So I was at the Milwaukee Regionals yesterday and I had a frustrating experience in game 1. Basically, it was taking my opponent forever to do everything. He agonized over his command choices for several minutes every turn, it could take him several minutes to determine how he wanted to move each ship as he measured and remeasured, he would think about which ship to activate for a minute or two, etc. It got worse the further we got into the game as it was clear I was winning. When we had about 5 minutes left and we were at the tail end of turn 4, it took him about 3 minutes for an unimportant Gozanti maneuver, which ensured turn 5 would never begin and thus we could never play it out (where his flagship ISD would be destroyed). The game ended at turn 4 with his 150 point ISD dead to rights (5-6 hull damage, no shields) double arced by my flagship Gladiator. Had we even gone to turn 5, it would've easily been at least an 8-3 split my way. Had we gone to turn 6, I stood a good chance of tabling him for a 9-2. But because the game was finished on turn 4, I won 6-5. My friends who were observing the game (theirs had concluded already, they were silent spectators it should be noted) were furious. I was miffed. I had politely mentioned at about 35 minutes left that I did not want to be rude but the time was running short so if he could please move a bit faster that would be great, but he dragged out the clock so the game ended on turn 4 and at that point it was too late to do anything about it. Basically at the start of the game I was uncertain if he was just indecisive or not that good a player but by the end of it I was convinced I'd been deliberately slow-played in order to prevent a larger loss.

I still got 5th overall (of 23 people), which is fine. I wanted another set of shiny dice and acrylic brace tokens and I got them. But I'm not pleased with how game one went and it had repercussions for my other two games which made my experience less enjoyble (in which I played against my buddies and Fair Game regulars John and Mike, when I was really hoping to play against some new people I'd never played before).

So my question becomes "how do you deal with this kind of situation?" I'm aware of the tournament rules stipulating that if a player is concerned his opponent is slow playing he is to notify a judge who will then basically watch the match like a hawk. The problem with this solution is it makes what should be a friendly game into a very adversarial situation. You become "that guy" who might just be the kind of jerk who will rush newer/less decisive players to make even worse moves by getting a judge involved. But if you don't get a judge involved, you're at the mercy of the slow-player setting the pace as to when the game is actually going to end to maximize the tournament points he will have and I don't like enabling meta-gaming nonsense like that. The in-between option is just asking politely to please speed it up, which I did, but it had no effect. So how exactly does one thread this needle? I'm not going to tournaments to be a hardcore win at all costs jerk who makes games contentious but neither do I want to be disadvantaged by someone gaming the system; there appears to be no intermediary. I just want a clean game that goes to turn 6, win or lose.

As a frequent competitor of this player, I can tell you that he's just darn slow, overanalyzing every detail. My untimed games with him frequently approach 3 hours. I've talked to him about speeding up his play, but meticulous nature and agonizing every decision is just his play style.

I know that doesn't help the bad feeling of not getting to play all 6 turns, especially when the next turn was likely to be a big swing.

Honestly, I think the only way to deal with slow play - whether intentional or not - is to involve a judge. A comment to the judge that, "Hey, I don't know if this person is intentionally slow or not, but can you keep an eye on our game and say something if you feel like he's playing too slowly?" A judge can give a player a warning to speed up their play or that their behavior will be considered stalling.

Thats really the only reasonable course of action, and it exists within the existing OP reference.

Yeah, get a judge.. there is a big gray area between being slow and deliberate slow-play that unless you play the person regularly is difficult to discern. Part of the judge's job is to be the "bad cop" if needed to keep things moving. You don't want to cause a negative play experience to a new tourney player who simply isn't used to the pace, but the time limits are real, let the judge handle the push.

Its true, some people are just that way- one of my close friends regularly suffers from what he calls 'analysis paralysis'. I can keep him rolling by reminding him its just a game, but it ups his stress level alot when those quicker decisions bite him in the ass later.

But thats part of why he doesnt play in tournaments. He knows its a different animal, and it wont be fun for him because hell either feel bad for making poorer decisions or for dragging the game out.

