4 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:

Characterizing Windu's group as assassins. Saying Yoda initiated that conflict. That Yoda is primarily a stabby warrior, not a mentor/sage. For example.

I would be remiss if I didn't point out Dark Disciple, a canonical novel in which the Jedi Council sends Jedi Master Quinlan Vos to recruit Assaj Ventress to help him assasinate Count Dooku. That's the entire council that signed off on that assasination attempt including Windu, Yoda, and Obi Wan Kenobi. Yoda and Kenobi voiced some reservations, but Windu was pretty enthusiastic about the whole idea.

What career is Yoda? Any you want him to be. I think Obi-wan is the iconic Jedi but Master Yoda is the iconic legendary Jedi.

He's a consummate warrior so Guardian would fit. But according to EU "lore" I believe he was also a practitioner of Ataru so maybe Seeker (which also has the Hermit spec which might fit him later in life). Consular is certainly a fit. But Mystic + Seer is also an equally good fit.

The grandmaster of the Jedi Order who is 900 years old isn't so easy to put in any one single box.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I agree with awayputurpwn - Windu and company were there to arrest Sidious, but prepared to kill him if needed.

The main thing I'd ask is: on what grounds?

I always took the Council's reaction to Anakin's news as part and parcel of how Palpatine had used the Dark Side to blind the Jedi. It was a reaction, carried intent of violence (they ignited their lightsabers before Palpatine even took his own out), and most importantly, had no legal grounds. You and I know that Palpatine did illegal, shady things. The Council, however, only suspected this because "he's a Sith and that's what they do." They had to have been counting on him to resist violently, because without that, what would they have charged him with?

Just now, Jedi Ronin said:

What career is Yoda? Any you want him to be. I think Obi-wan is the iconic Jedi but Master Yoda is the iconic legendary Jedi.

He's a consummate warrior so Guardian would fit. But according to EU "lore" I believe he was also a practitioner of Ataru so maybe Seeker (which also has the Hermit spec which might fit him later in life). Consular is certainly a fit. But Mystic + Seer is also an equally good fit.

The grandmaster of the Jedi Order who is 900 years old isn't so easy to put in any one single box.

This is really the viewpoint most people in t his thread had originally, but then Tramp went on about how there was no way Yoda could have been a Guardian and used Fated Duel, and it was off to the races.

1 minute ago, Benjan Meruna said:

The main thing I'd ask is: on what grounds?

I always took the Council's reaction to Anakin's news as part and parcel of how Palpatine had used the Dark Side to blind the Jedi. It was a reaction, carried intent of violence (they ignited their lightsabers before Palpatine even took his own out), and most importantly, had no legal grounds. You and I know that Palpatine did illegal, shady things. The Council, however, only suspected this because "he's a Sith and that's what they do." They had to have been counting on him to resist violently, because without that, what would they have charged him with?

I think things are murky and reasonable people can come to very different conclusions. It's not clear what legal authority the Jedi had. Maybe they did have some legal authority to arrest Sidious. And knowing someone you're going to arrest is dangerous could warrant displaying your weapons.

I'd agree that this was a desperate move - one Yoda had reservations about - and one that Sidious pushed them in to. Sidious had control of the government bureaucracy and one can expect the courts as well so the typical legal process was unlikely to depose Sidious. Maybe Windu's plan was to hope that process would work. Maybe Windu was trying to push Sidious into fighting with the threat of arrest (which is what happened) and he have an easier time explaining that to the Senate. Maybe Sidious didn't care either way - he'd become Emperor and still declare the Jedi as traitors for arresting him and he'd have as much satisfaction seeing Windu and the gang rot in jail or publicly executed as much as killing them himself.

Maybe being a Sith is illegal? They had started plenty of wars. I have no idea how such a thing would be proven in court though. Dooku was a Sith so maybe there was some legal grounds to accuse Sidious of treason.

I agree that the Jedi probably let their fear get the better of them. But I think this is part of the brilliance of Sidious. He put them in a situation where they had to decide quickly. If they did nothing he'd likely destroy them anyway. If they acted - even if out of justifiable fear - he'd also win.

Just now, Jedi Ronin said:

I think things are murky and reasonable people can come to very different conclusions. It's not clear what legal authority the Jedi had. Maybe they did have some legal authority to arrest Sidious. And knowing someone you're going to arrest is dangerous could warrant displaying your weapons.

