Saga Edition Star Wars seemed to be able to "officially" stat up Yoda with only barely dipping into Consular.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not really. Pretty much ever specialization Yoda would have, barring his Lightsaber style specialization, which is definitely Ateru Striker, they almost all fit under the Consular Career specializations: Sage, Ascetic, Teacher, etc. In fact, I'd be willing to say he probably has pretty much all of the Consular Specs, and probably maxed them all out to boot. Might he have a couple of Mystic or other Seeker specs as well? Sure. Hermit would be a good one. But not Guardian Specs, nor Warrior, and probably not Sentinel either. There is nothing in his personality, nor how he deals with things (inside or outside of combat) which suggests any of the specializations from those careers.

Loosen up, Tramp. It's fun to not be so uptight sometimes. It's s game, people are going to do as they please. I fully support you starting Yoda in the Consular career. I fully support someone else starting him off as a Guardian or a Mystic. Hell, I'd support someone starting him in a non FaD career. Who's to say how old he was when he came to the Jedi Order? If I was GMing a game that lasted 900 game years I'd probably come up with a career change mechanic if it was important to a player to do so. Nice thing about this system is that it's very flexible.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not really. Pretty much ever specialization Yoda would have, barring his Lightsaber style specialization, which is definitely Ateru Striker, they almost all fit under the Consular Career specializations: Sage, Ascetic, Teacher, etc. In fact, I'd be willing to say he probably has pretty much all of the Consular Specs, and probably maxed them all out to boot. Might he have a couple of Mystic or other Seeker specs as well? Sure. Hermit would be a good one. But not Guardian Specs, nor Warrior, and probably not Sentinel either. There is nothing in his personality, nor how he deals with things (inside or outside of combat) which suggests any of the specializations from those careers.

So, Consular is the best fit but you could do it other ways and still do the character concept justice? (Noting again that Career does not determine personality or outlook)

3 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

KR Kappel could have chosen Consular as Yoda's Career. But I wasn't in any of the games he's run so I don't know. But he could have used it using any Career - especially since he didn't have any Consular Signature Abilities there would essentially be zero impact of picking Consular over any other career with such a high level XP character.

And you didn't really address any of my arguments. You keep repeating yourself but you're not really engaging.

Core personality is not determined by Career. Your Morality has more to do with that than Career but mostly core personality is whatever you want it to be. Picking a career doesn't lock you into a character's personality or focus. It offers you beginning options and a Signature Ability.

And you keep saying the Consular is Yoda's obvious focus. Yes - you can build a fine Yoda using Consular. It might even be the best overall fit. But you could also go with Mystic. Or Seeker if you wanted a Yoda that started out with Ataru ability and you like the Seeker Signature Ability good at doing devastating lightsaber attacks.

Really, are you going to tell people who are building Yoda from scratch they are "wrong" to first pick Mystic Seer? Someone really can't make Yoda this way? 2000XP later this character won't be the iconic Yoda?

Considering that Mystic appears to be essentially a split-off from Consular? What do you think? This can be backed up with the fact that Jedi Seer (the Seer specialization being a Mystic specialization in F&D) is listed as a specialized path of Jedi Consular on the Consular Wookieepeida page, (as is Artisan for that matter). Also, I don't really see Yoda having nor exhibiting either of the Seeker Signature Abilities. However, the Much to Learn and Unmatched Negotiataion Signature abilities from the upcoming Disciples of Harmony most certainly fit right up Yoda's alley.

7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Considering that Mystic appears to be essentially a split-off from Consular? What do you think? This can be backed up with the fact that Jedi Seer (the Seer specialization being a Mystic specialization in F&D) is listed as a specialized path of Jedi Consular on the Consular Wookieepeida page, (as is Artisan for that matter). Also, I don't really see Yoda having nor exhibiting either of the Seeker Signature Abilities. However, the Much to Learn and Unmatched Negotiataion Signature abilities from the upcoming Disciples of Harmony most certainly fit right up Yoda's alley.

I wouldn't say Mystic is an offshoot of the Consular career, as far as this game is concerned. The Nightsisters of Dathomir could be described as mystics, amongst other things, and they certainly aren't your typical Jedi style consulars.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Considering that Mystic appears to be essentially a split-off from Consular? What do you think? This can be backed up with the fact that Jedi Seer (the Seer specialization being a Mystic specialization in F&D) is listed as a specialized path of Jedi Consular on the Consular Wookieepeida page, (as is Artisan for that matter). Also, I don't really see Yoda having nor exhibiting either of the Seeker Signature Abilities. However, the Much to Learn and Unmatched Negotiataion Signature abilities from the upcoming Disciples of Harmony most certainly fit right up Yoda's alley.

Is this your round about way of saying that yes, you can make a decent Yoda character starting in Mystic?

