I didn't invoke it for my argument, so I don't have to.

9 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

So, when Anakin is hacking people with his lightsaber as part of "aggressive negotiations" he's also negotiating? You're being extraordinarily pedantic.

And your response to me doesn't really address my point. Yes, Consular is probably the best fit but it's not the only fit and it's not the only way to make a decent Yoda character. Consular has Sage and Teacher which are really good fits. And Niman Disciple if you just want to go the "good with a lightsaber" route instead of insisting on Ataru. Mystic has Seer and Advisor. Seeker has Ataru Striker and Hermit but has an initial skill selection that's not as good as Mystic or Consular. Consular is likely to have a good Yoda Signature Ability. Mystic likely will too. And if you knew you had a character you'd be able to sink 2000+XP into then you could also get away with Guardian (or Warrior or whatever). At the end of that journey you'd still be able to stay true to the character and there are rational reasons to emphasize some aspects over others or even the order in which you want to emphasize them (which Signature Ability being one).

Again, no one disagrees that Consular is a great fit, probably the best fit, for Yoda. The issue is that it's not the only fit. You keep ignoring this. You keep repeating "But it's the BEST!" Yeah, ok, but that's not what we're arguing. You seem to sorta concede this point when you said that Mystic is somehow a splinter off of Consular...but saying you're still right and a Mystic character is really just a Consular character.

You could create a 2000-XP Consular Yoda character and someone else could create a Mystic Yoda character and another person could create a 2000XP Guardian Yoda character and they each could do the concept justice. Are you really insisting this isn't possible?

That's just it though I'm not being Pendantic about it at all. Watch that episode again. actually watch it. Yoda doe specifically negotiate with both Ventriss and Katuunko even before the battle started. First, he negotiated the terms of the fight, secondly, he negotiated what the outcome would be if he and his troops won. He made a deal. That is negotiations, and all of that took place before he even landed.

As for his Lightsaber specialization. Canonically, Yoda has been firmly established as being a Master of Ateru. This is supported by how he fights in both AotC and RotS, a very acrobatic style with a lot of flips and somersaults. Therefore Ateru Striker is a necessity for any Yoda build.

As for my supposedly "ignoring" you assertion that Consular is not the "only" fit. I simply disagree with that view. Consular is the only fit as far as I am concerned. The onyl concession I have with Mystic is if you see it as a splinter from Consular. But, as far as I am concerned, and as far as every source I have read and seen support, Yoda is and always has been (since hte term was introduced) a Consular. Not a Guardian, Not a Sentinqel, not a Seeker, not a Warrior. A Consular.

15 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

I think he means moved into Seeker/Mystic/Consular specializations. Also, you still haven't answered -

Yes, I have. And no, none of the other careers really do Yoda justice. The argument that Mystic could work is tenuous at best and only if you look at it as a splinter from Consular. Even then only one Mystic specialization really works with Yoda. Seeker only has two: Ateru Striker and Hermit, and the latter really only much later in life.

4 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Ah I see what I did there. Sorry, I wasn't trying to say you can't make Jedi from the specializations in FaD. I meant that all the careers and specializations are good for building all sorts of Force users, and that a Consular need not be an actual Jedi, just like a Warrior can be a Jedi.

No one is arguing against that. My point there, however, is that, according to the career books themselves specifically have their origins within the Jedi Order. Thus, while they most certainly can be used to simulate other Force traditions, (and we are expected to, in many cases), they are fully intended to create "Jedi" characters, or, more specifically, characters aspiring to be Jedi, depending upon the era.

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Where in the rules does it say being 900 years old gives you special consideration for career choice? The game does not assume PCs to exclusively operate on a human lifespan. There are PC species that can be centuries old when they start.

Exactly.

2 minutes ago, Dunefarble said:

Can you cite the legal code that make the Sith religion illegal?

Let's stop feeding the troll. He's just trying to bait you guys. Let's stop falling for it, shall we?

7 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Can you cite this legal code which made Windu's actions illegal?

Are you suggesting that murder of an unarmed, subdued person isn't illegal in the Republic? Because if so...wow, dude. Talk about twisting yourself into a pretzel.