In a similar vein I had a 7 hour match against a gentleman a couple weeks ago, and it turned what should have been a relaxing and enjoyable game into a stressful test of my patience and manners. If I engaged him, things took longer. If I offered advice it had to be analyzed, as I was his opponent and possibly trying to trick him. Etc etc etc. If it had been a tournament I would have felt the need to call a judge. The man has medical issues, and Im sure they played a part in it. Im also sure its just part of his personality and it wasnt meant to upset me.... thats not really who he is. But at the end of the day, it was horrible. I would hate to have to do it again.

This sounds very similar to one of my play experiences in the Sacramento regional tournament last year in my first match. I've never had an Armada game go to time until I faced this opponent. Everyone else was spectating and the TO was just waiting for me to call him in to arbitrate, but I did not know this player and decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. Ultimately I lost to a massive points disadvantage (Superior positions), and that day culminated into so much of a terrible Armada experience that I would have hot-dropped the game if I wasn't as invested in it as I am ($25 admission after an hour long drive, bye on second round, ended up in last place). In fact, one of my buddies did just that because his experience wasn't stellar either, and I recall he faced that opponent.

I can also recall at the end of the day wondering if I had been deliberately slow-played as well, under the guise of ignorance and taking advantage of giving him the benefit of the doubt. So coming out of that, I'm taking the harsh view that you need to come down on him with a TO, in the very least, if half the game time has experienced and you're not even on turn 3. In fact I can remember also making a verbal warning under those conditions in that game and slow play continued. I should have called the TO.

Keep in mind, we paid to be there, and this is not a casual event or store-level championship. True, we'd like Armada events to be inclusive and friendly to new players who have just joined the game, and we don't want to come off as power gamers hungry for every victory we can get. At the same time there's a standard of ability that one has to have to partake in an event we all paid to be at, and if deliberate slow-play is dragging down the experience for a number of players, then the TO has to intervene and encourage them to speed up play, or else drop out.

So if this situation comes up, don't let it happen. Call the TO and advise your opponent that this is a competitive-level event and he needs to step up his game, because he's wasting your time and borderline cheating under the Deliberate slow play rules.

Double post, sorry

50 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

The problem with this solution is it makes what should be a friendly game into a very adversarial situation. You become "that guy" who might just be the kind of jerk who will rush newer/less decisive players to make even worse moves

I feel you bro. Is not easy to be "that guy". My advice is: try to avoid it when playing with friends, if you have a friend that is a slow player deal with it, and if he is really close you can mock on him to speed things up a little.

If he's not, for a casual game just go through and never play again with him later, for your own wellness. For a torunament game, call a judge. No shame on that.

Wow, that does sound like a frustrating situation! I'm sorry you had to experience that. So far, I've seen some players who were naturally slow for whatever reason, but I've not seen anyone who seemed to be intentionally slow-playing. But even if someone is naturally slow, it is perfectly reasonable at a regional event to expect that players to know their lists, know the rules, and be comfortable making decisions in that kind of setting. Anything less is discourteous to one's opponent.

For the record, if we're at a critical juncture in the game, I am completely comfortable taking extra time to ensure that I get the decision right, but the last time I had a game that did not complete the sixth round was in September, so generally the decisions are being made and played out. If the game just isn't getting through turn-4 before time is called, that's probably a sign of excess.

Calling the TO is tough. On the one hand, I'm with you that I'd rather not be that guy and I believe very strongly in benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, losing 2-3 tournament points from clear and deliberate slow-play is easy a number of points in the standings. I look at where I came out yesterday, and 2 points is back into the middle of the pack. You almost have to note it after the game and if the opponent ends up with a pattern of it in other games, the TO can step in, but I'd think it would almost be impossible to really see until the game basically wraps up.

