The funniest thing about these threads is all the people who talk about the designers saying "it's not a big problem," and paraphrasing that to, "The designers say it's perfectly okay."

No, that's not what the designers say or said. They've said, publicly, that it's just not a very good tactic and not used very often, but if that changes they will do something to address it.

That's as close as you can get to explicitly saying, "It's not a tactic we consider in the spirit of the game" without literally saying that.

And that's in public. Talk to them in a more private setting, and they'll probably be more open about it.

It's also odd how it's so difficult for some people to grasp that the entire point of the concept of "poor sportsmanship" is to talk about things that are technically not cheating, yet are both unintended and damaging for a game or sport. "Cheating" and "poor sportsmanship" are not conceptual synonyms any more than "playing by the rules" and "good sportsmanship" are conceptual synonyms.

My theory is that the conflation between cheating and poor sportsmanship is quite deliberate ... "I'm not cheating, therefore it's wrong to express the opinion that my behavior is bad sportsmanship." No, no; that's not necessarily wrong at all.

On the subject of Fortressing, I have been considering trying this squad out just because it seems grotesque:

Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Collision Detector (0)
Fleet Officer (3)

Captain Yorr (24)
Collision Detector (0)
Inspiring Recruit (1)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The Upsilon moves into the lead position, everyone else moves in to bump behind it, and then the Upsilon just does zero-speed maneuvers and passes Focus tokens with Fleet Officer while Yorr soaks all stress. On the one hand, it's a fortress. On the other hand, it justifies the fact that I own three Lambdas.

I think people who call fortressing silly are the ones who are silly. Say you're flying nothing but bombers and built your entire strategy on dropping bombs. Do you really expect your opponent to fly into them kamikaze-style? Sorry, but I don't think so. And if the fortress hurts your strategy because of that, then well, it's your fault for not building a more balanced squad.

I rarely see fortressing beyond people trying to delay first or second turn maneuvers. I've come across proper fortressing only a handful of times. In each case there was a clear and obvious answer.

In the case of TLT fortresses, I've literally just waited. The fortress eventually breaks out of frustration (honestly had a fortressing opponent with 4 Y-wings call me unsportsmanlike in a game for not careening into the jaws of death), and you're free to play the game out. This has been especially better with the Final Salvo rules, as 3x K-wing fortresses rarely get to outgun any list in a primary dice off, so the ball is certainly in their court.

In the case of large base fortresses, I've made one quick pass at the point where the least return fire would happen, stripping one to half HP. After that, I'll pull back and wait for the fortress to disperse and play out as normal, or wait for time to be called and win on points. The opponent usually realises this fairly quickly and opts for the former over the latter.

I'm only a touch sad that I haven't seen it while using an ordnance heavy list. It'd be cathartic to just outright splash one of them with some beefy spike damage to ruin the formation before they even fired.

This conversation has led me to build a fortressing tactic for my squads the next time I play kwings.

while I don't fortress personally, either something is legal or it isnt. I would argue that fortressing has significant downsides, one of which is lack of actions, another is predictability. you also give your opponent the ability to dictate when and at what range they engage. Also, a tie bomber with EM and assault missles, or the ruthlessness EPT, or other area effect tools, are disproportionately effective against a fortress type setup. I also think just staying out of range and making them break up to engage or take a draw is likewise valid, and not any more trollish than fortressing.

36 minutes ago, Darth Landy said:

I think people who call fortressing silly are the ones who are silly. Say you're flying nothing but bombers and built your entire strategy on dropping bombs. Do you really expect your opponent to fly into them kamikaze-style? Sorry, but I don't think so. And if the fortress hurts your strategy because of that, then well, it's your fault for not building a more balanced squad.

I am silly, but for wholly different reasons than you contend. Why go the hyperbolic route? No, I wouldn't expect someone to fly straight into my bombs. I'd expect them to anticipate where I'll be and try to outmaneuver me. That's what X-Wing is all about?...or at least I thought so when I got into it. Maybe the fortressing squad is the one which isn't well-balanced, since it can't find a way to avoid the bombs.

6 minutes ago, Luke C said:

This conversation has led me to build a fortressing tactic for my squads the next time I play kwings.

