3 hours ago, Sencho said:

You are right in highlighting the costs of development for upgrade cards. The cost of the physical card vs development is obviously not equal. I'm not sure though that some cards cost a drastic amount more to play test that it's monetary value would actually be greater than any other. Sure, some cards require more testing, but every card goes through careful designing (hopefully). Even a seemingly simple upgrade card can break the game if it combos with something else in unintended ways so I really don't think Palp or Autothrusters actually cost more in development over other cards to place a higher money value on them in a print on demand or upgrade "booster" pack model.

As I recall, there are 3 designers for X-Wing at FFG. If they each make US$50,000 (Which is starvation wage where I live, but maybe not in other places), that means it costs FFG $150,000 minimum per year to design everything X-Wing in any given year. That doesn't include the cost of paying the wages of the person (people?) who design the models for the ships, or the cost to print and package and ship the cards, etc.

The thing is: you can't really separate out the cost of designing any given card from the cost of developing the game as a whole. It just.... it doesn't work very well. Not to mention how much cheaper it is for FFG to bulk print and bulk ship cards than it is to do one off printing for every card they have designed.1

That's also putting aside what happens to the relationship FFG has with various FLGS when a substantial part of the X-Wing product moves from product being sold in stores to products being sold directly through FFG's website.

It's not that these are insurmountable problems, but they're certainly problems outside the scope of your proposed solution. Maybe redesigning the game with a POD model would actually be better for the game as a whole, FFG's bottom line, and the FLGS community. But I'm not convinced of that.

16 hours ago, MacchuWA said:

The classic example here is autothrusters coming with the Starviper. That was a card designed with the TIE Interceptor in mind, but also one that affected tonnes of other ships. It needed a lot of careful designing and playtesting as a result - so it's a high cost card. To recoup some of that cost, they put it in the Starviper - a "medium sized" expansion that most game stores sell for $30-$36 AUD instead of the $20-$25 AUD that more standard small base blisters sell for.

TBF (and I don't think you're implying otherwise), I think they designed the StarViper as the centerpiece of the Scum faction back in Wave 6. It just... didn't work. They had tried to design a tanky/punchy interceptor and didn't quite understand what strengths and weaknesses the Squint had. Had each of the StarViper pilots been just a point or two less (or 3, for the Black Sun Enforcer...), the entire Scum faction would look _very_ different.

16 hours ago, MacchuWA said:

The classic example here is autothrusters coming with the Starviper. That was a card designed with the TIE Interceptor in mind, but also one that affected tonnes of other ships. It needed a lot of careful designing and playtesting as a result - so it's a high cost card. To recoup some of that cost, they put it in the Starviper - a "medium sized" expansion that most game stores sell for $30-$36 AUD instead of the $20-$25 AUD that more standard small base blisters sell for.

Autothrusters - a card designed for the Interceptor but is only available through one ship for the scum faction. There have been opportunities to add this card to other faction's ship packs since - TIE Punisher, TIE Adv Prototype, T-70 X-Wing - but they have not been. I have no issue with the model of bundling cards with a ship but I like to buy ships I may one day play. I'm an Imperial player with no interest in Scum but I have the Star Viper. The money doesn't bother me too much. I would have probably spent it on another Imperial ship anyway but in that case I would feel better about my purchase, financially FFG is no worse off and I would think better about them.

32 minutes ago, Chivenger said:

I started a thread like this about the Rebel Transport Astromech cards. If they put out a deck of upgrade cards, I would buy that in an INSTANT. I am really only interested in Rebel ships and I don't like the idea of buying more than I want to play the figures I did want the best way possible.

Once again, I point to your saviour in this regard; eBay (I swear, if I didn't feel like I was talking to a wall, I'd be asking for commission).

What you, the OP, and a small number of others are asking for is a dramatic shift in business model - to one that not only doesn't make financial sense, but one that they've directly addressed negatively in the past - to satisfy what is a fractional percentage of the overall market. Meanwhile, a working business model already exists for what you want in a third party market online. Single upgrade and pilot cards are available ad infinitum online, through eBay sellers who cater to people exactly like you. Screaming for FFG to realign their entire revenue stream to sort a "problem" that not only most people don't view as a problem, but one that has a solution, is just ridiculous. Come to think of it, when I was at Nationals, there were stores just off the main competitive area that literally had display cases full of single upgrade cards, such is the acceptance of the trade.