I'd agree that this was a desperate move - one Yoda had reservations about - and one that Sidious pushed them in to. Sidious had control of the government bureaucracy and one can expect the courts as well so the typical legal process was unlikely to depose Sidious. Maybe Windu's plan was to hope that process would work. Maybe Windu was trying to push Sidious into fighting with the threat of arrest (which is what happened) and he have an easier time explaining that to the Senate. Maybe Sidious didn't care either way - he'd become Emperor and still declare the Jedi as traitors for arresting him and he'd have as much satisfaction seeing Windu and the gang rot in jail or publicly executed as much as killing them himself.

Maybe being a Sith is illegal? They had started plenty of wars. I have no idea how such a thing would be proven in court though. Dooku was a Sith so maybe there was some legal grounds to accuse Sidious of treason.

I agree that the Jedi probably let their fear get the better of them. But I think this is part of the brilliance of Sidious. He put them in a situation where they had to decide quickly. If they did nothing he'd likely destroy them anyway. If they acted - even if out of justifiable fear - he'd also win.

In the novelization (which I don't think is canon, so grain of salt) Windu states that Palps is under arrest for being a Sith, and Palpatine replies along the lines of "We had freedom of religion in our Constitution the last I checked." The movie never bother to state what they're arresting Palpatine for, which is what leads me personally to believe that they went there to pick a fight, not lead him off in binders. Obviously if they had a legal reason then it changes matters, but I feel like if there had been it would have at least been mentioned in passing.'

I definitely agree that this was brilliant planning on Palp's part. I think that if their initial reaction had been "Get the Jedi off the front lines and hold a press conference, lock down and evacuate the Temple" they would have still been declared traitors and Order 66 given but managed to preserve a lot more of the Order, both in terms of sheer members and public image (no scars from Jedi assassination attempt).

16 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

The main thing I'd ask is: on what grounds?

I always took the Council's reaction to Anakin's news as part and parcel of how Palpatine had used the Dark Side to blind the Jedi. It was a reaction, carried intent of violence (they ignited their lightsabers before Palpatine even took his own out), and most importantly, had no legal grounds. You and I know that Palpatine did illegal, shady things. The Council, however, only suspected this because "he's a Sith and that's what they do." They had to have been counting on him to resist violently, because without that, what would they have charged him with?

This is really the viewpoint most people in t his thread had originally, but then Tramp went on about how there was no way Yoda could have been a Guardian and used Fated Duel, and it was off to the races.

That is because Yoda is not a Guardian. Period. He never has been, nor do the movies even remotely suggest he is. Yoda was what the Consular career is based upon. Thus that is the only Career he would be. Yoda is a Consular. A Sage, a giver of wisdom, a Teacher, first and foremost.

As for the Jedi having no legal grounds? Yes, they did. Palpatine was usurping legal authority. He plunged the Republic into a war that he engineered solely to allow him to take power and destroy the Jedi. And, as for the Republic having "freedom of religion". Even that has certain limitations, and the Sith was not just a religion. They were a known (for lack of a better term) terrorist organization with a specific goal; that being the conquest of the galaxy and extermination of the Jedi, so yes, being Sith most certainly could be illegal.

4 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

In the novelization (which I don't think is canon, so grain of salt) Windu states that Palps is under arrest for being a Sith, and Palpatine replies along the lines of "We had freedom of religion in our Constitution the last I checked." The movie never bother to state what they're arresting Palpatine for, which is what leads me personally to believe that they went there to pick a fight, not lead him off in binders. Obviously if they had a legal reason then it changes matters, but I feel like if there had been it would have at least been mentioned in passing.'

I definitely agree that this was brilliant planning on Palp's part. I think that if their initial reaction had been "Get the Jedi off the front lines and hold a press conference, lock down and evacuate the Temple" they would have still been declared traitors and Order 66 given but managed to preserve a lot more of the Order, both in terms of sheer members and public image (no scars from Jedi assassination attempt).

Yeah, I agree. Though I can also see it from Windu's perspective. Things might turn out better for the Order if they failed but they had the chance to stop the Empire in it's tracks (theoretically) and end the Sith threat in one fell swoop. It was a situation with a lot of downside and a lot of upside. So, it he made the selfless choice - from a certain point of view =)

25 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually, if you watch the movies, Yoda tends to focus more on understanding the Force, teaching, and diplomacy. That is what he prefers doing. That is his motivation, not fighting. His desires are peace and understanding the Force. Protecting others is just a part of the Job, and and even then, it's not even his primary job. If you really pay attention to pretty much every scene Yoda is in, in every movie he is in, he is always spouting some bit of wisdom, some sage advice or hidden truth, even when facing off against enemies in the middle of combat. That is because that is where his heart is; not in combat, but in wisdom. When he is leading those troops on Toydaria, even in the midst of combat, he uses that combat to teach the clones about the nature of life and their place in the Force. That is where his focus is, not combat. His focus and motivation is in understanding the mysteries of the Force.