Lol, unintended consequences! Oh no!

4 minutes ago, Darthfish said:

I would argue that fortressing has significant downsides, one of which is lack of actions, another is predictability.

That's a commonly overlooked part of the Fortress, not saying the OP did it, but in the many, many discussions about it, there are people who act as if there was no downside to playing the fortress or that it was impossible to beat, both of which are untrue.

I see the frustration that this tactic brings people, and i dont want talk down about players who are frustrated by this, but I have to say, I have never flown an all bomber list like 3 k wings and fortessing was never a problem, if someone fortresses against any list of mine, I feel I would severely punish them for it.

If you feel fortessing is a real problem, learn to play against it, your tactic may need to be better balanced in your squad. It's a mere meta adjustment.

Ion, force the bumping ship to move

Tractor beam, once again, force them to move

Spend some of those bomb points on torpedoes/missiles, maybe ion pulse missile or just something that will do a lot of damage. Maybe do two k wings and something else with a little more teeth.

Or try bombing with imperials and throw in I'll show you the dark side, blind the biggest threat then go it (ok that's a little goofy but sounds fun to at least try)

You could blame the final Salvo, which does make not risking anything a better strategy then before, but I remember this being an answer to us(x wing community) complaining about ties and draws and modified wins. It's easy to complain about the devs doing nothing or not listening to the community, but actually they do it all the time the we just complain about the solution. Before final salvo, a tie or modified win made fortessing a bad tactic. Now that you can't tie, which was great in my opinion at first, a new problem has appeared, people just planning for the final salvo.

I think if this continues to be huge, the developers will do something, as they have stated, but I think fortessing is just a tactic that can be beaten by..well better tactics. There is a weakness to every strategy, if your list wins on one strategy, there will always be a weakness to exploit. If you plan on flying 3 k wings and bombinh, understand you might get fortressed against. Just like if i fly all arc dodging aces, I might get blown away by turrets, or if I fly a decimator, a swarm can blow be apart. Or if I fly all defenders, I might get bombed to bits by 3 k wings

My point is its better for us the players and community to handle the problem, because as history goes, the developers solution won't be good enough for us anyway

41 minutes ago, Darth Landy said:

I think people who call fortressing silly are the ones who are silly. Say you're flying nothing but bombers and built your entire strategy on dropping bombs. Do you really expect your opponent to fly into them kamikaze-style? Sorry, but I don't think so. And if the fortress hurts your strategy because of that, then well, it's your fault for not building a more balanced squad.

Agreed. I have the tiniest violin for Sable and his ilk.

I fail to see any difference between fortressing, continually circling the center of the board, or just going up and down opposite sides of the board.

Just because something is boring, doesn't mean it is against the spirit of the game.

56 minutes ago, PhantomFO said:

On the subject of Fortressing, I have been considering trying this squad out just because it seems grotesque:

Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Collision Detector (0)
Fleet Officer (3)

Captain Yorr (24)
Collision Detector (0)
Inspiring Recruit (1)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The Upsilon moves into the lead position, everyone else moves in to bump behind it, and then the Upsilon just does zero-speed maneuvers and passes Focus tokens with Fleet Officer while Yorr soaks all stress. On the one hand, it's a fortress. On the other hand, it justifies the fact that I own three Lambdas.

I posted this in a thread over in squad building. It potential gives you three parked ships that can have a Target Lock and focus every round. Yorr can potentially use Fantical Devotion to push a hit through with the Tractor beam, making the follow up from his Upsilon buddies hit a little harder.

Captain Yorr (24)
Electronic Baffle (1)
Tractor Beam (1)
Inspiring Recruit (1)
Systems Officer (2)

Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Advanced Sensors (3)
Systems Officer (2)

Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Electronic Baffle (1)
General Hux (5)

Total: 100

Who needs Captian Yorr?