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Considering that Mystic appears to be essentially a split-off from Consular? What do you think? This can be backed up with the fact that Jedi Seer (the Seer specialization being a Mystic specialization in F&D) is listed as a specialized path of Jedi Consular on the Consular Wookieepeida page, (as is Artisan for that matter). Also, I don't really see Yoda having nor exhibiting either of the Seeker Signature Abilities. However, the Much to Learn and Unmatched Negotiataion Signature abilities from the upcoming Disciples of Harmony most certainly fit right up Yoda's alley.

Forget you must your heretic teachings. Forget the past and learn to click the canon page you must.

Anyway, I actually can not think of a single case when Yoda successful negotiated anything. Convinced by force yes, but in the negotiation room? That is actually unlike Kenobi who was quite good at it. What do those signature abilities. Unmatched Negotiation und Much to learn what do they?

3 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Forget you must your heretic teachings. Forget the past and learn to click the canon page you must.

Anyway, I actually can not think of a single case when Yoda successful negotiated anything. Convinced by force yes, but in the negotiation room? That is actually unlike Kenobi who was quite good at it. What do those signature abilities. Unmatched Negotiation und Much to learn what do they?

So you're saying Yoda the negotiations with the Toydarian king wasn't successful? How so?

As for what each of the two signature abilities from DoH do exactly, that's a good question. We'll just have to wait and see.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

So you're saying Yoda the negotiations with the Toydarian king wasn't successful? How so?

Quote

Jedi Master Yoda is dispatched to the dried coral moon of Rugosa to convince King Katuunko to allow the Republic to build a base in Toydarian territory. As the Toydarian monarch King Katuunko and his retinue await the arrival of their Jedi envoy, Asajj Ventress arrives and presents Katuunko with a hologram of CountDooku, who attempts to express the Jedi's supposed incapability to protect Toydaria in hopes of swaying the king to his cause. In orbit of the Rugosa moon, two Banking Clan frigates ambush Yoda's ship, forcing him to take an escape pod while his ship escapes the system. Three clones—Lieutenant Thire, Jek and Rys—accompany him to the surface.

The Republic frigate leaves the system, a move that Asajj Ventress spins to the king as a sign of weakness. Her attempts at persuasion are interrupted however by a holographic call from Yoda, in which the Jedi Master offers his greetings. Ventress then suggests a deal: if Yoda can escape her best troops, then Toydaria will be free to join the Republic. But if he should fail and the droids prevail, Toydaria will join the Separatists.

Yoda leading Thire, Jek and Rys.

Agreeing to Ventress' proposal, Yoda and his troops march through the coral forest as a Separatist landing ship carrying a full battalion of droids arrives. Yoda and his men then face off against a large number of droids and several tanks.

...
Katuunko is impressed by the display, and opts to have Toydaria join the Republic. Furious about the outcome, Dooku orders Ventress to kill the king. Ventress knocks the king's Toydarian royal guards unconscious and prepares to deal the killing blow, but Master Yoda arrives just in time, stopping Ventress mid-swing. Rather than surrender, Ventress quickly triggers an avalanche with pre-planted explosive charges, using it as a distraction to escape in her solar sailer. King Katuunko gladly accepts Yoda's offer to join the Republic, and Republic gunships come to retrieve the group.

I think he's saying that Yoda convinced Katuunko through force of arms, showing that the Jedi and the Republic were strong enough to protect the Toydarians. Sounds a lot like something a Guardian would do...

Bottom line: Does a Signature Ability make or break the concept? Obviously no. That's really the only big difference here. You don't even need to get a Signature Ability. Even if it's important to you and given that Much To Learn sounds like it will be a very Yoda-like ability I'd bet that Mystic will also have a very Yoda-like Signature Ability (and as others have mentioned you could play the Yoda/Sidious confrontation using the Guardian's Signature Ability quite well).

And it's a matter of what you want to emphasize. Both in the what Signature Ability you want and in which trees you want to spend most of your XP in. I think Seer is a better fit for Yoda than Sage. He could take both. But if you want to emphasize Career a Mystic Seer + Advisor is just as viable as a Consular Sage + Teacher.

And who's to say where Yoda started? He could have started as a Guardian or a Seeker then moved into Mystic and/or Consular later.

Maybe since Yoda's player wasn't min/maxing everything the GM was generous with XP and after a long campaign the 2000XP character of Yoda was realized. And looking back, maybe Consular would have made a better fit from the beginning but then again there those times the PC used that Seeker/Guardian/Mystic Signature Ability that really cemented his reputation as a master swordsman/wise seer.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

So you're saying Yoda the negotiations with the Toydarian king wasn't successful? How so?

