Inspired by getting my squadrons absolutely demolished in one match and nearly destroyed in another to the same build, I've thought of a way to effectively use Flechette Torpedoes. Put it on demolisher with Kallus.

The squad killer build I faced was Glad II: Demo, Kallus, ruthless strategists, engine techs, APTs. But not Flechettes. The above build absolutely destroys squadrons, as long as you can also keep around enough hull from your own squadrons. But it sucks when you go to attack a ship and roll 3 blank blacks. In other words, it sacrifices its ship killing RELIABILITY for squad killing RELIABILITY.

The build I propose is Glad II: Demo, Kallus, Ordnance Experts, Engine Techs, Flechette Torpedoes, with Screed as the Admiral. This only works against Aces, I know. But it also doesn't sacrifice its RELIABILITY against ships by keeping that Ordnance Experts in there.

Aces are the squadrons that present the greatest threat, specifically Jan and Dengar. They are hard to target, impossible to pin down, and pretty hard to kill even when you do get shots on target. With a squadron command, Demo can effectively lock down fringe fighter/bombers with interceptors or protect his future position from a non-intelled bomber attack, and then move in to lock down those Intel Aces with Flechettes (fishing for a black hit/crit added by Kallus). He can do it from a safe range, And if your opponent doesn't bring Aces? Even better for you.

Thoughts?

Demo AA has appeared time and again as an off-piste alternative.

i just don't think its ever managed to be so effective as to be a consistent alternative to APT Demo- there is one thing you always know, and that is the opponent has at least one ship.

Because the performance of AA ships is highly dependent on the size and composition of the opponent's fleet, the key thing you want is something that is: Point efficient without being useless vs low squadron or squadronless fleets.

You certainly have tried to address that with your build, so it comes down to two things:

1.) You've added another qualifier that the squadron needs to be Unique.

2.) Do you have enough threat left in your list to componsate for the loss of some key parts of Demo?

Great points. That qualifier is definitely limiting, but it is a very useful 6 points of upgrades that go a long ways towards shutting down a powerful rebel fleet archetype.

And at 90 points, it does sacrifice a good bit of utility, namely that you're giving up the officer and ordnance slot, but this Demo can still dish out some anti ship pain, especially with initiative. 3 rerollable blacks out the side is no joke. 4 if you'll go down to a Glad I, which isn't a bad idea to save points. Though a Jonus compliment to the Glad II would be the sort of "enough threat left" synergy that you're talking about.

One thing I've run into with my dual ISD I list, is it focuses a lot on killing squads with PDR and QLT and Kallus. When I don't run up against squads, I immediately regret not taking 2 ISD II with ECM. Sinking 90 points into a squad killer is literally putting 1/4 of your fleet in your opponents hands. If they don't have squads, you just wasted the a lot of potential with the strongest title in the game. I've thought about using Demo as an AA ship, but I'd always rather have a ship that can kill the carriers.

With that in mind, I think you should run this Demo AA with an ISD II as your other major threat with GT. This way you can run with no squads, since you can effectively throw 4 dice a turn at squads. Grab some Comms Net Goz, maybe an Arq with DTT (works very well with Screed IMO. Double die manipulation). You may as well grab Jonus so you can get that free Acc with Demo and the Arq. Try to go for 5 activations, or 6 if you feel that's better.

I think Demo AA can work. Just needs some time on the board so people understand the potential.

flechettes on raider1 with ordance expert is 51pts (iirc) and a solid way to just toggle all the things. im really enjoying it. if you want give it quad lasers for counter 1 and the impetuous(?) title. It is really nice to toggle your opponents squadrons while you send your fighters in, you essentially just time walked the squadron phase. it makes a big difference.

I am not a fan of it on demo due to glads only have blue dice. Sure kallas lets you target aces with it really well but I am not sure if i like it than the raider 1 for an AA ship. especially for the cost of AA demo I can get almost 2 AA raiders.

11 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

flechettes on raider1 with ordance expert is 51pts (iirc) and a solid way to just toggle all the things. im really enjoying it. if you want give it quad lasers for counter 1 and the impetuous(?) title. It is really nice to toggle your opponents squadrons while you send your fighters in, you essentially just time walked the squadron phase. it makes a big difference.

I am not a fan of it on demo due to glads only have blue dice. Sure kallas lets you target aces with it really well but I am not sure if i like it than the raider 1 for an AA ship. especially for the cost of AA demo I can get almost 2 AA raiders.