"Epsilon Leader" (19)
Comm Relay (3)

Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Collision Detector (0)
Inspiring Recruit (1)
Fleet Officer (3)
Weapons Guidance (2)
Pattern Analyzer (2)
Kylo Ren's Shuttle (2)

Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Collision Detector (0)
Inspiring Recruit (1)
Fleet Officer (3)
Weapons Guidance (2)
Pattern Analyzer (2)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Stop, Pattern Analizer, Fleet officer both upsilons for 2 stress and 2 focus each, Leader bumps, clears stress, two inspiring recruits clear the upsilons stress. Leader still has evade token from Comm relay. Repeat. Surge forward to throw off their advance, then stop again.

2 hours ago, CBMarkham said:

I honestly think this is just a problem of perception. People tell themselves that it’s an abuse of rules or exploitation, because in their minds, these ships should be dogfighting and dogfighting only. They want theme to be king and for the rules to actively enforce the flavor of the game in the way that tastes best to them.

So like, let’s talk about theme.

Let’s say that you’re out in space and you’re squad leader. You’re sitting in the cockpit and you’re the man who calls the shots for your squad of space aces. Your enemies are at **** near a dead stop (however it is that Star Wars ships achieve that) and cowering from you along the edge of a contested area. Your goal is to turn them into space dust because that’s what a big, bad, space ace like you does. What’s your plan for that?

Is your plan to boo and jeer them over the com system? “Hey, you lame jerks! Where’s your honour?! Come fight us! Why you hiding?! I got some pew pew for ya!” Eventually, you run out of patience, get half your fleet blown up, then end up at a bar on Tattooine, crying to the bartender about how you don’t like foes who refuse to fight you and your squad mates with honour because it’s not how you feel space fighting should go? Is that what you do? Is that the narrative you tell yourself?

You’re a squad leader out in space and your enemies are doing something you’re not a big fan of. Figure out how you’re going to punish them and get the space explosions you want. The fact that you don’t like that their ships have the ability to come to a stop in space doesn’t seem to be preventing them from doing it, does it? So teach them that stopping in space isn’t a thing that’s going to prevent them from exploding, ‘cause that’s where your satisfaction is going to come from. That’s something you can actively work towards and achieve, and it’d feel ten times more satisfying than if FFG just came in here and banned that tactic for you.

If the problem you’re having is one of perception, challenge your current perceptions. Don’t demand that the game be modified to fit your existing perceptions. Or, if you choose to demand that the game be modified to fit your existing perceptions, try not to question the integrity of your fellow players who perceive things differently. As long as your opponents are treating you with respect and acting in accordance with the rules, their sportsmanship doesn’t need to be called into question.

I like your point.

My counterpoint is that thematically you can't sit in a corner in space and point all your guns forward. There is no board edge in space therefore if you want to sit still and aim all your ships facing one way the enemies should be able to flank you. This is not possible with the board edges.

Just now, TBot said:

I like your point.

My counterpoint is that thematically you can't sit in a corner in space and point all your guns forward. There is no board edge in space therefore if you want to sit still and aim all your ships facing one way the enemies should be able to flank you. This is not possible with the board edges.

You're not wrong, but the fact that I can find a narrative way to explain fortressing for myself wasn't really my point. I've never actively fortressed, and I have no real opinions on it one way or another. I like to play X-Wing and it's fun when a game makes thematic sense, so for myself, I try and bend the theme to fit the rules so I can enjoy envisioning the game more.

A friend of mine asked me to explain bumping to him, thematically. "Shouldn't they take damage and explode when they crash into each other, and junk? Why do they just loose actions?" I told him that I saw this not as a collision, but as ships expending effort, time and concentration trying not to collide with one another, and in doing so, losing the opportunity to do other things.

You're right that fortressing in X-Wing wouldn't be a real thing in a space fight, because enemies can get behind you....but like, that's kind of an insane road to go down. You'd have to start questioning things like "Why are there always exactly six dangerous obstacles, everywhere we choose to fight in space?" and "How come I only ever see enemy forces that are relatively equivalent in size and power to my squad?" We can't possibly try to dive into all of that if we're ever going to actually play a game of X-Wing once in our lives, rather than just go mad.

Your options are 1) to justify for yourself why a rule is thematically fine, then try to have fun, or 2) pick it apart and declare it un-thematic and lame, and detract from your own enjoyment.