It really isn't a problem if you can solve it by typing it into Google and hitting "I'm Feeling Lucky". If you want to campaign for a better distribution network of upgrade cards, ask FFG to put higher value cards in the kit events. Swarm Tactics is a fairly useless prize card, but they've been reasonably on form with things like VI, Predator, and C3P0. How about an alt-art Autothrusters for those unwilling to buy Starvipers? Perhaps Crack Shot or Juke? Ubiquitous, strong cards with few sources that tend to be a touch saucy on the singles market. There's your campaign, and it's one you'll find a lot more support for than booster packs.

On 2/12/2017 at 8:37 PM, Mace Windu said:

I'm afraid you going to have to deal with the status quo, FFG's business model typically has the most desirable upgrade cards in the wave pocketed in with the typically worst ship of the wave (not always but you get the idea)

I basically just paid the equivalent of $50USD from my local game store (the sad side effect of living in the outer rim) for a Kylo Ren crew card that came with a shuttle I didn’t want. Sure I might use it at some point but I'm just not interested in the ship.

This is sadly the way that FFG will continue to operate, and why wouldn’t they, X-wing has virtually become the biggest minis game on the market why would the change a winning (money making) formula.

It's also possible they packaged Kylo Ren crew with the ship he was on in the movie. Rather than it merely being a scheme to declare war on our wallets. However unlikely, I think should at least consider the possibility.

The business model that has worked for them for a long time now is to package ships with upgrade cards. Why, from a business standpoint, should they change it? They don't exist to give people what they want at the price they WANT it at. They are supposed to sell people things they want at the price they are willing to pay for it. They have been successful at doing that and virtually every time one of these post come up there are almost no financial reasons presented to why they should change anything. The fact that "we" want it isn't incentive enough. The reason they probably haven't changed it after all this time is because it probably isn't the more profitable thing to do and they aren't going to give up profits to appease a handful of people that want their hobby to be cheaper.

On 13.2.2017 at 2:59 AM, NakedDex said:

"A main part of our product is really desirable. Let's sell it for below cost price in a manner that undercuts our entire business model!"

You forgot to add 'Said noone ever.'. So I'll do it for you:

Said noone ever.

17 hours ago, NakedDex said:

Once again, I point to your saviour in this regard; eBay (I swear, if I didn't feel like I was talking to a wall, I'd be asking for commission).

What you, the OP, and a small number of others are asking for is a dramatic shift in business model - to one that not only doesn't make financial sense, but one that they've directly addressed negatively in the past - to satisfy what is a fractional percentage of the overall market. Meanwhile, a working business model already exists for what you want in a third party market online. Single upgrade and pilot cards are available ad infinitum online, through eBay sellers who cater to people exactly like you. Screaming for FFG to realign their entire revenue stream to sort a "problem" that not only most people don't view as a problem, but one that has a solution, is just ridiculous. Come to think of it, when I was at Nationals, there were stores just off the main competitive area that literally had display cases full of single upgrade cards, such is the acceptance of the trade.

It really isn't a problem if you can solve it by typing it into Google and hitting "I'm Feeling Lucky". If you want to campaign for a better distribution network of upgrade cards, ask FFG to put higher value cards in the kit events. Swarm Tactics is a fairly useless prize card, but they've been reasonably on form with things like VI, Predator, and C3P0. How about an alt-art Autothrusters for those unwilling to buy Starvipers? Perhaps Crack Shot or Juke? Ubiquitous, strong cards with few sources that tend to be a touch saucy on the singles market. There's your campaign, and it's one you'll find a lot more support for than booster packs.

Your point is well-taken. But, if the individual cards are demanding such a high price, then there is an opportunity for FFG to make money on them by issuing upgrade or pilot cards in decks we can buy from our local retailers and then FFG will make the money and not third party resellers. And just because they are available on ebay does not mean they are available for a price I am interested in paying. So I would not go so far as to say ebay solves the problem.

