4 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

I am not talking about leading his troops, I was not even thinking about his troops. I was thinking about protecting the jedi and the republic. Ordering the jedi to fight to protect and serve the republic in a war the jedi did not even needed to be involved. They could have stayed out of the issue of separation from the republic. They could have taken Mandalore's stance with ease. He could have let the clones fight this war on their own.

Instead, out of fear of losing friends and out of duty to protect the republic and its citizen he choosed to go to war. He made basically this decision for the jedi. And it was a turning point in his career when he realized that was the wrong decision and that this decision destroyed everything he worked for the last 900 years.

Marks btw ironically the change in Yoda to make him into the person you want him to be. It just a very recent change ;-)

Protecting the galaxy was the duty of all Jedi, not just Guardians. That's what you seem to be forgetting. Yoda had a duty to the Republic. All Jedi had this duty. Does that make all Jedi Guardians? No. Not by Career.

15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

But he isn't a Guardian. What makes you think he would be?

Oh now he's not a Guardian? I thought you said it was up for debate?

Please answer the question above, and then please answer this:

You have claimed that the Consular career was the spiritual successor to the Jedi Consular class. But now you're saying that the Consular career was based directly on Yoda.

So which is it? Is it a spiritual successor to a previous game's class, or is it based directly on Yoda?

If it is based upon Yoda, as you are now claiming, please provide something other than your increasingly rampant speculation.

BTW I think you got your counting wrong:

And just for a bonus a duel without sabers:

2 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Protecting the galaxy was the duty of all Jedi, not just Guardians. That's what you seem to be forgetting. Yoda had a duty to the Republic. All Jedi had this duty. Does that make all Jedi Guardians? No. Not by Career.

Yeah and Yoda had chosen weapons instead of diplomacy to achieve this goal. He was commanding the jedi armies, he was the warleader of the jedi armies even.

18 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

We see Yoda in two Lightsaber duels. That does not make him a Guardian. Secondly, As I pointed out earlier, and as established in the various F&D career books, each of the Careers in F&D is directly descended from the Jedi The Consular has its origins from the Jedi Consulars. The Guardian has its origins from the Jedi Guardians. The Seekers, from the Jedi Seekers of the Jedi Explorer Corps, the Sentinels from the Jedi Sentinels, etc. Each and every one of them have their origins with the Jedi. The player characters in the time of the Rebellion era are taking careers which directly descend from these groups, whether literally, by being taught by a survivor of Oder 66, or in spirit through natural inclination. Therefore, these Careers do include the Jedi sects of old, and if you run a game in that era, these careers absolutely do represent these different types of Jedi.

I have to disagree. Even in canon we do see different Jedi with specific "skill sets" and mindsets; Jedi who are geared towards one path more than another. Yoda is definitely more of a sage type, a wise, seeker and dispenser of wisdom and knowledge. Mace Windu, by contrast, is a warrior at heart.

1. We see him in lightsaber duels in half of his appearances in the film's. As Seapoc pointed out, The Clone Wars increases this number substantially. The other half of his appearances in the film's happen within a year of him dying of old age. Yoda can absolutely be a Guardian.

2."Descended from" is not "the same as." You are descended from your father and likely share some similarities, yet you are a different person. Ditto the Jedi Consular and FFG Consular.

2 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Okay, but how does that make the Jedi Guardian, Jedi Consular, and Jedi Sentinel terms canon? We never hear anyone in canon referred to as such, and there's no mention of them in canon sources. No one is like "I am a Jedi Guardian, with the Peacekeeper specialty!" or "I am a Jedi Sentinel with the Watchman specialty!"

They were used in the old Canon (KotOR, for example, has the Jedi Masters specifically name the Guardian, Consular, and Sentinel as different paths a Jedi can take) and they are used in the career books for F&D as specific types of Jedi. Quite literally, they did have different recognized "disciplines" within the Jedi order. Endless Vigil, in particular, mentions the origins of the Jedi Sentinel discipline. And we do have characters establishing themselves as "watchmen"of different sectors, as well. So yes, the Jedi did have different specialties within the Order.

...Those are not canon sources.

12 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

1. We see him in lightsaber duels in half of his appearances. The other half of his appearances happen within a year of him dying of old age. Yoda can absolutely be a Guardian.

2."Descended from" is not "the same as." You are descended from your father and likely share some similarities, yet you are a different person. Ditto the Jedi Consular and FFG Consular.