When 900 years you old, a lot of fortune cookies eat you have.

Anyway, you keep stating your opinion, instead of making an argument to support your opinion, it really does not help your case. You have not addressed that Yoda constantly acts against the will of the force. He denies the chosen one, he fights the clone wars against better wisdom, he tries to assassinate Palpatine. No Wisdom in any of this, just a master who puts preservation first. His emotional weaknesses are arrogance and fear, he is cautious and proud of the order he formed with 800 years of his teaching, proud of the order he formed for so many centuries, proud of the order in which he trained almost all younglings in the ways of the lightsaber and the ways of the force. Again, all spelled out literally in canon. Posted as well in this tread, you are free to keep ignoring it and prefer OT Yoda, the bitter, old war-veteran. ;-)

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That is because Yoda is not a Guardian. Period.

And this is why Tramp is always at the center of these toxic derailings. He makes absolutionist statements like this one, gets people posting showing how it could be that but it could also be different (or how he's outright wrong, in some cases) and then goes on huge rants about how he's right and literally everyone who doesn't agree with every single point he makes is wrong. This happens until people finally begin to just laugh at the sheer ridiculousness of it all, then Stan Fresh comes in and calls everyone meanieheads. It's happened to at least three different threads now.

3 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Yeah, I agree. Though I can also see it from Windu's perspective. Things might turn out better for the Order if they failed but they had the chance to stop the Empire in it's tracks (theoretically) and end the Sith threat in one fell swoop. It was a situation with a lot of downside and a lot of upside. So, it he made the selfless choice - from a certain point of view =)

By the way, Tramp? Stan? THIS is how you can have a polite discussion with someone you happen to disagree with. Take notes.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for the Jedi having no legal grounds? Yes, they did. Palpatine was usurping legal authority. He plunged the Republic into a war that he engineered solely to allow him to take power and destroy the Jedi. And, as for the Republic having "freedom of religion". Even that has certain limitations, and the Sith was not just a religion. They were a known (for lack of a better term) terrorist organization with a specific goal; that being the conquest of the galaxy and extermination of the Jedi, so yes, being Sith most certainly could be illegal.

That is flatout wrong. Those acquisitions are a lie! The sith have been calumniated by the jedi for centuries and called them on sith wherever they found them. NO MORE I SAY! ;-)

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Yeah, I agree. Though I can also see it from Windu's perspective. Things might turn out better for the Order if they failed but they had the chance to stop the Empire in it's tracks (theoretically) and end the Sith threat in one fell swoop. It was a situation with a lot of downside and a lot of upside. So, it he made the selfless choice - from a certain point of view =)

Windu made the selfless choice to end the Sith threat and save the galaxy from its oppression. I'd imagine he would have accepted any legal consequences of said action, although I'd imagine he and the Jedi would have made a pretty good case for his actions in front of the senate. Once Palpatine outed himself and killed two Jedi Masters, Windu had a legal kill, but had Palpatine allowed himself to be arrested, did the Jedi have enough evidence to actually win in court? That really depends on if they had additional evidence to corroborate Anakins testimony, and how much weight a Jedi Masters word carries in their court system. We'd need to know a lot more about how civil rights and the courts of the Republic work before knowing how solid a case the Jedi would have had against Chancellor Palpatine. Perhaps, being a Sith isn't illegal, but treason and murder surely are. It seems unlikely that they had enough evidence for those charges at the time of the arrest attempt however.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

As for the Jedi having no legal grounds? Yes, they did. Palpatine was usurping legal authority. He plunged the Republic into a war that he engineered solely to allow him to take power and destroy the Jedi.

Which is why I said "the viewers knows this, and the Jedi suspect this". But you can't just arrest someone for the hell of it, you need evidence that a crime was committed. There is also probably a full legal procedure for arresting a Chancellor, and I doubt it solely involves Jedi.

The Sith being an outlawed religion is speculation. Canon says nothing either way, the RotS novelization says it wasn't. Remember that the Sith (as last seen by the Republic) were an external force trying to conquer. Darth Bane's more subtle Order has operated mostly outside the knowledge of the Jedi, let alone the Republic at large. If there ARE Anti-Sith laws, it's likely that they haven't been enforced in over a millenia, and would cause quite an uproar if suddenly used against a rather popular public figure.