1 hour ago, Snipafist said:

So I was at the Milwaukee Regionals yesterday and I had a frustrating experience in game 1. Basically, it was taking my opponent forever to do everything. He agonized over his command choices for several minutes every turn, it could take him several minutes to determine how he wanted to move each ship as he measured and remeasured, he would think about which ship to activate for a minute or two, etc. It got worse the further we got into the game as it was clear I was winning. When we had about 5 minutes left and we were at the tail end of turn 4, it took him about 3 minutes for an unimportant Gozanti maneuver, which ensured turn 5 would never begin and thus we could never play it out (where his flagship ISD would be destroyed). The game ended at turn 4 with his 150 point ISD dead to rights (5-6 hull damage, no shields) double arced by my flagship Gladiator. Had we even gone to turn 5, it would've easily been at least an 8-3 split my way. Had we gone to turn 6, I stood a good chance of tabling him for a 9-2. But because the game was finished on turn 4, I won 6-5. My friends who were observing the game (theirs had concluded already, they were silent spectators it should be noted) were furious. I was miffed. I had politely mentioned at about 35 minutes left that I did not want to be rude but the time was running short so if he could please move a bit faster that would be great, but he dragged out the clock so the game ended on turn 4 and at that point it was too late to do anything about it. Basically at the start of the game I was uncertain if he was just indecisive or not that good a player but by the end of it I was convinced I'd been deliberately slow-played in order to prevent a larger loss.

I still got 5th overall (of 23 people), which is fine. I wanted another set of shiny dice and acrylic brace tokens and I got them. But I'm not pleased with how game one went and it had repercussions for my other two games which made my experience less enjoyble (in which I played against my buddies and Fair Game regulars John and Mike, when I was really hoping to play against some new people I'd never played before).

So my question becomes "how do you deal with this kind of situation?" I'm aware of the tournament rules stipulating that if a player is concerned his opponent is slow playing he is to notify a judge who will then basically watch the match like a hawk. The problem with this solution is it makes what should be a friendly game into a very adversarial situation. You become "that guy" who might just be the kind of jerk who will rush newer/less decisive players to make even worse moves by getting a judge involved. But if you don't get a judge involved, you're at the mercy of the slow-player setting the pace as to when the game is actually going to end to maximize the tournament points he will have and I don't like enabling meta-gaming nonsense like that. The in-between option is just asking politely to please speed it up, which I did, but it had no effect. So how exactly does one thread this needle? I'm not going to tournaments to be a hardcore win at all costs jerk who makes games contentious but neither do I want to be disadvantaged by someone gaming the system; there appears to be no intermediary. I just want a clean game that goes to turn 6, win or lose.

Sorry to hear about this specific situation you encountered.

In the future, I think it would be helpful to get the judge right away, especially if the delay is going to have a material effect on the outcome of the game.

You said that your gladiator had double arced his flagship ISD, and that if given the opportunity, would have destroyed it but for your opponent's delay.

It's tough to gauge, but I would probably suggest to the judge that the opponent has delayed the game in bad faith, and see if there is any way you can play the game out a bit more because of this. It sounds to me like your opponent was dragging out the game in bad faith, but of course I was not there to spectate.

I haven't glanced at the tourney rules on timing, but it seems to me that the judge should have some sort of discretion to extend the game if a player is delaying in bad faith. The delay has to be egregious and the judge would need to be notified of the delaying tactics and observe them to make a ruling.

If this is an ongoing issue, his friends need to get on him and make him understand that what's annoying but tolerable during casual play is at best rude and at worst cheating in competitive play. If he doesn't get with the program, then he needs to be told he's not welcome at tournaments any longer.

film it for the world to see!

Then I'm that guy. Sorry, if I paid to be at a tourney, I expect a certain level of competency. The second I think someone is slowing his play, I'm calling a TO. Doesn't matter if I'm winning or losing, I want the full six turns to happen, and I've never had a situation yet that the full game was not played out.

Now, if it's just a friendly fun game, or the current CC games I'm having, that's different. That's for fun, and I don't mind taking the time to go over maneuvers, etc.

Then again, I play lightning fast myself.....