Ideally, they will issue those particularly useful Astromechs, and other upgrades, as prize support. Then we just have to participate in FFG events and we can get them. Even if I can't make a particular event, the participation cards will help lower the ebay price.

36 minutes ago, Chivenger said:

Your point is well-taken. But, if the individual cards are demanding such a high price, then there is an opportunity for FFG to make money on them by issuing upgrade or pilot cards in decks we can buy from our local retailers and then FFG will make the money and not third party resellers. And just because they are available on ebay does not mean they are available for a price I am interested in paying. So I would not go so far as to say ebay solves the problem.

Ideally, they will issue those particularly useful Astromechs, and other upgrades, as prize support. Then we just have to participate in FFG events and we can get them. Even if I can't make a particular event, the participation cards will help lower the ebay price.

If the cards come in a deck, then you'd still have third-party resellers for people who don't want even want to pay $10 for a deck just to obtain one or two cards.

Meanwhile, the retail stores will find themselves with extra product, as players buy fewer ships. Why buy a full Most Wanted pack when you can get the BTL-A4 title and Autoblaster Turrets for your Rebel fleet separately? With demand dropping, they won't waste valuable shelf space carrying all the various ships, and FFG won't reprint them as often (if at all).

After a wave is released, they should wait a few months for people to get their ships who can't wait for cards, then release a Wave # pack for $9.99 that includes two of all the waves upgrades (minus any titles or ship unique cards). That way, people who want expertise for their imps don't have to buy a U-Wing, or pay for it on ebay.

52 minutes ago, Chivenger said:

Your point is well-taken. But, if the individual cards are demanding such a high price, then there is an opportunity for FFG to make money on them by issuing upgrade or pilot cards in decks we can buy from our local retailers and then FFG will make the money and not third party resellers. And just because they are available on ebay does not mean they are available for a price I am interested in paying. So I would not go so far as to say ebay solves the problem.

Ideally, they will issue those particularly useful Astromechs, and other upgrades, as prize support. Then we just have to participate in FFG events and we can get them. Even if I can't make a particular event, the participation cards will help lower the ebay price.

The eBay price is driven by rarity combined with usefulness. Autothrusters is still a pricey card because it's still wildly useful, but only available in one expansion. Crack Shot was like that too, with the Khiraxz being the only small base ship to have one, but the resell price dropped with Imperial considerably when Imperial Veterans came out.

However, get this... FFG are still making their money. These resellers are buying expansions buy the boxload, and breaking them up for people who only want cards, or ships. I know a few people who use these folks as a way of collecting the minis rather than play the game, and far more that use them to supplement their card collection when getting into the game. FFG releasing card packs of these upgrades doesn't help their bottom line as a business, and customer satisfaction is still more than high enough that they don't have to even consider card packs. Additionally, as PhantomFO said, the reseller market would still exist for people who don't want to spend the cost of a deck for a single card.

Picture this: the most likely iteration of a card deck for this style of game is a known-content pack of X number of cards in singles or doubles. For the sake of argument, lets say it's 10 cards at 2 singles and 4 pairs. To make that viable in terms of a product, the two singles would have to be the high value cards (lets say 1x AT and 1x Crack Shot), and the rest would be the median cards (lets say 2x IA, 2x Primed Thrusters, 2x Seismic Torpedo, 2x Tactician). That's a fairly balanced, generic pack with something for everyone, regardless of whether they specialise in a faction or not. They're also all cards that are in short-ish supply, in terms of packs they're in.

Sounds good for about 10 bucks, right? First of all, lets say it's not. Lets be realistic about the pricing and say between printing and shipping, you're looking at closer to $15. This isn't unrealistic when you consider similar styles of card expansions run in the same price range. Star Realms, for example, has known-content expansions for about $14 a pack for 12 cards.