If you choose to call a rule in the game unthematic and lame and end up detracting from your enjoyment, that's your own business. Maybe that's just how you really feel, and you couldn't help it. I do not fault you. When you tell everyone else who plays the game that they should feel the same way, and actively rebel against the unthematic nature of the existence of the thing you dislike, and then decry that they're not sportsmanlike if they do not share your view of things....well, that's where you and I will part ways.

In my opinion, if fortressing doesn't fall under stalling for time under the official rules definition of bad sportsmanship, then neither should waiting for fortresses to break position. After all, non fortress fleets are under no obligation to feed themselves into a crossfire trap just to cater to their opponent.

Basically, the people who feel that fortressing isn't in the spirit of the game should do everything in their power to run out the clock and go to final salvo. Anyone who doesn't fortress gets treated to the common courtesy of a typical x-wing match that features the core game component of spaceship movement, but anyone who does decide to fortress has nothing to look forward to besides playing the slowest single toss game of high dice known to man.

You can argue that "subjectively" this is unsportsmanlike behavior, but any argument that would apply would equally apply to fortressing itself. If you really want to fortress, then physically standing around for the full 60-90 minutes doing nothing else but declaring the same actions over and over again is just the price you have to pay for it.

55 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I posted this in a thread over in squad building. It potential gives you three parked ships that can have a Target Lock and focus every round. Yorr can potentially use Fantical Devotion to push a hit through with the Tractor beam, making the follow up from his Upsilon buddies hit a little harder.

Captain Yorr (24)
Electronic Baffle (1)
Tractor Beam (1)
Inspiring Recruit (1)
Systems Officer (2)

Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Advanced Sensors (3)
Systems Officer (2)

Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Electronic Baffle (1)
General Hux (5)

Total: 100

But this squad doesn't help me justify owning three Lambdas. In fact, it even requires me to buy another Upsilon.

...

You're the devil.

Bombers want ships to move around, that is how they do damage. Fortressing is their counter. I dont like fortressing, but I understand it.

Jousters want ships to fly in a straight line at them. Arc dodgers are their counter. If ships boost and barrel roll out of their arc every round, and they cant get a shot, is it unsportsmanlike just because the other player is not having fun against arc dodgers? They chose to bring multiple low PS ships that cant reposition.

If you are going to bring triple bombers, you have to know this is a tactic against you. Everything has a counter, and when you have three identical ships in a list and come up against your counter, you are going to have a tough time. The list needs to adjust and evolve for this. Bring Biggs and a couple missiles, and trade Biggs for 27+ pts of theirs and it breaks the fortress. Do a pass, launch some missiles, lose Biggs, do another pass, launch missiles, kill big ship. Now you are in the lead.

I think people need to just adjust their list. Bring a regen T-70 like Snap who can fly in, attack, fly out and regen, then make another pass. They wont be fortressing for long.

If you bring an all TIE Bomber list without deadeye and come up against a PTL Poe with black one and vectored thrusters, you have no reason to cry, you know black one is your hard counter and brought something like crackshot instead of deadeye. Your bad.

Warden Squadron Pilot (23)
Extra Munitions (2)
Sabine Wren (2)
Seismic Charges (2)
Proximity Mines (3)
Advanced SLAM (2)

Warden Squadron Pilot (23)
Extra Munitions (2)
Cluster Mines (4)
Advanced SLAM (2)

"Snap" Wexley (28)
Veteran Instincts (1)
R5-P9 (3)
Autothrusters (2)
Black One (1)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

I don't like fortressing. Then again, I don't like flying against bombing Ks. I get why people fly them, it's like a weird puzzle where things go boom, but the SLAM that makes it so fun makes it a total pain to fly against. Or maybe it's advanced SLAM that's causing the issue here.

Either way, even if I don't like them personally, they both fit in the game as valid strategies that have counters, so I'm fine with it. Chasing Miranda with Fenn is a scary experience

For the record, I played against my son with this list and it was a blast:

Warden Squadron Pilot — K-Wing
Extra Munitions
Seismic Torpedo
Bombardier
Cluster Mines
Seismic Charges
Advanced SLAM
Ship Total: 36

Warden Squadron Pilot — K-Wing
Extra Munitions
Seismic Torpedo
Bombardier
Cluster Mines
Seismic Charges
Advanced SLAM
Ship Total: 36

Ahsoka Tano — TIE Fighter
Veteran Instincts
Sabine Wren
Scavenger Crane
Cluster Mines
Captured TIE
Sabine's Masterpiece
Ship Total: 28

Ahsoka actually got Scavenger Crane to trigger when a K splashed damage to kill Poe who was trying to chase her. She proceeded to lay another cluster for Ello that was also going that way.