Had the same experience at a tournament a few weeks ago. I'm a new player, but I never take forever to make decisions, I was running a 3 ship list, compared to his 5 ship list. So I often was waiting forever for him to decide which ship he wanted to activate, then move, and repeat the whole process.

I would of had a larger margin of victory in another turn and I think he slowed play down just so we wouldn't get to the next turn. (we had 15minutes for him to activate 2 ships, and us to move 6 squadrons. Should of been enough time, yet it wasn't...)

It's something I plan to keep an eye on moving forward, however there wasn't a judge at that even since it was casual and the EC was also playing the game.

I agree with Darth Lupine, once the game is a tourney it is no longer friendly. Call a judge.

*EDIT* Sorry, was Darth Lupine I was agreeing with

It happens.

About all you can do is call a judge and allow them to make the call. Unfortunately that does mean that judge will have to watch the match and for a judge or TO, they are often getting pulled in several directions so it's hard for them to make any call. It does take actual evidence. I have wondered empirically what actually equates to slow play for the purposes of a judge that would make that call? If most of your ships and squadrons are enjoined, bad news, that takes time.

Hell I've had people run to the bathroom during a match <shrug>, all in all I just take a breath and fly casual. Sure that one turn you might bag X, but you know what, you just might not and you might instead lose Y. This is why we roll dice.

My advice is to be only outcomes-focused about it and never personalize it, which is to say this:

• If you notice things are going very slowly, say something early to the other player. Politely. I also find it helps to say something along the lines of "the pace is noticeably slower than everyone else I have played in tournaments in the past X years" to make clear you have a base of comparison and it's not personal.
• With one hour left, if you aren't done with turn 3 and clear into turn 4, get the judge immediately. Don't be hostile about it, but point out how long your opponent is taking to play (especially if you have examples of unimportant and non-critical moves taking forever), and express your concern to the judge you are being slow played.
• Then, with 15 minutes left, if it's going to be a problem and impact points, speak up again.

This sort of track record puts you in a very good position at the end to say to the judge "this next turn is decisive for me. You can see x, y, and z. I was slow played, which is against the rules (also reference the rules!) and I'm being denied these points". You have to force the judge to make that call, and you need to have given him all the ammunition far in advance to do so. If a guy is a consistent problem, the TO also often knows already.

The other point is to never personalize it. You can point out that someone can be intentionally slow playing and being discourteous per the unsportsmanlike conduct rules without the point being to screw over the other person. It's just they needed that much time to make the decision! But they still deliberately took 10 minutes to move that Gozanti in the corner that was two speed 5 moves away from every other ship in the game. If that player was told repeatedly they were being slow and continued to choose to do this, I think you have a strong argument for slow play, but again, it's going to be important that you spoke up early and often.

So that would be my advice - be assertive without being rude, don't personalize it to the other guy, and ask the judge only for a reasonable adjustment (e.g. I am first player and have that ISD with 1 shield and 2 hull double arc'ed, can I roll the dice for just that since it's material and I will ignore the rest unless my opponent then wants the entire turn?).

It's the "not personalizing it" piece that's kind of an art that not everyone has, though, unfortunately. And how it comes across can also be very dependent on the chemistry at the table.

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

It's the "not personalizing it" piece that's kind of an art that not everyone has, though, unfortunately. And how it comes across can also be very dependent on the chemistry at the table.

To be fair, that is also part of saying it early and clearly, while just comparing your baseline to your past experience and (if possible) other games going on at that time. If you just keep silent and say something at the end, if comes across to the other guy like you are trying to screw him (and justifiably, he didn't know!). But unless the other guy is a d-bag of epic proportions, like my good friend Drunk Tarkin, if you have been saying it repeatedly throughout the course of the game, they (or spectators) will have to concede you were politely making that point repeatedly and still got jammed.

It also gives you a lot more ammo for your "I'd just like to finish our game, or at least the most important parts of it", because if the other guy then says "No, I played slowly, you spoke up repeatedly, but you still have to deal with it" or words to that effect, that's kind of actual evidence of deliberate slow play in and of itself; he knew, he did it anyways, and he did it in a way that harmed you in the tournament. If that's not the definition of unsportsmanlike, I don't know what is.