As in Yoda was not negotiating, he was showing a feat of strength and combat prowess which convinced the king that he was not acting against the interest of his people when declining the offer of the separatists. The king trusted in the power to protect of the jedi based on action, not words. Destroying the enemy army is for sure not a diplomatic solution to the problem.

You could say that Binks showed more diplomatic success than Yoda. But that would be unfair to Yoda.

8 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

I think he's saying that Yoda convinced Katuunko through force of arms, showing that the Jedi and the Republic were strong enough to protect the Toydarians. Sounds a lot like something a Guardian would do...

Yoda used Force of arms to back up his negotiations. He does so through the deal he negotiated with Ventriss and Katuuunko.

7 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

As in Yoda was not negotiating, he was showing a feat of strength and combat prowess which convinced the king that he was not acting against the interest of his people when declining the offer of the separatists. The king trusted in the power to protect of the jedi based on action, not words. Destroying the enemy army is for sure not a diplomatic solution to the problem.

You could say that Binks showed more diplomatic success than Yoda. But that would be unfair to Yoda.

I disagree. Yoda definitely negotiated that treaty, quite successfully I might add. Were the negotiations rather "unorthodox"? Absolutely, but they were negotiations, but with Katuunko and with Ventriss.

15 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Bottom line: Does a Signature Ability make or break the concept? Obviously no. That's really the only big difference here. You don't even need to get a Signature Ability. Even if it's important to you and given that Much To Learn sounds like it will be a very Yoda-like ability I'd bet that Mystic will also have a very Yoda-like Signature Ability (and as others have mentioned you could play the Yoda/Sidious confrontation using the Guardian's Signature Ability quite well).

And it's a matter of what you want to emphasize. Both in the what Signature Ability you want and in which trees you want to spend most of your XP in. I think Seer is a better fit for Yoda than Sage. He could take both. But if you want to emphasize Career a Mystic Seer + Advisor is just as viable as a Consular Sage + Teacher.

And who's to say where Yoda started? He could have started as a Guardian or a Seeker then moved into Mystic and/or Consular later.

Maybe since Yoda's player wasn't min/maxing everything the GM was generous with XP and after a long campaign the 2000XP character of Yoda was realized. And looking back, maybe Consular would have made a better fit from the beginning but then again there those times the PC used that Seeker/Guardian/Mystic Signature Ability that really cemented his reputation as a master swordsman/wise seer.

Once again, the rules as written don't allow a character to switch careers, hence Yoda can only have one career, regardless of what specializations he might take. That is the key point. And with Yoda, Pretty much all of the Consular Specs (except for Healer or Niman Disciple) fit Yoda perfectly, with one or two from Seeker and Mystic also being appropriate as out of career specs. Looking at the descriptions of the new specs from DoH, I'd say Yoda best fits this order of specs: Arbiter, Ateru Sriker, Teacher, Sage, Seer, Ascetic, Hermit.

I think he means moved into Seeker/Mystic/Consular specializations. Also, you still haven't answered -

1 hour ago, Jedi Ronin said:

So, Consular is the best fit but you could do it other ways and still do the character concept justice? (Noting again that Career does not determine personality or outlook)

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yoda used Force of arms to back up his negotiations. He does so through the deal he negotiated with Ventriss and Katuuunko.

And brilliant his negotiations have been. You could call them offensive negotiation. Or maybe that is the unmatched negotiation talent.

Meanwhile on Raxulon, Senator Amidala and Mina Bonteri almost end the clone wars true peaceful negotiations, until they were stopped on the negotiation table from Head of State Dooku, killing Bonteri and framing the Republic through aggressive negotiation tactics.

I know when I lost a discussion, when I can 't on the definition of basic words. Sajonara.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yoda used Force of arms to back up his negotiations. He does so through the deal he negotiated with Ventriss and Katuuunko.

I disagree. Yoda definitely negotiated that treaty, quite successfully I might add. Were the negotiations rather "unorthodox"? Absolutely, but they were negotiations, but with Katuunko and with Ventriss.

Once again, the rules as written don't allow a character to switch careers, hence Yoda can only have one career, regardless of what specializations he might take. That is the key point. And with Yoda, Pretty much all of the Consular Specs (except for Healer or Niman Disciple) fit Yoda perfectly, with one or two from Seeker and Mystic also being appropriate as out of career specs. Looking at the descriptions of the new specs from DoH, I'd say Yoda best fits this order of specs: Arbiter, Ateru Sriker, Teacher, Sage, Seer, Ascetic, Hermit.

So, when Anakin is hacking people with his lightsaber as part of "aggressive negotiations" he's also negotiating? You're being extraordinarily pedantic.