Just now, ghatt said:

Windu made the selfless choice to end the Sith threat and save the galaxy from its oppression. I'd imagine he would have accepted any legal consequences of said action, although I'd imagine he and the Jedi would have made a pretty good case for his actions in front of the senate. Once Palpatine outed himself and killed two Jedi Masters, Windu had a legal kill, but had Palpatine allowed himself to be arrested, did the Jedi have enough evidence to actually win in court? That really depends on if they had additional evidence to corroborate Anakins testimony, and how much weight a Jedi Masters word carries in their court system. We'd need to know a lot more about how civil rights and the courts of the Republic work before knowing how solid a case the Jedi would have had against Chancellor Palpatine. Perhaps, being a Sith isn't illegal, but treason and murder surely are. It seems unlikely that they had enough evidence for those charges at the time of the arrest attempt however.

It would have been one hell of a tricky court case, I think. But with Palpatine (and Dooku) dead, I'm not sure how long his power-structure would last. I imagine all the crooked politicians in his pocket would be more interested in saving their skins. That could mean harsh prosecution of the Jedi as a distraction, but it could also mean testifying in exchange for a nice little plea bargain.

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

When 900 years you old, a lot of fortune cookies eat you have.

Anyway, you keep stating your opinion, instead of making an argument to support your opinion, it really does not help your case. You have not addressed that Yoda constantly acts against the will of the force. He denies the chosen one, he fights the clone wars against better wisdom, he tries to assassinate Palpatine. No Wisdom in any of this, just a master who puts preservation first. His emotional weaknesses are arrogance and fear, he is cautious and proud of the order he formed with 800 years of his teaching, proud of the order he formed for so many centuries, proud of the order in which he trained almost all younglings in the ways of the lightsaber and the ways of the force. Again, all spelled out literally in canon. Posted as well in this tread, you are free to keep ignoring it and prefer OT Yoda, the bitter, old war-veteran. ;-)

First, Yoda doesn't deny the Will of the Force. The Force was clouded by Palpatine and the Dark Side nexus beneath the Temple. This made foreseeing the dangers ahead almost impossible. This was also established in the movies numerous times. And Anakin's status as the Chosen One was disputed by several of the Council, particularly Mace Windu. What Yoda was concerned about was Anakin's emotional stability. He was a loose cannon with several emotional problems. He foresaw the dangers in Anakin's training; Dangers, I might add, which turned out to be well founded. He fought the Clone Wars because he had to, not because he wanted to. Circumstances (engineered by Palpatine) forced him into it. And, even when the Clone Wars had begun, what was Yoda's response when Obi Wan referred to the battle of Geonosis? "Victory?" Master Obi Wan, Not Victory. The veil of the Dark Side has fallen. Begun the Clone War has." He was saddened by the the events that had just taken place. It was certainly not what he wanted, nor looked forward to.

2 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Which is why I said "the viewers knows this, and the Jedi suspect this". But you can't just arrest someone for the hell of it, you need evidence that a crime was committed. There is also probably a full legal procedure for arresting a Chancellor, and I doubt it solely involves Jedi.

The Sith being an outlawed religion is speculation. Canon says nothing either way, the RotS novelization says it wasn't. Remember that the Sith (as last seen by the Republic) were an external force trying to conquer. Darth Bane's more subtle Order has operated mostly outside the knowledge of the Jedi, let alone the Republic at large. If there ARE Anti-Sith laws, it's likely that they haven't been enforced in over a millenia, and would cause quite an uproar if suddenly used against a rather popular public figure.

The Sith are a known enemy of the Republic. Whether they were believed to have been extinct or not is moot. Any resurgence of the Sith Order is a dire threat to the Republic. This was known not only the the Jedi, but to the Republic Senate.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That is because Yoda is not a Guardian. Period. He never has been, nor do the movies even remotely suggest he is. Yoda was what the Consular career is based upon. Thus that is the only Career he would be. Yoda is a Consular. A Sage, a giver of wisdom, a Teacher, first and foremost.

As for the Jedi having no legal grounds? Yes, they did. Palpatine was usurping legal authority. He plunged the Republic into a war that he engineered solely to allow him to take power and destroy the Jedi. And, as for the Republic having "freedom of religion". Even that has certain limitations, and the Sith was not just a religion. They were a known (for lack of a better term) terrorist organization with a specific goal; that being the conquest of the galaxy and extermination of the Jedi, so yes, being Sith most certainly could be illegal.