Next, lets take into account that not everyone will want every card that's in the pack. Seismic Torpedoes, for example, aren't exactly tearing up the meta, but you're not always going to get meta-bending cards in these packs. IA may not interest anyone who doesn't use Rebels a lot, or even those who do use Rebels but simply don't use any iteration of X-wing. In other words, there'll always be cards in the packs that people don't want. Furthermore, there'll be cards in those packs that people may only want; for example someone may want AT without buying a Starviper, but now has the choice of picking up a $17 Starviper, a $15 card pack, or going to eBay and spending the $5 there instead. Even if they were an ambitious $10 per pack, the eBay option would be cheaper than the pack in terms of single cards, and arguably made even cheaper again by the mere existence of the card packs.

And none of this covers the unique or faction locked cards, which generally wouldn't fit anything but faction specific card packs, which in itself opens a whole other can of worms in terms of product economics.

tl;dr Card packs are not the solution any more than print on demand. In effect, it would just be FFG crutching a resale market while reducing their own market share.

As long as we don't get cards on a pack that are just plain not usable by the ship they come with then we're in a pretty good place. Clearly the model is working for FFG.

Even better with the hypothetical pack above: Starviper actually comes with two Autothrusters, so it's still the more economical buy if the pack costs more than $10.

On 2/13/2017 at 6:11 PM, NakedDex said:

Once again, I point to your saviour in this regard; eBay (I swear, if I didn't feel like I was talking to a wall, I'd be asking for commission).

Yep. The last three X-wing purchases I have made have been at Henry's Outpost on ebay. (I'll take commission Henry!)

On 2/13/2017 at 6:11 PM, NakedDex said:

What you, the OP, and a small number of others are asking for is a dramatic shift in business model - to one that not only doesn't make financial sense, but one that they've directly addressed negatively in the past - to satisfy what is a fractional percentage of the overall market.

I have never said I want FFG to shift their business model. They should keep selling expansions with upgrade cards the way they always have. What I am saying is, due to how big the game is now and the large number of upgrade cards within it, is there something that can be added to the current model that makes the cards more attainable. And yes NakedDex, I know you are just going to point back to ebay, but is buying X-wing product online good for FLGSs? Nope.

Also, where did they address this in the past? I would like to read that if you have a link to it.

On 2/13/2017 at 6:11 PM, NakedDex said:

Screaming for FFG to realign their entire revenue stream to sort a "problem" that not only most people don't view as a problem, but one that has a solution, is just ridiculous.

I don't think I or any other posters that would like an alternate way to give FFG our money have been "screaming" on here. I'm sure there are people who really like how upgrade cards are distributed, you are obviously one of them, but I never talked with anyone else that seemed excited about buying expansions for individual upgrade cards (or buying them on ebay). This is the model we have but I don't see a lot of people telling people how awesome this aspect of the game is. Anytime I have to start explaining the options available to get upgrade cards to new players I see the excitement in their eyes about the game fade. Maybe this is just part of the labor of love for this game but I still hope new, official FFG options will be explored in the future.

The problem is you don't see what you're suggesting as a business model shift, but that's exactly what it is. FFG's model for X-wing is they release 2-4 waves of 3-5 ships in a year. Within each of those ships are 4-6 pilots and 2-6 upgrade cards (for small; large/ace will vary). The upgrade cards in each ship are relevant to that ship in that you can build the ship with whatever is in the pack (no torpedoes with TIE Fighters, etc).

What you're suggesting is that FFG now start printing packs of cards separate to this model. This creates a whole new line of product, which shifts the model. The game now has two types of expansion pack, ships and cards. The reason for doing this is simply "I want cards without buying ships", but unfortunately the profitable model is "you can buy ships and get cards with them, plus you have more ships". I get it, you don't want ships from other factions. Personally, I don't see the fun in containing yourself to a single faction arbitrarily, but sure. Ultimately, FFG is a business, and the concept of printing packs of cards would cost them profit in the long run. Businesses aren't fond of that, and they generally don't tend to hang around long when investors see the balance sheets start to drop just to placate a minor consumer sentiment issue.

The main reason I keep pointing to eBay is because every card you see on eBay came from a pack that someone bought, opened, broke down, and is reselling. The result is FFG got their money for that expansion, too. In other words, the singles market is literally another revenue flow for them already, albeit an indirect one. They're getting full price from the people buying those packs for breakdown. It's a nice little symbiotic relationship.