And your response to me doesn't really address my point. Yes, Consular is probably the best fit but it's not the only fit and it's not the only way to make a decent Yoda character. Consular has Sage and Teacher which are really good fits. And Niman Disciple if you just want to go the "good with a lightsaber" route instead of insisting on Ataru. Mystic has Seer and Advisor. Seeker has Ataru Striker and Hermit but has an initial skill selection that's not as good as Mystic or Consular. Consular is likely to have a good Yoda Signature Ability. Mystic likely will too. And if you knew you had a character you'd be able to sink 2000+XP into then you could also get away with Guardian (or Warrior or whatever). At the end of that journey you'd still be able to stay true to the character and there are rational reasons to emphasize some aspects over others or even the order in which you want to emphasize them (which Signature Ability being one).

Again, no one disagrees that Consular is a great fit, probably the best fit, for Yoda. The issue is that it's not the only fit. You keep ignoring this. You keep repeating "But it's the BEST!" Yeah, ok, but that's not what we're arguing. You seem to sorta concede this point when you said that Mystic is somehow a splinter off of Consular...but saying you're still right and a Mystic character is really just a Consular character.

You could create a 2000-XP Consular Yoda character and someone else could create a Mystic Yoda character and another person could create a 2000XP Guardian Yoda character and they each could do the concept justice. Are you really insisting this isn't possible?

5 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

I think he means moved into Seeker/Mystic/Consular specializations. Also, you still haven't answered -

I thought it was pretty obvious that was what I was saying. But thanks for clarifying.

1 hour ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I mostly agree but with your 4th point...come on man!

I remember before the F&D beta came out there was a long history of speculation about what F&D would bring as far as Jedi. My memory of it was that most thought that either there would be a Jedi Career or maybe a specialization each for something like Consular, Guardian, Sentinel. I don't think anyone (or at least very few) imagined there'd be full "Jedi" Careers like Consular, Guardian, Sentinel much less a Specializatin for each major Lightsaber form. It really screams Jedi.

I do agree that each Career supports a number of non-Jedi options (some Specializations explicitly so) but I think they were generally designed to make Jedi characters. And I think the Careers give a big nod to this. Yes, fluff wise they fit into an era where the Jedi are all but extinct but the fluff goes out of it's way to say that a certain Career and/or Specialization is "descended" from a Jedi way of doing/seeing things. So, yes, the fluff says Consular is not really the Jedi Consular of yore (because there are essentially none at that point in the timeline) but it's called out in several Careers/Specs that you're following in the Jedi footsteps. I think there's a big wink wink there.

Ah I see what I did there. Sorry, I wasn't trying to say you can't make Jedi from the specializations in FaD. I meant that all the careers and specializations are good for building all sorts of Force users, and that a Consular need not be an actual Jedi, just like a Warrior can be a Jedi.

5 minutes ago, awayputurwpn said:

Ah I see what I did there. Sorry, I wasn't trying to say you can't make Jedi from the specializations in FaD. I meant that all the careers and specializations are good for building all sorts of Force users, and that a Consular need not be an actual Jedi, just like a Warrior can be a Jedi.

I think we can all agree that Mace Windu is a warrior and we all want Vaapad as another warrior lightsaber spec.

4 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

I think we can all agree that Mace Windu is a warrior and we all want Vaapad as another warrior lightsaber spec.

To be honest, I was never a fan of Juyo/Vapaad. Maybe I just don't like the 'Forbidden technique' cliche. I also think Ataru is already pretty crazy aggressive, so it's hard for me to see how a lightsaber form can be inherently "Sithy" if Ataru is fine to learn.

Except it wasn't an assassination. he went there to arrest Palpatine, and Palpatine resisted with lethal force.

Another popcorn thread, I see. A regular occurrence these have become.

2 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

Except it wasn't an assassination. he went there to arrest Palpatine, and Palpatine resisted with lethal force.

He then subdued Palpatine and reinforcements in the form of Anakin arrived. The lawful thing to do here would have been to take Palpatine for trial, which Anakin was fully on board with. Mace disagreed that the Senate and the Courts would work, and tried to kill Palpatine right then and there, instead of arresting him.

Hence, it was an assassination attempt.

Where in the rules does it say being 900 years old gives you special consideration for career choice? The game does not assume PCs to exclusively operate on a human lifespan. There are PC species that can be centuries old when they start.

Just now, Benjan Meruna said:

He then subdued Palpatine and reinforcements in the form of Anakin arrived. The lawful thing to do here would have been to take Palpatine for trial, which Anakin was fully on board with. Mace disagreed that the Senate and the Courts would work, and tried to kill Palpatine right then and there, instead of arresting him.

Hence, it was an assassination attempt.

Can you cite this legal code which made Windu's actions illegal?

1 minute ago, Stan Fresh said:

Can you cite this legal code which made Windu's actions illegal?

Can you cite the legal code that make the Sith religion illegal?