His reaction was pretty much what you'd expect, that wasn't what he had in mind when he said he wanted to play x-wing. Basically, fun to play, not quite as fun to play against.

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

No, I wouldn't expect someone to fly straight into my bombs. I'd expect them to anticipate where I'll be and try to outmaneuver me. That's what X-Wing is all about?

Playing devil's advocate here:

How exactly would one outmaneuver lower PS ships that get two maneuvers and an action and know exactly where your ship will before before it gets an opportunity to move? Shouldn't the Advanced SLAM K-Wing with Bombs be as much of an anathema to someone that feels like fortressing is against the spirit of the game?

2 hours ago, PhantomFO said:

On the subject of Fortressing, I have been considering trying this squad out just because it seems grotesque:

Starkiller Base Pilot (30)
Collision Detector (0)
Fleet Officer (3)

Captain Yorr (24)
Collision Detector (0)
Inspiring Recruit (1)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)

Omicron Group Pilot (21)
Collision Detector (0)

Total: 100

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

The Upsilon moves into the lead position, everyone else moves in to bump behind it, and then the Upsilon just does zero-speed maneuvers and passes Focus tokens with Fleet Officer while Yorr soaks all stress. On the one hand, it's a fortress. On the other hand, it justifies the fact that I own three Lambdas.

Why did you get 3 lambdas before the upsilon was released?

7 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Playing devil's advocate here:

How exactly would one outmaneuver lower PS ships that get two maneuvers and an action and know exactly where your ship will before before it gets an opportunity to move? Shouldn't the Advanced SLAM K-Wing with Bombs be as much of an anathema to someone that feels like fortressing is against the spirit of the game?

While I understand your point, there is a quite pragmatic difference: Bombing is working exactly as the designers intended. (The overall effect on the meta, and so forth, might be unintended, and the power-level of bombing might be higher than expected, but bombing itself -- including Sabine -- is being used exactly as intended.) Fortressing is an unintended consequence of loose overlap rules in a game where forward movement is clearly intended to be the norm for every ship.

Or, to put it in a shorthand form that some people really, really seem to hate: bombing is adhering to the spirit of the rules; fortressing is not.

2 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

While I understand your point, there is a quite pragmatic difference: Bombing is working exactly as the designers intended. (The overall effect on the meta, and so forth, might be unintended, and the power-level of bombing might be higher than expected, but bombing itself -- including Sabine -- is being used exactly as intended.) Fortressing is an unintended consequence of loose overlap rules in a game where forward movement is clearly intended to be the norm for every ship.

Or, to put it in a shorthand form that some people really, really seem to hate: bombing is adhering to the spirit of the rules; fortressing is not.

And yet, many will continue doing it as so long as they face bombers with ace lists (or any other lists that simply find bombs annoying or hard to deal with).

I see no problem with from a sportsmanship perspective. And I don't accept the win at any cost arguments. It is a strategy that might help you win, just like any other strategy. To a certain extent figuring out a new way to play and win should always be part of the game.

There is some merit as to the fact that it isn't any fun to play against. But I don't find Dangaroo fun to play against. My opponents don't find my 3 TIE Defenders fun to play against. I do think it is the responsibility of every player to conduct themselves in a friendly and mature manner, to that extent I think I should be fun to play against. But I don't think it is fair to restrict an opponents list building or game play beyond the rules because you find what they are doing difficult to play against.

Honestly I would rather see all 360 degree arcs changed to mobile firing arcs and autothrusters removed from the game before any strategy was illegalized.

28 minutes ago, DeathstarII said:

Why did you get 3 lambdas before the upsilon was released?

Why should I wait until Wave X to own three Lambdas and experience the joy of flying the Alabastor Hippo Ballet?

Plus, the third was a Christmas gift.