The other reason I keep pointing to it is what I've also already mentioned; card packs would just drive the eBay cost down. It's all lovely to suggest the FLGS would lose out on money, but if I want a copy of Crack Shot and my choices are $3 on eBay, or a $17 Khiraxz in the store, I'm going to eBay. If card packs are brought out, and there's a copy in one, my choices are probably $2 on eBay or a $14 card pack in the store; the packs will make it easier for resellers to get those singles to sell on, the store sees no difference, and FFG actually earns less money because they haven't sold the ship expansion in the first place.

Further, that decline in sales of the ship expansions would result in fewer reprints, which in turn would result in ships often going out of stock worldwide, with increased lead times. A general fall in unit sales numbers would indicate a decline in the game's future popularity (albeit somewhat falsely due to skewed resale markets), which could result in FFG being forced to reduce the staff working on the game in order to free up resources for other projects, as well as potentially fewer prize supported events (kits may be reduced to 1 or 2 a year, cull the Open series, etc). Now this all may sound like it's being paranoid or a dramatisation, but this is literally how switching to a lower profit margin model can perform in a market as fluid as gaming unless the card packs happen to be expensive and/or full of filler cards, thereby making their value remain artificially high. Worse still, they could be random-content packs...

But this is all academic, because the devs were asked in an interview before about whether they'd be working on card-only expansions, and they pretty much dismissed it out of hand. I can't remember the interview off the top of my head (it's 6am here, give me a break...), but I think it was either with the Team Covenant folks. Maybe at a GenCon? Someone here will remember. It was discussed at the time.

Incidentally, I just received a big old order of Armada cards from Henry's Outpost myself. Top folks there. Assault Proton Torpedoes are $10 a card, but it's still a **** sight cheaper than buying another MC30 just for that.

13 hours ago, NakedDex said:

The other reason I keep pointing to it is what I've also already mentioned; card packs would just drive the eBay cost down. It's all lovely to suggest the FLGS would lose out on money, but if I want a copy of Crack Shot and my choices are $3 on eBay, or a $17 Khiraxz in the store, I'm going to eBay. If card packs are brought out, and there's a copy in one, my choices are probably $2 on eBay or a $14 card pack in the store; the packs will make it easier for resellers to get those singles to sell on, the store sees no difference, and FFG actually earns less money because they haven't sold the ship expansion in the first place.

Further, that decline in sales of the ship expansions would result in fewer reprints, which in turn would result in ships often going out of stock worldwide, with increased lead times. A general fall in unit sales numbers would indicate a decline in the game's future popularity (albeit somewhat falsely due to skewed resale markets), which could result in FFG being forced to reduce the staff working on the game in order to free up resources for other projects, as well as potentially fewer prize supported events (kits may be reduced to 1 or 2 a year, cull the Open series, etc). Now this all may sound like it's being paranoid or a dramatisation, but this is literally how switching to a lower profit margin model can perform in a market as fluid as gaming unless the card packs happen to be expensive and/or full of filler cards, thereby making their value remain artificially high. Worse still, they could be random-content packs...

You make some really good, well thought out, points. Thanks for taking the time to explain your position in a friendly fashion. This makes more sense now and I see how my suggestion could have a negative effect if it was implemented. You mentioned the possibility of "booster" packs for X-wing. With the success of SW: Destiny that might be more of a frightful possibility than we would like.

15 hours ago, NakedDex said:

But this is all academic, because the devs were asked in an interview before about whether they'd be working on card-only expansions, and they pretty much dismissed it out of hand. I can't remember the interview off the top of my head (it's 6am here, give me a break...), but I think it was either with the Team Covenant folks. Maybe at a GenCon? Someone here will remember. It was discussed at the time.

If you do come across that interview, or any other interesting ones from the devs about their business model I'd love to read them. Feel free to PM me with a link if you find any. Thanks!

Hey, there's never a reason to keep it anything but civil. It's just a good natured debate! I'm happy to talk about this kind of thing anytime.