everything else he could get from other careers, like Mystic and Seeker. Consular just isn't a dead ringer for Yoda.

Just now, awayputurwpn said:

There are several talents from the Guardian career that I think fit Yoda perfectly...but not many from Consular. Maybe some from Niman Disciple, but that's about it. Everything else he could get from other careers, like Mystic and Seeker. Consular just isn't a dead ringer for Yoda.

This is also the game that says Luke is an Ace even if much of the later days versions of Luke are far more Force-focused, so there's no need to find a "perfect" fit.

32 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, we don't, but the names do give us a hint. Given the precedence set with the other Signature abilities we already have for Seekers, Guardians and Sentinels, the names of each gives us a pretty good idea of what they do. Therefore, Much to Learn definitely suggests some form of teaching, or other means of giving a "lesson" of some sort. Unmatched Negotiations, that's self-explanatory. It provides some sort of bonus to a character's ability to negotiate.

Knowledge Specialization, for starters. It's only available with Sage, as is Natural Negotiator and One with the Universe.

Why are those mechanically essential?

14 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

I do think that we should try and keep things civil, and not resort to the kind of behavior that is historically uncharacteristic of these forums: specifically, name calling and accusations. Flame-baiting should be ignored.

BTW, good job dodging Godwyn's Law back there, everyone

Haven't things been mostly civil though? Despite Stan and Tramp's claims otherwise I don't really recall anyone actually flaming anyone. Maybe doing away with tact and just calling a spade a spade but no out right flaming or name calling.