We see him in two lightsaber duels throughout all of the movies. That's it. That does not make him a combat focused character, nor does that mean he has the Fated Duel Signature Ability. Compare that to Obi Wan and Anakin, who each had several duels throughout the saga.Any Jedi can have a lightsaber duel. For most of the movies, he is acting as a source of wisdom; a mentor to the other Jedi, not as a fighter, not as a military leader. Heck, I don't even know where you guys get the idea that Yoda could even possibly be a Guardian. There is nothing in the movies to even remotely suggest it. Two duels does not a Guardian make.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

We see him in two lightsaber duels throughout all of the movies. That's it. That does not make him a combat focused character, nor does that mean he has the Fated Duel Signature Ability. Compare that to Obi Wan and Anakin, who each had several duels throughout the saga.Any Jedi can have a lightsaber duel. For most of the movies, he is acting as a source of wisdom; a mentor to the other Jedi, not as a fighter, not as a military leader.

Clone Wars is canon, and he uses his lightsaber a whole lot in that.

Just now, StarkJunior said:

Clone Wars is canon, and he uses his lightsaber a whole lot in that.

So does every other Jedi. That still does not make him a Guardian.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

So does every other Jedi. That still does not make him a Guardian.

Maybe not to you.

Also, Guardian/Consular/Sentinel are still not canon, and the sources you quoted above are not canon.

It's hilarious watching you all twist yourself into knots trying to disagree with everything Tramp says.

6 minutes ago, StarkJunior said:

Maybe not to you.

By that logic, all Jedi would have to have the Guardian career. And this is certainly not the case. Every career in this game has a lightsaber style specialization. In fact, at least two of them have more than one. Guardians have Armorer and Soresu Defender, and Sentinels have Sentry and Shien Disciple. All Jedi were proficient with the lightsaber, and would have to use it if circumstances required. It was not exclusive to the Guardian discipline. Therefore, saying Yoda used the lightsaber during the Clone Wars does not make him a Guardian. All of the Jedi used their lightsabers throughout that war.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

By that logic, all Jedi would have to have the Guardian career. And this is certainly not the case. Every career in this game has a lightsaber style specialization. In fact, at least two of them have more than one. Guardians have Armorer and Soresu Defender, and Sentinels have Sentry and Shien Disciple. All Jedi were proficient with the lightsaber. It was not exclusive to the Guardian discipline. Therefore, saying Yoda used the lightsaber during the Clone Wars does not make him a Guardian. All of the Jedi used their lightsabers throughout that war.

What? I'm saying that maybe he's not a Guardian to you - he can be to someone else.

18 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

We see him in two lightsaber duels throughout all of the movies. That's it. That does not make him a combat focused character, nor does that mean he has the Fated Duel Signature Ability. Compare that to Obi Wan and Anakin, who each had several duels throughout the saga.Any Jedi can have a lightsaber duel. For most of the movies, he is acting as a source of wisdom; a mentor to the other Jedi, not as a fighter, not as a military leader. Heck, I don't even know where you guys get the idea that Yoda could even possibly be a Guardian. There is nothing in the movies to even remotely suggest it. Two duels does not a Guardian make.

Wait, are you counting the movies Yoda doesn't appear in? That's hilarious! "Yoda didn't use a lightsaber in a New Hope! He's clearly a Consular!"

Let me explain this more simply for you. Yoda appears in four of the six movies (technically five, but his only purpose in Jedi is to Die and give Luke a sense of purpose. A Guardian would have died just the same). In two of those movies, he engaged in a lightsaber duel. In the rest, he's either within a year of dying of old age or doesn't have a distinct threat to fight yet.

15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

he is acting as a source of wisdom; a mentor to the other Jedi, as a fighter, as a military leader.

Fixed that for you, because that is what Yoda is portrait in most of canon. He is afterall the guy who coordinates the jedi armies in the war. What he is as well is a jedi who trust into his forsee power.

6 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Wait, are you counting the movies Yoda doesn't appear in? That's hilarious! "Yoda didn't use a lightsaber in a New Hope! He's clearly a Consular!"

Let me explain this more simply for you. Yoda appears in four of the six movies. In two of those movies, he engaged in a lightsaber duel. In the other two, he's within a year of dying of old age.