I agree that being a Sith could have been illegal (depends if you take the novelization's depiction as "canon") as they had a long history of war crimes etc. and the Seperatists were lead by a Sith. But the movies don't really shed much light on this and we're left to speculate.

You keep asserting that Yoda cannot possibly be a Guardian and that the Consular career is based on him. You never back these up. Certainly Yoda could be a Consular but I don't know the minds of the devs and if they had Yoda in mind when they created the Consular. Mystic + Seer seem like they fit just as well if not better - in the movies we have many more examples of Yoda being a "mystic" than we do of his Consular prowess.

And if you want to stick to the movies (or the movies and the clone wars) you could easily find evidence to build him as a Guardian, Consular, Seer or even a Seeker:

- Yoda is spoken of and demonstrates a high level of mastery of the lightsaber: Consular Niman Disciple can be really good with a lightsaber, but, Guardian and Seeker are too. Seeker has the benefit of the Ataru Striker, fitting in with the legends lore.

- Yoda has a strong connection to the force and is wise: This could be Consular with Sage. But could very easily be Mystic + Seer (which is a better fit in my opinion).

- Yoda is a great teacher: Again, Consular could be a good fit but so could a number of other Careers. Consular does have the Teacher spec so that's a possibility for Yoda.

Consular's are a very balanced Career that do a good job of covering "standard Jedi". And Yoda has mastered all those areas so you have a good argument that he can be created as a Consular but it's not the only viable option. Also, since this system allows for - even encourages - buying into non-Career specializations the determination of a character's Career is not all that important as it only determines starting Career skills and what Signature Abilities you have access to. A Signature Ability can be a big part of a character but we don't know much about the Consular's yet (except their names Much To Learn and Unmatched Negotiation). Much To Learn sounds like it could be very iconic to Yoda as the name is taken from a Yoda quote. Even with this name and if the Signature Ability is iconic to Yoda, the most that could be said is that Consular is the best overall fit. Other's can certainly build a very viable Yoda PC using other Careers.

If you're creating a 2000+XP Yoda PC their Career really fades into the background unless the Consular Signature Abilities are essential for the Yoda character or are very iconic to him and we don't know that yet.

And if you're creating Yoda as an NPC then there is no concept of Career.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

The Sith are a known enemy of the Republic. Whether they were believed to have been extinct or not is moot. Any resurgence of the Sith Order is a dire threat to the Republic. This was known not only the the Jedi, but to the Republic Senate.

By that logic, there is (was? I'm not googling to see if they folded after the sixties) no such thing as the American Nazi Party.

Let's also not forget that with Force Powers being separated entirely from Careers that you could have a Guardian who has mastered every Force Power to the level of Yoda.

52 minutes ago, ghatt said:

I would be remiss if I didn't point out Dark Disciple, a canonical novel in which the Jedi Council sends Jedi Master Quinlan Vos to recruit Assaj Ventress to help him assasinate Count Dooku. That's the entire council that signed off on that assasination attempt including Windu, Yoda, and Obi Wan Kenobi. Yoda and Kenobi voiced some reservations, but Windu was pretty enthusiastic about the whole idea.

What about it? He's the public head of the other side in a war. Killing him with a bomb dropped on him or with a sword makes no difference.

Just now, Stan Fresh said:

What about it? He's the public head of the other side in a war. Killing him with a bomb dropped on him or with a sword makes no difference.

No one's saying it was right or wrong, just that the Jedi were never opposed to assassination, particularly Windu.

Well, here's a little bit from Wookieepidia (yes, I know it's not a "primary source"): Jedi Consular

Note the list of Consulars:

Notable individuals

Here is another bit from the Behind the scenes section:

Quote

Behind the scenes:

The use of the term Jedi Consular was originally limited to the Star Wars Roleplaying Game. It was later used in The New Essential Chronology and the Knights of the Old Republic comics. However, their roles in these depictions were changed slightly. The Jedi Consular was never displayed to be more proficient in the use of the Force, nor did they use the Force as a direct weapon in any manner not also practiced by other Jedi. The Jedi Consular was instead shown to be a Jedi skilled in methods of diplomacy and instruction.

Just as some Jedi Guardians have the Force potency of Consulars, many Consulars were formidable warriors. Nomi Sunrider, Vima Sunrider, Yoda, Shaak Ti, and Kit Fisto were also notable as being among the best lightsaber duelists of their time.