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for my supposedly "ignoring" you assertion that Consular is not the "only" fit. I simply disagree with that view. Consular is the only fit as far as I am concerned. The onyl concession I have with Mystic is if you see it as a splinter from Consular. But, as far as I am concerned, and as far as every source I have read and seen support, Yoda is and always has been (since hte term was introduced) a Consular. Not a Guardian, Not a Sentinqel, not a Seeker, not a Warrior. A Consular.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Just now, StarkJunior said:

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

What an absolute thing to say .

The forbidden technique cliche is indeed overused, though I like Vaapad, especially as Ataru is not really aggressive, but mainly just acrobatic, cool and a little silly. .

9 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

I didn't invoke it for my argument, so I don't have to.

Weren't you the one going on about fairness, here? If you were trying to be fair, wouldn't you be pointing out all the times Tramp is wrong?

3 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

The forbidden technique cliche is indeed overused, though I like Vaapad, especially as Ataru is not really aggressive, but mainly just acrobatic, cool and a little silly. .

You callin' my character silly?!

16 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

The forbidden technique cliche is indeed overused, though I like Vaapad, especially as Ataru is not really aggressive, but mainly just acrobatic, cool and a little silly. .

I dunno, with it's emphasis in FFG on "Finish the fight quickly," I always got the impression that it's about using athletics to overwhelm an opponents defenses and end a fight quickly. I think in Legends, it was a style specifically developed as a counterpoint to Soresu, which embodies the opposite philosophy.

Not to say that a Juyo/Vapaad couldn't be well done, just don't know what niche it would fill and I'm not a huge fan of the lore behind it.

Edit: checked the wook on Ataru. Not much on it in Canon yet, but in Legends the word "aggressive" pops up 7 times in the article and it's called "The Aggression Form"

6 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

I dunno, with it's emphasis in FFG on "Finish the fight quickly," I always got the impression that it's about using athletics to overwhelm an opponents defenses and end a fight quickly. I think in Legends, it was a style specifically developed as a counterpoint to Soresu, which embodies the opposite philosophy.

Not to say that a Juyo/Vapaad couldn't be well done, just don't know what niche it would fill and I'm not a huge fan of the lore behind it.

I like to think that Vapaad was developed when Yoda was teaching Mace lightsaber techniques. He watched Yoda jump around a la prequels, said hell no and developed his own technique.

22 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Are you suggesting that murder of an unarmed, subdued person isn't illegal in the Republic? Because if so...wow, dude. Talk about twisting yourself into a pretzel.

Summary execution of a traitor during wartime.

Besides, Palpatine was neither unarmed nor subdued.

I can't remember, was Juyo another name for Vapaad, or were they distinct forms?

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

Summary execution of a traitor during wartime.

You need a trial to prove that. Anakin was literally pointing this out, while Windu was insisting that they had to bypass the courts and the Senate. Regardless of what you think of the morality of the act, the legality of it is pretty clear from the dialogue.

Quote

Besides, Palpatine was neither unarmed nor subdue.

He was literally begging for mercy. Fake or not, he stopped resisting. Killing someone at that point IS illegal.

19 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Weren't you the one going on about fairness, here? If you were trying to be fair, wouldn't you be pointing out all the times Tramp is wrong?

If you or someone else already did that, what purpose would that serve besides grandstanding?

Just now, Dunefarble said:

I can't remember, was Juyo another name for Vapaad, or were they distinct forms?

Juyo was a Sith lightsaber Form that was forbidden knowledge, Vapaad was the "clean" version developed by Mace that lead him perilously close to the Dark Side or something.

Despite how much I love Sam. L Jackson, the whole Vapaad thing got a little snowflakey for my tastes.

Tramp you do realize you can create 2 separate characters from 2 different careers then spend 2000XP and end up with perfectly identical characters right?

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

If you or someone else already did that, what purpose would that serve besides grandstanding?

So you're NOT interested in fairness, you're just trolling. Good to know.

2 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Juyo was a Sith lightsaber Form that was forbidden knowledge, Vapaad was the "clean" version developed by Mace that lead him perilously close to the Dark Side or something.

Despite how much I love Sam. L Jackson, the whole Vapaad thing got a little snowflakey for my tastes.