No, that is not what I am saying. I am saying that two relatively short duels in the course of the five movies (TPM, AotC, RotS, ESB, RotJ) he appeared in does not make Yoda a Guardian. Heck two short duels over the course of just AotC and RotS does not make him a Guardian. For the majority of all of his appearances, he acts as a sage and mentor, dispensing wisdom to the other Jedi. He spends very little of the movies in combat, and even in the Clone Wars series, he spends no more time leading troops in combat than any other Jedi. In fact, I'd say less than most. He has far more responsibilities to the Order as a whole where he needs to be at the Jedi Temple to spend that much time directly leading troops. So how does that make him a Guardian.

5 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Fixed that for you, because that is what Yoda is portrait in most of canon. He is afterall the guy who coordinates the jedi armies in the war. What he is as well is a jedi who trust into his forsee power.

Once again, though. All of the Jedi were responsible for leading troops. If you notice, however, he still acts as more of a Sage and diplomat than a Soldier, particularly if you watch that episode in its entirety.

41 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

It's hilarious watching you all twist yourself into knots trying to disagree with everything Tramp says.

How do you know he's not disagreeing with everything they say?

Ooh ooh also the "knots" thing for him, too.

23 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Once again, though. All of the Jedi were responsible for leading troops. If you notice, however, he still acts as more of a Sage and diplomat than a Soldier, particularly if you watch that episode in its entirety.

Actually, afaik not all jedi were generals, there were not enough clone armies for that nor did all jedi agree with the cause of action.

And you will notice as well that he was send there for a diplomatic mission, same has we have seen obi-wan many times. He is afterall the commander of the whole jedi army, not just one army like the other jedi. The council leads the jedi in this war and he leads the council, we seen him as well in clone wars many, many times ordering obi-wan or skywalker to hotspots to intervene military or act as diplomats for the republic.

Furthermore, guardians are not soldiers. You seem to have mixed something up here, they are protectors, peacekeepers, but they ain't soldiers. They fight when they must, they seek other solutions if they can. That is nothing specific to the consular, it is a core value to the lightside.

Tramp, the point is that Yoda tends to use his lightsaber against enemies. He never uses the Force directly against Dooku, he uses his lightsaber against the Clone troopers (both initially on Kashyyyk and later at the Jedi Temple), he uses it against Sidious...it's harder to name times he didn't use his lightsaber when it came to a fight.

1 minute ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Tramp, the point is that Yoda tends to use his lightsaber against enemies. He never uses the Force directly against Dooku, he uses his lightsaber against the Clone troopers (both initially on the Wookie homework and later at the Jedi temple), he uses it against Sidious...it's harder to name times he _didn't_ use his lightsaber when it came to a fight.

I am not really sure how this makes a point for or against consular or guardian.

2 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

I am not really sure how this makes a point for or against consular or guardian.

In general, the Guardians tend to default to their lightsabers when it comes time to fight. Consulars tend to use the Force a bit more in their fighting techniques. Moreover, Guardians are generally more aggressive with their lightsaber fighting, seeking not just to Reflect but to actively cut someone down. Consulars will generally Reflect, then use Move to push someone down.

You know, maybe I'm approaching this all wrong.

Perhaps @Tramp Graphics is thinking that Guardians = Warriors? And so that's why he thinks Yoda is ineligible for that career?

I'm not sure why else he would insist on shoehorning a character into an ill-fitting career simply because of its namesake...since we've already established specifically that the Consular class is not the same as the Jedi Consular class (as a d20 game concept) or the Jedi Consular role (as an in-universe concept).

I fear we have wandered waaaay off topic here, and we all know what fear leads to...

29 minutes ago, ghatt said:

I fear we have wandered waaaay off topic here, and we all know what fear leads to...

Yeah, it was back on page 8 with this post:

...and then came the argument about whether Yoda used Move or Bind. I suggested Fated Duel and pointed people to the topic where it could be discussed...which didn't really work the way I intended. Somehow we got into debating about whether Yoda could even use Fated Duel.

In any case, using the Force in an overly violent way, just like starting fights, and like killing when instead you could capture, will sometimes earn you some conflict. Restraint is the Jedi way But sometimes that conflict is worth it because of how badass, or perhaps how necessary, your actions were.

That is my two credits...to get us back on topic.

3 hours ago, awayputurwpn said:

How do you know he's not disagreeing with everything they say?

Ooh ooh also the "knots" thing for him, too.

Because he's not the one coming up with increasingly bizarre interpretations of the movies to support reflexively contrarian claims.