The trouble I've had with a Flechette/OE Raider is that BB will never toggle a squadron with Scatter on its own. Against everything else it's pretty nice.

5 minutes ago, Valca said:

The trouble I've had with a Flechette/OE Raider is that BB will never toggle a squadron with Scatter on its own. Against everything else it's pretty nice.

BB?

One thing to keep in mind is the Flechette Torpedo effect is used during the spend/modify dice step prior to defense tokens being spent. A scatter ace can still scatter away any remaining damage, but scatter does nothing to stop the hit+crit from being spent to toggle the activation slider.

Just now, Snipafist said:

BB?

One thing to keep in mind is the Flechette Torpedo effect is used during the spend/modify dice step prior to defense tokens being spent. A scatter ace can still scatter away any remaining damage, but scatter does nothing to stop the hit+crit from being spent to toggle the activation slider.

BB = Two Black dice.

That is a very good point. I was treating it like a crit effect, which wouldn't happen until after defense tokens, but the wording on the card doesn't support that. Thanks.

I guess for me thats not an issue. the things im worried about are bombers. very few bombers have scatter so if i dont toggle dengar howlrunner a-wing tie int dudes i think im ok as long as I am shutting down firesprays tie bombers all the b/x-wings.

Raider1 OE/Flech isn't really about killing squadrons as much as just controlling them. 2 raiders with flechettes should work well in a squadronless fleet and you can always kallus one to add a blue die if needed.

27 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

I guess for me thats not an issue. the things im worried about are bombers. very few bombers have scatter so if i dont toggle dengar howlrunner a-wing tie int dudes i think im ok as long as I am shutting down firesprays tie bombers all the b/x-wings.

Raider1 OE/Flech isn't really about killing squadrons as much as just controlling them. 2 raiders with flechettes should work well in a squadronless fleet and you can always kallus one to add a blue die if needed.

See I would disagree with the bolded parts in particular.

Re: Dengar

Using Flechettes to toggle Intel squadrons is very strong, particularly if those Intel squadrons are aces with defense tokens that would be bracing down (Jan or Dengar) or Scattering (Dengar) your dice anyways. By keeping the Intel squadron stuck in one place, the Intel bubble will not move that turn. That's extremely helpful for getting your fighters in there outside the bubble to just tie down bombers who won't be able to use Intel to escape. It not only stops them from bombing, it stops them from following whichever ship they were hoping to target, which means that even if the Intel squadron gets free next turn, the target may be long gone by then, having had up to two separate maneuvers to put distance between it and bombers.

Re: should work well in a squadronless fleet

In general I find Raiders work far better with a fighter escort to keep enemy squadrons honest and to keep them pinned down near the Raider. Otherwise there's always the option for enemy squadrons to just leave before the Raider gets to flak them.

sure. There are alot of variables like who went first and such. I would bid 9ish points in a list like this to make sure i go first, mostly cuz its 2x raider, demo, isd1, arq. meaning i can speed 3-4 to fighters then next turn flechette them if my opponent is using squadron commands to get the most from them.

there are a lot of variables. maybe 1 raider with fighter escort is solid too but i like having 5 activations and dont wanna drop the isd for vsd/gozanti.

Flechettes on glads doesn't work because they don't have black dice AA.

EDIT: Missed the part with Kallus, my bad! Still prefer a raider, personally.

50 minutes ago, BergerFett said:

sure. There are alot of variables like who went first and such. I would bid 9ish points in a list like this to make sure i go first, mostly cuz its 2x raider, demo, isd1, arq. meaning i can speed 3-4 to fighters then next turn flechette them if my opponent is using squadron commands to get the most from them.

there are a lot of variables. maybe 1 raider with fighter escort is solid too but i like having 5 activations and dont wanna drop the isd for vsd/gozanti.

As a raider depends on getting out of the action after doing its thing I would love for my opponent to bring 2. I'm still not convinced I'm worried about 1.

If you want to run RS on a AA Demo you could always run Vader for the rerolls against ships. Best of both worlds

7 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

One thing I've run into with my dual ISD I list... PDR

Well there's your problem.

12 minutes ago, Parkdaddy said:

Well there's your problem.

Well getting counter 1 and 2 with Kallus is great when I can reroll my crits. Increases my chance of doing damage to 75%. And it is a 2 list activation.

14 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Well getting counter 1 and 2 with Kallus is great when I can reroll my crits. Increases my chance of doing damage to 75%. And it is a 2 list activation.

62.5%, and I was just kidding. Though PQ7s I would think give you better utility.