I liked all the personal touches they gave Mace Windu's character. Gave him some personal flair and depth, unlike some of the other Jedi.

1 minute ago, Benjan Meruna said:

You need a trial to prove that. Anakin was literally pointing this out, while Windu was insisting that they had to bypass the courts and the Senate. Regardless of what you think of the morality of the act, the legality of it is pretty clear from the dialogue.

He was literally begging for mercy. Fake or not, he stopped resisting. Killing someone at that point IS illegal.

Anakin thought he needed Palpatine. he wasn't arguing legal matters.

Also, you don't actually need a trial during wartime in some legal systems. Execution of traitors without a trial was legal until relatively recently in many countries. I wouldn't assume the Republic doesn't have such laws. It's the space Roman Wild West, after all.

Just now, ghatt said:

I liked all the personal touches they gave Mace Windu's character. Gave him some personal flair and depth, unlike some of the other Jedi.

And you know what? I respect that, and I do not hold my opinions as absolute over you

And I DID love that Sam. L. got purple lightsabers into canon. He's my hero for that alone.

1 minute ago, Benjan Meruna said:

So you're NOT interested in fairness, you're just trolling. Good to know.

Ah, I don't jump through your hoops, therefore I'm a troll. Of course.

1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

Anakin thought he needed Palpatine. he wasn't arguing legal matters.

Quote

PALPATINE: I can't ... I give up. Help me. I am weak ... I am too weak. Don't kill me. I give up. I'm dying. I can't hold on any longer.

MACE WlNDU: You Sith disease. I am going to end this once and for all.

ANAKIN: You can't kill him, Master. He must stand trial.

MACE WlNDU: He has too much control of the Senate and the Courts. He is too dangerous to be kept alive.

PALPATINE: I'm too weak. Don't kill me. Please.

ANAKIN: It is not the Jedi way . . .

MACE raises his sword to kill the CHANCELLOR.

ANAKIN: (continuing) He must live . . .

PALPATINE: Please don't, please don't . . .

ANAKIN: I need him . . .

PALPATINE: Please don't . . .

ANAKIN: NO!!!

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Ah, I don't jump through your hoops, therefore I'm a troll. Of course.

You argue only for one side while decrying the other side as one-sided. You're either a troll or a giant hypocrite.

Just now, Benjan Meruna said:

You need a trial to prove that. Anakin was literally pointing this out, while Windu was insisting that they had to bypass the courts and the Senate. Regardless of what you think of the morality of the act, the legality of it is pretty clear from the dialogue.

He was literally begging for mercy. Fake or not, he stopped resisting. Killing someone at that point IS illegal.

Technically, no, you don't. That's what Summary execution is.

Just now, Jedi Ronin said:

Tramp you do realize you can create 2 separate characters from 2 different careers then spend 2000XP and end up with perfectly identical characters right?

Not necessarily. And not really. You might end up with the same specializations, but in different orders, and also have different options available to them.

22 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

I dunno, with it's emphasis in FFG on "Finish the fight quickly," I always got the impression that it's about using athletics to overwhelm an opponents defenses and end a fight quickly. I think in Legends, it was a style specifically developed as a counterpoint to Soresu, which embodies the opposite philosophy.

Not to say that a Juyo/Vapaad couldn't be well done, just don't know what niche it would fill and I'm not a huge fan of the lore behind it.

Edit: checked the wook on Ataru. Not much on it in Canon yet, but in Legends the word "aggressive" pops up 7 times in the article and it's called "The Aggression Form"

The canon section for Form IV specificaly refers to it as a "acrobatic style":

Quote

Form IV, also known as Ataru, was the fourth form of lightsabercombat invented by the Jedi Order. An acrobatic combat style, Ataru could be used to defend against incoming projectiles, and was best suited for open spaces. When the Galactic Republic was in its last years of existence, Anakin Skywalker made adjustments to the classic Form IV techniques and demonstrated them in a holographic recording, later found in Kanan Jarrus' holocron.

The Legends section also lists Yoda as a key practitioner of this style, which is further supported by what we see in the movies. As is the description of the style involving a lot of back-flips and somersaults,