I've been through quite a bit of EQ material over the course of the past few years, and when you're under the stress of the game itself, making sure that you're calm enough to speak well is definitely the hard part. Add in some lower levels of sleep the night before (likely), and late/skipped meals. Yeah, its tough. If you can practice what Rienholt describes though, you're golden.

1 hour ago, Reinholt said:

To be fair, that is also part of saying it early and clearly, while just comparing your baseline to your past experience and (if possible) other games going on at that time. If you just keep silent and say something at the end, if comes across to the other guy like you are trying to screw him (and justifiably, he didn't know!). But unless the other guy is a d-bag of epic proportions, like my good friend Drunk Tarkin, if you have been saying it repeatedly throughout the course of the game, they (or spectators) will have to concede you were politely making that point repeatedly and still got jammed.

It also gives you a lot more ammo for your "I'd just like to finish our game, or at least the most important parts of it", because if the other guy then says "No, I played slowly, you spoke up repeatedly, but you still have to deal with it" or words to that effect, that's kind of actual evidence of deliberate slow play in and of itself; he knew, he did it anyways, and he did it in a way that harmed you in the tournament. If that's not the definition of unsportsmanlike, I don't know what is.

At that point we reach into chapter 4 of my book, "Trolling Trolls" in which I speak on the many merits of judicious d*ck kicks. Its all about taking the ball out of their court.

What are you guys afraid of?

Why don't you simply look your opponent in the eye and tell him this is too slow? Then repeat as needed. Nag, nag, nag. Call over the to if that's required.

You're not 'that guy' if you do it in a decent fashion. Not if it's at a non-casual tourney.

2 hours ago, Green Knight said:

You're not 'that guy' if you do it in a decent fashion. Not if it's at a non-casual tourney.

And that right there, is the key - a non-casual tourney.

There was quite a lot of discussion about this in the netrunner community a while back, where you basically have an hour to play both matches (it's an asymmetric game). There were a couple of deck archetypes for one side of the table, that were VERY slow to play, meaning if you did play those, you'd HAVE to take a very fast deck for your other half, to make sure you didn't go to time. There were a fair few people who moaned about this, but part of the skill of playing in a tournament is time management and being able to make decisions quickly. If you take a horribly grindy IG prison deck, you need to be able to play it at lightening speed to make up for the number of turns you will take playing it. If you can't do that, then it's not the right deck for you personally to take to a tournament. You need to know how your deck plays so that you can make decisions quickly on the fly, and know they are the right ones, something you get through practice.

In a similar vein, if you aren't able to make decisions quickly in a regionals setting, you need to learn how to do it. In effect, it's no different to not being great at double arcing, not good at squadron placing, not being good at eyeballing ranges, etc, it's a skill that is required for a tournament setting. If you can't do it, then you need to take a less decision heavy fleet. Whilst there are differences between netrunner and armada (good luck getting 50 practice games in with a single list before a tourney!), at a non-casual tourney level, if someone does not have the ability to play at a sufficient speed, they should be penalised for it in the same way they will be penalised by their poor double arcing skills.

Put on your best Thrawn impersonation and whenever they take too long, just whisper "Foolish mistake" or "Just as planned". Make sure it is just loud enough so they can hear it to make their skin really crawl. And then walk around to appreciate the other games and when you come back to yours, tell him how you will win and in how many moves. Make sure your moves are very fast to make up for the lost time. Paint yourself blue, get red contacts, and get an Imperial commander outfit to complete the look.

As a TO this is a fair report and while trying to force the other player to play faster is not too easy, I was not allowed to bring a cattle prod into the store, we will find ways to do it.

Just tell us and we will endevor to resolve the issue. The earlier the better.

Ackbar, Mc30, sensor teams

Much harder to slow play when theyve lost ships since turn two...

Its genuinely one of the reason I play hyperaggressive builds.

That, and I enjoy inflicting pain....