Jedi Consulars who have fallen to the dark side still rarely fight in physical combat. Dark Jedi Consulars (or Sith Lords as a prestige class in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords) use the Force to crush their enemies as opposed to using lightsabers.

The Jedi Consular is a playable class in the Star Wars: The Old Republic MMORPG video game. It is one of the two Force-using classes aligned with the Galactic Republic along with the Jedi Knight. This class focuses on the use of either the double-bladed lightsaber and stealth, or healing and ranged Force powers such as Telekinetics. The advanced classes for the Jedi Consular are the Jedi Sage and the Jedi Shadow. The Imperial alternate for the Jedi Consular is the Sith Inquisitor.

Note the point made about many Consulars also being formidible fighters; including Yoda. Yoda is explicitly listed as a Consular.

9 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

What about it? He's the public head of the other side in a war. Killing him with a bomb dropped on him or with a sword makes no difference.

Oh, goodness...

Legit or not, that makes no difference. It simply establishes that the Jedi, Windu in particular, had no problem rationalizing assassination, a term they used while deliberating about it in the novel. They came to the conclusion that the ends justified the means. They were willing to get into bed with a known Sith assassin to do so. The Jedi don't always have the moral high ground in every argument.

Read the book. It's a good read. Not the most satisfying ending, and certainly plenty of uncomfortable moments but it's very relevant to this conversation.

Cool, but that says nothing to the FFG system. Jedi Shadows were made to be Consulars in SWTOR, but in every other source they were a subset of Jedi Sentinels - which was itself made to be a subset of Jedi Knight... which also had Jedi Guardian.

Different Legends media can interpret things differently, and sometimes it doesn't make a lot of sense, because a lot of Legends doesn't make any sense.

Just now, StarkJunior said:

Cool, but that says nothing to the FFG system. Jedi Shadows were made to be Consulars in SWTOR, but in every other source they were a subset of Jedi Sentinels - which was itself made to be a subset of Jedi Knight... which also had Jedi Guardian.

Different Legends media can interpret things differently.

Yoda has always been established as a Consular. And, based upon his general attitudes and functions within the Order, as well as his temperment and preferences, he is most certainly a Consular even in FFG terms. Now, as for FFG and the various Jedi paths. It should b noted that originally, there were really only three Jedi paths recognized: Jedi Consulars, Jedi Guardians, and Jedi Sentinels. FFG seems to have split each of them in two: Consulars were split into Consular and Mystic, Guardian into Guardian and Warrior, and Sentinel into Sentinel and Seeker. This seems to have been done to give F&D six career paths, just as EotE and AoR have.

The reason Sith are illegal is mainly because their religion promotes conquest and chaos. They see anyone who can't use the force as a tool to be manipulated and in their prime they were a powerful empire that was wiped out by the republic 1000 years ago. Further more they actually have influence in the force which is anknowledged to be a real thing. I think the main issue is that the Jedi never shared these sith accusations to anyone but themselves; while we can argue about "Violence is/isn't the way to solve things" I think the biggest issue was the Jedi isolated themselves politically; they never shared anything about themselves with the republic and never made connections. They were effectively justice warriors that intervened in political matters to ensure they went smoothly and that was about as far as it went. As such when Palpatine did suddenly turn the army on the Jedi there was no one to back their corner; pretty much most of the Jedi were bumped off in locations far from the public eye where no one would care and even if Mace Windu didn't try and arrest him then he would find some other way of implicating them, his "betrayal by the Jedi" was manufactured solely to turn Anaikin. Thus I don't believe that the problem with the Jedi is that they did or didn't believe in violence; just they never fully engaged or shared any findings with the republic as a whole and as of consequence the republic didn't bait an eyelid when they were ushered off stage left. That was their big weakness when they decided to ignore the republic despite fighting the war for them.


Personally I don't believe in the labelling of Consular and Guardian's, I believe firmly that the role of a fighter and a teacher is interchangeable to most Jedi. Some Jedi hone their lives as combants, others never take any active interest aside from research. Most Jedi were individuals that differed in individual preference and lifestyle, just Yoda taught most of the time due to his advanced age, his body was barely capable of walking without the assistance of the force but I imagine he was as active as any guardian in his prime days. Just by the clone wars he was pretty much in his twilight days and by Empire Strikes Back/Return it took most of his mastery of the force just to exist. I believe he is a consular as far as that definition goes, but as with all labels that more refers to their purpose in that point in their lives as apposed to a hard label.